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It is not possible to clean up bitcoin. Even if it moved entirely to renewable energy it would still be a massive opportunity cost. There are productive uses

by worik 6y ago

It is not possible to clean up bitcoin. Even if it moved entirely to renewable energy it would still be a massive opportunity cost. There are productive uses that energy could be put to. Bitcoin is not productive. Using gigawatts to process a few transactions a second, when existing financial frameworks can process millions of transactions a seconds at a fraction of the energy input means that bitcoin is always a massive waste.

fastball 6y ago
Layer 2 scaling solutions?
- 988747 6y ago
  They are like Yeti: everybody talks about them, but no one has actually seen them.
  - anonporridge 6y ago
    People are using lightning right now. Your ignorance of it isn't proof of absence.
nprz 6y ago
There is utility in the bitcoin network that is not found in existing financial systems (censorship-resistant, seizure-resistant, borderless, and pseudonymous). And If you are thinking about the energy consumption of btc on a per transaction basis you are misunderstanding that the btc network should be thought of as a settlement layer, rather than a payment layer. > Bitcoin is therefore best understood as a high-integrity utility-scale settlement network, similar to Fedwire [...] No surprise that like other real-time gross settlement systems, Bitcoin is a suitable base upon which other payments networks can be built. These are numerous, but they include off-chain transactions at exchanges, near-chain solutions like Lightning, sidechains with new trust models like Liquid and Rootstock, and smart contract platforms like Blockstack that rely on Bitcoin’s security.[0] The myopic focus placed on the bitcoin networks energy consumption has always seemed absurd to me. Considering all the plastic junk manufactured in China, shipped on giant container ships all across the globe, emitting vast amounts of carbon, only to be thrown away a year later. To me, this alternative monetary systems provides far more utility to humanity than some plastic funko pop figurine. But the latter slips under the radar and the former attracts huge amounts of criticism. It's almost as if there is some concerted effort tarnish the public opinion of bitcoin. [0] https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming-bitcoin-energy-debate https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming...
- UncleMeat 6y ago
  > the btc network should be thought of as a settlement layer, rather than a payment layer This ruins all of the stuff you mention. Or at least restricts these nice features to the rich. People don't have access to these features if they are only used indirectly through the major institutions they work with.
  - nprz 6y ago
    All of those features remain intact, even with the eventual creation of a payment layer. There is nothing to prevent someone from transacting directly on the blockchain.
    - UncleMeat 6y ago
      Except the high fees due to limited throughput and the absolutely gargantuan CO2 emissions, which are the topic of this thread. You can't say it is a settlement layer in one breath and then immediately turn around and say that no really everybody truly has access.
      - nprz 6y ago
        Yes, that’s how the btc network works, that’s what censorship-resistant means. You would primarily transact on a payment layer, which true, may not have all the features of the base layer. But you also have the ability to opt-in and transact directly on the blockchain and get all those nice features listed above, however the transaction fee would be higher and the speed of the transaction slower.
        UncleMeat 6y ago
        For some definition of "higher" and "slower", yes. The scale of BTC is such that if we distributed transactions evenly across the 7b people on the planet, you get one transaction per five years. The current mining payout is 6.5BTC per block, or roughly $350,000. We are fitting around 1,500 transactions in a block, meaning each transaction costs $300. The price will only rise as more miners join and there is more demand for space in a block. The international poverty line is such that a single transaction would cost somebody at that line half their year's wages. All that good stuff won't be available to the masses. Just the rich and powerful. Hooray.
Muromec 6y ago
Existing financial frameworks sit on top of the whole lot of trust-providing institutions, that include governments and us army. If you would compare energy consumption of all that, bitcoin could be cheaper alternative. Maybe.
- qqqwerty 6y ago
  Bitcoin sits on top of those very same institutions as well. The only thing stopping criminal gangs from stealing the keys to your wallet forcibly at gunpoint is the justice system. And the blockchain could not exist without the massive government subsidized investments in network infrastructure.
simonebrunozzi 6y ago
You seem unaware of proof-of-stake and other initiatives that should significantly reduce Bitcoin's footprint.
- brazzy 6y ago
  ...which are unlikely to ever get implemented because adoption of such an "initiative" would have to be decided by miners, and that decision would immediately make their very expensive ASIC hardware completely worthless.
- worik 6y ago
  That is not bitcoin
soheil 6y ago
The mere technological advance bitcoin has enabled via blockchain alone has led to creation of smart contracts and an explosion of innovation in the space, no doubt all this will inevitably lead to massive productivity gains. Maybe bitcoin itself won't be the final answer but something inspired by it will be.

by worik 6y ago

fastball 6y ago

Layer 2 scaling solutions?

988747 6y ago
They are like Yeti: everybody talks about them, but no one has actually seen them.
- anonporridge 6y ago
  People are using lightning right now. Your ignorance of it isn't proof of absence.

nprz 6y ago

There is utility in the bitcoin network that is not found in existing financial systems (censorship-resistant, seizure-resistant, borderless, and pseudonymous). And If you are thinking about the energy consumption of btc on a per transaction basis you are misunderstanding that the btc network should be thought of as a settlement layer, rather than a payment layer. > Bitcoin is therefore best understood as a high-integrity utility-scale settlement network, similar to Fedwire [...] No surprise that like other real-time gross settlement systems, Bitcoin is a suitable base upon which other payments networks can be built. These are numerous, but they include off-chain transactions at exchanges, near-chain solutions like Lightning, sidechains with new trust models like Liquid and Rootstock, and smart contract platforms like Blockstack that rely on Bitcoin’s security.[0] The myopic focus placed on the bitcoin networks energy consumption has always seemed absurd to me. Considering all the plastic junk manufactured in China, shipped on giant container ships all across the globe, emitting vast amounts of carbon, only to be thrown away a year later. To me, this alternative monetary systems provides far more utility to humanity than some plastic funko pop figurine. But the latter slips under the radar and the former attracts huge amounts of criticism. It's almost as if there is some concerted effort tarnish the public opinion of bitcoin. [0] https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming-bitcoin-energy-debate https://www.coindesk.com/frustrating-maddening-all-consuming...

UncleMeat 6y ago
> the btc network should be thought of as a settlement layer, rather than a payment layer This ruins all of the stuff you mention. Or at least restricts these nice features to the rich. People don't have access to these features if they are only used indirectly through the major institutions they work with.
- nprz 6y ago
  All of those features remain intact, even with the eventual creation of a payment layer. There is nothing to prevent someone from transacting directly on the blockchain.
  - UncleMeat 6y ago
    Except the high fees due to limited throughput and the absolutely gargantuan CO2 emissions, which are the topic of this thread. You can't say it is a settlement layer in one breath and then immediately turn around and say that no really everybody truly has access.
    - nprz 6y ago
      Yes, that’s how the btc network works, that’s what censorship-resistant means. You would primarily transact on a payment layer, which true, may not have all the features of the base layer. But you also have the ability to opt-in and transact directly on the blockchain and get all those nice features listed above, however the transaction fee would be higher and the speed of the transaction slower.
      - UncleMeat 6y ago
        For some definition of "higher" and "slower", yes. The scale of BTC is such that if we distributed transactions evenly across the 7b people on the planet, you get one transaction per five years. The current mining payout is 6.5BTC per block, or roughly $350,000. We are fitting around 1,500 transactions in a block, meaning each transaction costs $300. The price will only rise as more miners join and there is more demand for space in a block. The international poverty line is such that a single transaction would cost somebody at that line half their year's wages. All that good stuff won't be available to the masses. Just the rich and powerful. Hooray.

Muromec 6y ago

Existing financial frameworks sit on top of the whole lot of trust-providing institutions, that include governments and us army. If you would compare energy consumption of all that, bitcoin could be cheaper alternative. Maybe.

qqqwerty 6y ago
Bitcoin sits on top of those very same institutions as well. The only thing stopping criminal gangs from stealing the keys to your wallet forcibly at gunpoint is the justice system. And the blockchain could not exist without the massive government subsidized investments in network infrastructure.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago

You seem unaware of proof-of-stake and other initiatives that should significantly reduce Bitcoin's footprint.

brazzy 6y ago
...which are unlikely to ever get implemented because adoption of such an "initiative" would have to be decided by miners, and that decision would immediately make their very expensive ASIC hardware completely worthless.
worik 6y ago
That is not bitcoin

soheil 6y ago

The mere technological advance bitcoin has enabled via blockchain alone has led to creation of smart contracts and an explosion of innovation in the space, no doubt all this will inevitably lead to massive productivity gains. Maybe bitcoin itself won't be the final answer but something inspired by it will be.