5 ms·

Tesla might not have dumped. But I'd be very interested to see Musk's personal trading accounts, and the trading accounts of his close associates.

by phire 5y ago

novaRom 5y ago
This is why SEC department exists: sec.gov Musk should be investigated, this is not the first time his actions lead to massive market perturbations.
- seunosewa 5y ago
  I bet he is already being investigated. It is highly unlikely that regulators haven't noticed what he is up to.
slg 5y ago
It is incredibly hard to imagine that the upside in Musk's personal Bitcoin stake, whatever it is, is anywhere close to approaching his personal stake in Tesla. Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. It would be unbelievably stupid to jeopardize the value of the Tesla stock to pump up the value of his Bitcoin holdings. Some of these anti-Musk conspiracy theories are truly crazy especially considering the man is so out there that you don't even need to fabricate weird theories like this to make him look bad.
- capableweb 5y ago
  > It is incredibly hard to image that the upside in Musk's personal Bitcoin stake, whatever it is, is anywhere close to approaching his personal stake in Tesla. Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. It would be unbelievably stupid to jeopardize the value of the Tesla stock to pump up the value of his Bitcoin holdings. I think it's fair to suspect something here though, and question Musks behavior these last few years. Yes, originally he wanted to save the world with Tesla and also find a new world with SpaceX (at least that was the outspoken goals), but his current dealings that skirt on legality of things, gives another side of him. Some people who seemed to be driven by the goodness of their heart ends up chasing the same money-dragon as many before them. It's not impossible.
  - slg 5y ago
    I am not judging the goodness of his heart or whatever. I am simply stating that this theorized plan of him using Tesla as a pawn to increase the value of his Bitcoin holdings is both an idiotic plan and one that there is no evidence of actually existing. The only reason anyone would believe it is because they are forsaking critical thinking in favor of their bias against Musk that exists for both legitimate and illegitimate reasons.
  - dTal 5y ago
    >seemed to be driven by the goodness of their heart ...we are talking about Elon Musk, right? The one who got rich founding the definitely-ethical, not-at-all-shady company PayPal? That Elon Musk?
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    You can both want to change the world (as much as you can) and make money. They aren't mutually exclusive no matter what Marxists will tell you.
- freeone3000 5y ago
  But did he jeapordize the value of his Tesla stock? At all? The price of Tesla stock is entirely disconnected from the worth of the company, and seems to be doing just fine.
- loulouxiv 5y ago
  Remember this guy tweeted "funds secured to make Tesla private at 420$ per share" to take revenge on Tesla shorters blaming him for smoking marijuana on TV
  - slg 5y ago
    You are equating a stupid in the heat of the moment Tweet by one person to a premeditated months long conspiracy by multiple people in Tesla's leadership. The two aren't equivalent.
- phire 5y ago
  Sure, his net-worth might be higher if this "tesla dabbling with bitcoin" never happened... but he made those tweets anyway, and any effects on tesla stock happened. Maybe there was no master plan, but it would be a lot better for his personal net-worth if he went long/short on bitcoin before each tweet.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    No it wouldn't. The best thing for his net worth is to make Tesla valuable, and holding loads of Bitcoin while saying Bitcoin's not great is not what you would do if that's your motivation.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  > Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. For now. Spacex is going to be the most valuable company on Earth and Mars.
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    ...expanding a bit, Spacex could be the first company domiciled off of the planet if/when they build a private space station. What tax laws apply to artificial satellites used as "HQ" these days?
  - staticman2 5y ago
    "For some people... Tesla is a religion."
    - anonAndOn 5y ago
      “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.” ― Shel Silverstein
- tessierashpool 5y ago
  It is incredibly hard to imagine that the upside in Musk's personal Bitcoin stake, whatever it is, is anywhere close to approaching his personal stake in Tesla. Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. It would be unbelievably stupid to jeopardize the value of the Tesla stock to pump up the value of his Bitcoin holdings. this is a good point, but if I held Tesla, I would probably prefer cash. it could be that Tesla's greatest value is as a prop for BTC scams. Teslas catch on fire randomly. Their roofs fall off sometimes. Their self-driving tech doesn't work as well as people expect, and when people get that expectation wrong, it sometimes results in them dying. The bulk of the company's revenue comes from carbon credits. maybe he's pumping and dumping Bitcoin because he doesn't expect his wealth to last, and if he sold a bunch of Tesla stock, people would notice. a little scam to set aside a nest egg just in case the other scam doesn't pan out. the weaknesses in this argument are SpaceX and PayPal, so I'm not totally convinced of my own position here, but I haven't seen any good counterarguments otherwise. he could also just find scams fun for their own sake.
  - ecpottinger 5y ago
    You better sell your GM stock then since that seems mostly to be happening to Bolts lately. Second thought, if you think people are dying driving in cars you better sell all car stocks.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  > Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. That's why they're not actual net worth. They are not liquid and will almost never be. Private pump and dump schemes generate real cash, that can be used. Musk can never leverage his Tesla stocks to do anything useful near the theoretical amount he has. better get some real cash that can buy actual yachts.
thedudeabides5 5y ago
Or better yet, did they move into Dogecoin, which apparently uses a lot less energy. Setting up the inevitable 'use Doge instead, it's better for the environment'
- snotrockets 5y ago
  Doesn't matter: considering that all cryptocurrencies have significant environmental impact, using them would force ESG-screening funds to drop the company.
  - svachalek 5y ago
    Bitcoin is deliberately inefficient to a horrifying degree but it is not "all cryptocurrencies". Most modern designs are thousands or millions of times more efficient.
    - snotrockets 5y ago
      And even at that cost, they are are still an environmental disaster.
    - mavhc 5y ago
      And thus worth 1000s to 100000s of times less money. Bitcoin is about turning electricity into bits, the trick is the decreasing amount of bitcoin, thus get in at the base of the pyramid to make more money
- FabHK 5y ago
  Does it use less energy intrinsically, or because it hasn't gone up enough yet, triggering more hashing with a concomitant increase in difficulty and energy use?
Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
They may have bought more...
smabie 5y ago
Why would Musk fuck around with a personal trading account? He probably owns some coins personally, but it would be an insignificant fraction of his networth (which is tied to Tesla). There's no conspiracy here.
snotrockets 5y ago
They did dump at least 10%: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-26/tesla-beats-on-profit-leaves-delivery-outlook-unchanged https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-26/tesla-bea...
rawtxapp 5y ago
Yep, there were some big movements on the blockchain and the exchanges prior to the public tweet.
dheera 5y ago
Why does it matter? Manipulation is de facto legal in crypto, because no legal jurisdiction has absolute control of it, and people getting involved need to factor that in as a rule of the game and optimize their own strategies taking that into account.

Tesla might not have dumped. But I'd be very interested to see Musk's personal trading accounts, and the trading accounts of his close associates.

by phire 5y ago

Tesla might not have dumped. But I'd be very interested to see Musk's personal trading accounts, and the trading accounts of his close associates.

novaRom 5y ago

This is why SEC department exists: sec.gov Musk should be investigated, this is not the first time his actions lead to massive market perturbations.

seunosewa 5y ago
I bet he is already being investigated. It is highly unlikely that regulators haven't noticed what he is up to.

slg 5y ago

It is incredibly hard to imagine that the upside in Musk's personal Bitcoin stake, whatever it is, is anywhere close to approaching his personal stake in Tesla. Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. It would be unbelievably stupid to jeopardize the value of the Tesla stock to pump up the value of his Bitcoin holdings. Some of these anti-Musk conspiracy theories are truly crazy especially considering the man is so out there that you don't even need to fabricate weird theories like this to make him look bad.

capableweb 5y ago
> It is incredibly hard to image that the upside in Musk's personal Bitcoin stake, whatever it is, is anywhere close to approaching his personal stake in Tesla. Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. It would be unbelievably stupid to jeopardize the value of the Tesla stock to pump up the value of his Bitcoin holdings. I think it's fair to suspect something here though, and question Musks behavior these last few years. Yes, originally he wanted to save the world with Tesla and also find a new world with SpaceX (at least that was the outspoken goals), but his current dealings that skirt on legality of things, gives another side of him. Some people who seemed to be driven by the goodness of their heart ends up chasing the same money-dragon as many before them. It's not impossible.
- slg 5y ago
  I am not judging the goodness of his heart or whatever. I am simply stating that this theorized plan of him using Tesla as a pawn to increase the value of his Bitcoin holdings is both an idiotic plan and one that there is no evidence of actually existing. The only reason anyone would believe it is because they are forsaking critical thinking in favor of their bias against Musk that exists for both legitimate and illegitimate reasons.
- dTal 5y ago
  >seemed to be driven by the goodness of their heart ...we are talking about Elon Musk, right? The one who got rich founding the definitely-ethical, not-at-all-shady company PayPal? That Elon Musk?
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  You can both want to change the world (as much as you can) and make money. They aren't mutually exclusive no matter what Marxists will tell you.
freeone3000 5y ago
But did he jeapordize the value of his Tesla stock? At all? The price of Tesla stock is entirely disconnected from the worth of the company, and seems to be doing just fine.
loulouxiv 5y ago
Remember this guy tweeted "funds secured to make Tesla private at 420$ per share" to take revenge on Tesla shorters blaming him for smoking marijuana on TV
- slg 5y ago
  You are equating a stupid in the heat of the moment Tweet by one person to a premeditated months long conspiracy by multiple people in Tesla's leadership. The two aren't equivalent.
phire 5y ago
Sure, his net-worth might be higher if this "tesla dabbling with bitcoin" never happened... but he made those tweets anyway, and any effects on tesla stock happened. Maybe there was no master plan, but it would be a lot better for his personal net-worth if he went long/short on bitcoin before each tweet.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  No it wouldn't. The best thing for his net worth is to make Tesla valuable, and holding loads of Bitcoin while saying Bitcoin's not great is not what you would do if that's your motivation.
anonAndOn 5y ago
> Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. For now. Spacex is going to be the most valuable company on Earth and Mars.
- anonAndOn 5y ago
  ...expanding a bit, Spacex could be the first company domiciled off of the planet if/when they build a private space station. What tax laws apply to artificial satellites used as "HQ" these days?
- staticman2 5y ago
  "For some people... Tesla is a religion."
  - anonAndOn 5y ago
    “Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me... Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.” ― Shel Silverstein
tessierashpool 5y ago
It is incredibly hard to imagine that the upside in Musk's personal Bitcoin stake, whatever it is, is anywhere close to approaching his personal stake in Tesla. Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. It would be unbelievably stupid to jeopardize the value of the Tesla stock to pump up the value of his Bitcoin holdings. this is a good point, but if I held Tesla, I would probably prefer cash. it could be that Tesla's greatest value is as a prop for BTC scams. Teslas catch on fire randomly. Their roofs fall off sometimes. Their self-driving tech doesn't work as well as people expect, and when people get that expectation wrong, it sometimes results in them dying. The bulk of the company's revenue comes from carbon credits. maybe he's pumping and dumping Bitcoin because he doesn't expect his wealth to last, and if he sold a bunch of Tesla stock, people would notice. a little scam to set aside a nest egg just in case the other scam doesn't pan out. the weaknesses in this argument are SpaceX and PayPal, so I'm not totally convinced of my own position here, but I haven't seen any good counterarguments otherwise. he could also just find scams fun for their own sake.
- ecpottinger 5y ago
  You better sell your GM stock then since that seems mostly to be happening to Bolts lately. Second thought, if you think people are dying driving in cars you better sell all car stocks.
Aperocky 5y ago
> Something like 70% of his net worth is Tesla stock. That's why they're not actual net worth. They are not liquid and will almost never be. Private pump and dump schemes generate real cash, that can be used. Musk can never leverage his Tesla stocks to do anything useful near the theoretical amount he has. better get some real cash that can buy actual yachts.

thedudeabides5 5y ago

Or better yet, did they move into Dogecoin, which apparently uses a lot less energy. Setting up the inevitable 'use Doge instead, it's better for the environment'

snotrockets 5y ago
Doesn't matter: considering that all cryptocurrencies have significant environmental impact, using them would force ESG-screening funds to drop the company.
- svachalek 5y ago
  Bitcoin is deliberately inefficient to a horrifying degree but it is not "all cryptocurrencies". Most modern designs are thousands or millions of times more efficient.
  - snotrockets 5y ago
    And even at that cost, they are are still an environmental disaster.
  - mavhc 5y ago
    And thus worth 1000s to 100000s of times less money. Bitcoin is about turning electricity into bits, the trick is the decreasing amount of bitcoin, thus get in at the base of the pyramid to make more money
FabHK 5y ago
Does it use less energy intrinsically, or because it hasn't gone up enough yet, triggering more hashing with a concomitant increase in difficulty and energy use?

Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago

They may have bought more...

smabie 5y ago

Why would Musk fuck around with a personal trading account? He probably owns some coins personally, but it would be an insignificant fraction of his networth (which is tied to Tesla). There's no conspiracy here.

snotrockets 5y ago

They did dump at least 10%: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-26/tesla-beats-on-profit-leaves-delivery-outlook-unchanged https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-04-26/tesla-bea...

rawtxapp 5y ago

Yep, there were some big movements on the blockchain and the exchanges prior to the public tweet.

dheera 5y ago

Why does it matter? Manipulation is de facto legal in crypto, because no legal jurisdiction has absolute control of it, and people getting involved need to factor that in as a rule of the game and optimize their own strategies taking that into account.