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So multiple people have noted that the environmental concerns were exactly the same and very well known when Tesla originally started taking bitcoin as payment.

So multiple people have noted that the environmental concerns were exactly the same and very well known when Tesla originally started taking bitcoin as payment. So what changed? Well I think the biggest notable difference between then and now is then bitcoin seemed to be going only up. Now it seems to be going down. When bitcoin continues to steadily go down, it is a significant concern because Tesla will have to take losses on the cars it sells and will have reduced gross margins, which will result in their stock price tanking. Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. It is probably the right decision (although certainly covered up with false reasoning) but he should have never reached this stage. Tesla should have never taken bitcoin without provisions for automatically converting it into one of the currencies it pays its costs in.

hellbannedguy 5y ago
Or, did someone higher up leak information to Musk on upcoming regulation? I guess we might know if Musk sells his coins. (And no--I have no evidence. I just know wealthy boys get information. Even the people who didn't like Musk did 180's after his ingratiating performance Saturday Night Live. For the record, I have always liked Musk.)
rawtxapp 5y ago
That doesn't make sense, they are still holding a very large amount of it, why would they put this out and decrease the value of their own holdings?
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  Isn't it possible they're dumping the rest of their holdings?
  - Applejinx 5y ago
    That or they are certain they will get burned sooner or later, and therefore even if they tank the value of their holdings it's at a time of their choosing and with an amount that's predictable. Contrast with the scenario where they keep doing it, steadily increasing their bitcoin holdings and even seeing the proportion of sales using bitcoin increase… and THEN hit a wall, not of their own choosing, and see the value collapse. Even if they are not dumping their holdings at all, there's still a case to be made for pulling a plug at a time they control, over an amount they control. If it collapses, they can put a hard limit on how much they lose: that being, the previous value of their entire bitcoin holdings.
  - tracyhenry 5y ago
    The statement in the tweet said that they won't sell.
    - mannykannot 5y ago
      That is as amendable as the policy of accepting payment in bitcoin was - and right now, with Tesla having a nontrivial position in bitcoin and with Musk being an influencer of bitcoin price, it is in the company's interest for him to say that it is not going to sell, even if it reverses that policy tomorrow.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- sm4rk0 5y ago
  To buy more at a lower price?
dalbasal 5y ago
All it means is that they're effectively "holding bitcoin," or otherwise exposed to its fluctuations. They're doing that anyway. It's not really different from holding forex, stocks or any other risky asset.
usaphp 5y ago
What percent of Tesla customers are buying their cars with bitcoins? I doubt it’s more than 1 out of 100, I think it was just a publicity stunt both times, media talked about Tesla when they started accepting them and will talk about them again when they decided to stop it.
- qayxc 5y ago
  It was a classic pump-and-dump if you ask me. Step 1: purchase $1.5Bn in Bitcoin Step 2: make an announcement that will likely result in a rising valuation (it briefly went up by ~20% just because Musk added #bitcoin to his bio on Twitter...) Step 3: sell 10% of your bitcoin at a profit of >$272M in Q1 Step 4: wait for the market to go up again, then proceed with Step 3 It's less risky to invest in a highly volatile, unregulated market if you have the means to somewhat steer the market just by making an announcement or have your company's figurehead add a hashtag on Twitter...
  - lanstin 5y ago
    Like him or hate him, I don't think you can tar him with the "figurehead" brush.
    - qayxc 5y ago
      It's a figure of speech and meant to be completely neutral and independent of the actual person. Just like "the face of the company", e.g. Pat Gelsinger in the case of Intel or Tim Cook for Apple.
      - alisonkisk 5y ago
        "figurehead" is a word with a meaning. "Head" and "face" have different meanings.
      - CydeWeys 5y ago
        "Face of the company" and "figurehead" have different meanings. The latter is pejorative. From the dictionary: "a person who is head of a group, company, etc., in title but actually has no real authority or responsibility".
dmarcos 5y ago
This has changed: “Private-equity firm revives zombie fossil-fuel power plant to mine bitcoin” https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/05/private-equity-firm-revives-zombie-fossil-fuel-power-plant-to-mine-bitcoin/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/05/private-equity-f...
- maxerickson 5y ago
  That plant was restarted in 2017 and has had a mining data center at least since early 2020.
  - dmarcos 5y ago
    Scale and expansion plans only became available on recent S4 filing. That’s new info. Tesla probably doesn’t want to contribute to the trend and hence the change of heart.
    - maxerickson 5y ago
      A relatively small SPAC caused them to realize the obvious? If that is the case, what was going on before?
      - dmarcos 5y ago
        I think it's probably indicative of a trend that Tesla doesn't want to incentivize any further. Tesla's mission is all about moving away from fossil fuels. Prior, lean was towards renewable sources like hydro because of lower cost of surplus energy.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      Agreed. And for the cynics: Tesla is gonna lose goodwill and clean energy cred if their brand is tied to stuff like this. It became increasingly clear Bitcoin is overall not in Tesla’s interests.
      - asddubs 5y ago
myth_buster 5y ago
Now it seems to be going down. When bitcoin continues to steadily go down, it is a significant concern because Tesla will have to take losses on the cars it sells and will have reduced gross margins, which will result in their stock price tanking. Doesn't compute. If Euro/USD goes down by few basis points would one stop selling cars priced in euro? They can always price cars based on BTC's price and liquidate it to fiat or cryptocurrency of their choice.
- andreilys 5y ago
  If Euro/USD goes down by few basis points would one stop selling cars priced in euro? Btc swings can be +/-20% a day, so not exactly a great comparison. Also currency hedging is a thing that many companies employ to normalize profits. I’m sure there’s a BTC equivalent for this but the volatility would make it unreliable most likely
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Stable currencies may move a few basis points from day to day. BTC can move hundreds or thousands of basis points.
  - myth_buster 5y ago
    What I'm saying is that they can sell cars in BTC without any volatility exposure. The price going down is not the reason for them deciding against selling cars in BTC but the energy subsidies.
- brianwawok 5y ago
  Except they also had 2? Billion in Bitcoin holdings. So the float up and down had an impact?
  - myth_buster 5y ago
    They didn't sell their $1.5B BTC.
- NicoJuicy 5y ago
tshaddox 5y ago
> Now it seems to be going down. You mean just over the last month?
banbanbang 5y ago
That’s cute. Tesla depends more on credits that they sell than money they “make” on cars. Economically speaking they are not an automaker. They’re reg credit seller and car is just the vehicle (pun intended) to capture rent. I don’t even blame Elon Muks. I blame the gov’t and economists for creating such a stupid ineffective system in the first place.
codeulike 5y ago
the biggest notable difference between then and now is then bitcoin seemed to be going only up. Now it seems to be going down Thats not a notable difference - it goes up and down all the time. Its renowned for its volatility. You can hardly say 'bitcoin seemed to be going only up' with a straight face - its been a rollercoaster since day 1.
- B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
  > since day 1. I seem to remember that back then it was more "When you're down so low, the only way is up". I should have grabbed a few score of those BTC for pocket change, but did not bother. Yeah, I know.
  - RangerScience 5y ago
    Someday, in the future: Child: Parent, parent, where does our generational wealth come from? Parent: Well you see my child, back in 2012, I didn't buy a pizza...
  - edoceo 5y ago
    Yea, my hind-sight portfolio is really kicking ass.
  - anthony_romeo 5y ago
    The advice I remember was: “If it’s low, buy. If it’s high, buy.”
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Since Day 1 - Bitcoin was worth 1000+ Bitcoins to 1 USD. Yesterday it took $59,000 USD to buy 1 Bitcoin. It's had a few sharp downs. It's had a few long plateaus of a year or so. But - from the perspective of yesterday going back a few months - it certainly seemed to only go up. If the S&P was up over 59,000,000x in 12 years, people would say the S&P only goes up... I mean, they already say "stonks only go up".
  - corin_ 5y ago
t8e56vd4ih 5y ago
> Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. so musk realized finally that bitcoin is volatile. he's an idiot. his stupid appearance on snl confirms this perspective for me. why are so many people listening to this dimwit. he has nothing of value to offer or say. he should keep his stupid mouth shut. he's worse than trump in that regard.
adventured 5y ago
> Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. It's not going to matter. If Bitcoin is going down persistently it means we're on the back side of this global asset mania (which the commodity bubble may be signaling, that we're in or close to the 9th inning), and Tesla's stock is going with it under all scenarios. $900 to $589 is already telling an obvious story. Granted it's not just Tesla's bubble that is well over, the cloud bubble has ended as well (just wait until you see how low eg Snowflake goes, top to bottom). Amusingly, Bitcoin is likely to hold its value better than Tesla, in the case of the asset bubbles giving out. The market will look to value Tesla a bit closer to fundamentals (already happening), which is another 70-90% down for Tesla. At some point Tesla will be valued based on cashflow, profit production, and they'll never be able to support a $500b valuation; whereas Bitcoin can support something like a trillion dollar valuation globally (even if it takes more time to hold that ground persistently). I can't wait to go value hunting in the cloud again, as in March of 2020. Tesla won't be on that shopping list.
- xwdv 5y ago
  What is on your list? NET? DDOG? CRWD?
- onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
  Why is the commodity market signaling we're close to the 9th inning?
lettergram 5y ago
I disagree... Pretty sure he saw this now deleted thread on Reddit /r/dogecoin https://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/nb1rki/cryptocurrency_energy_usage_per_transaction/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/nb1rki/cryptocurr... From ElegantPoop: > Well, it would appear by this image we have ourselves a sub 1% of bitcoin per transaction. Winning.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- munk-a 5y ago
  I mean, if there's one thing we can all definitely agree on it's that dogecoin has no where to go but up at this point. Winning indeed. "Hey, poppa, why is our currency named doge coin?" 'Well son, a long time ago there was this really cute shiba inu that became a bit of a meme and then the internet happened.'
  - broighbrobroigh 5y ago
    Dogecoin is neither deflationary, nor does it have a fixed supply. It's not going to be a thing beyond a lot of poor fools getting rekt when their techno king abandons it for his next meme fetish.
bedobi 5y ago
For that very reason, most businesses who accept bitcoin and other crypto (including Tesla, probably) don't actually keep the crypto, they immediately convert to traditional currency. On the other hand, Tesla is unique in that it literally went out and bought bitcoin to just sit on it, which is incredibly dumb.
- actuator 5y ago
  There is nothing dumb about what Musk and Tesla did, in fact it was for self gain. Look at the price when Tesla announced they bought bitcoin worth about a billion dollars. Even after the current fall, the price now is way higher than back then. Just the way Musk has been able to manipulate the whole market after investing his? and Tesla's money is just extraordinary. It was a strategic investment which has reaped money like anything in such a short span and they even used part of it to generate a positive component to their balance sheet in last quarter.
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    And now that its down, they're probably buying more. They can get 5-10B in it, then Elon can pump it up more.
    - godelski 5y ago
      A month later I'm sure Elon will be talking about how he sold solar roofs and batteries to miners and is again accepting BTC and Doge.
      - AustinDev 5y ago
        Or maybe he just adds ASICS to the gigs factories to get a certain level of control over the mining economy.
  - godelski 5y ago
    Honestly, when is the guy going to get charged by the SEC for market manipulation? It is fairly obvious he knows what he is doing with the crypto market and making a good chunk of change on it through his social media influence. But he also does it with Tesla (I know he got charged that one time but he's been a repeat offender).
nodesocket 5y ago
I am pro Tesla as a company and own a model Y, but this news was upsetting and frustrating to me. Exactly what changed from a few months ago when they announced their Bitcoin position and that they would accept payment? They knew damn well about mining in China being almost exclusively coal and that mining is extremely bad for the environment. On another note, I don't think anybody was able to buy a Tesla with Bitcoin. This was a false claim that never came to fruition. Some serious market manipulation here by Tesla and Elon.
- yks 5y ago
  The most reasonable explanation is that Tesla/Elon don't actually care about the environment and if it's going to suffer in their pursuit of whatever financial scheming and/or vanity, so be it.
  - Qwertious 5y ago
    Or he thinks that the best thing to do for the environment is to pump up Tesla by any means necessary.
- graphtrader 5y ago
  I have really lost a ton of respect for Elon in the past few week. If we were talking penny stocks, this is classic pump and dump behavior that should result in jail time. I mean how much attention does one person need.
birdyrooster 5y ago
Pump and dump
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  It says right there that they are holding onto their bitcoin assets. Assuming that's true, there's no way this is a pump and dump, because there was no dump.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - birdyrooster 5y ago
    Okay well then maybe not. I don’t imagine Elon would hurt TSLA to get a discount on BTC
  - cko 5y ago
    You can borrow against it, and that wouldn't be a taxable event. Not sure what % of your portfolio lenders allow though.
    - mumblemumble 5y ago
      It's not really about taxable events so much as possessing a financial interest. Using it as collateral doesn't get it off your balance sheet, nor does it negate the influence of any price swings. If anything, it intensifies them, since a downward swing (say, in response to a tweet saying you're no longer three rocket emoji Bitcoin, only two rocket emoji Bitcoin) might trigger a margin call.
rasputnik6502 5y ago
Decision to go into bitcoin was smart and also decision to back off was smart. Musk is the only person who can do or say two contradictory things and both are smart. He really is a genius
- cinntaile 5y ago
  You're giving him a bit too much credit. He should have never made Tesla invest money in BTC, that's just a bad PR move. Now they have to do damage control.
  - PleaseIgnacio 5y ago
    I think they’re being sarcastic.
Black101 5y ago
> So what changed? Well I think the biggest notable difference between then and now is then bitcoin seemed to be going only up. Now it seems to be going down. TSLA appears to follow the same curve as BTC ... but either way it doesn't make sense, because if you accept BTC payments, you can instantly transfer them to cash if you don't trust BTC.
- cableshaft 5y ago
  Well, guarantee after today, pretty much whoever held both bitcoin (and/or possibly other crypto) and Tesla stock, will be selling all of the Tesla stock, at minimum. He made a bunch of enemies today, intentional or not.
  - Black101 5y ago
    I've sold my TSLA weeks ago but I am keeping my crypto ;)
    - cableshaft 5y ago
      I never had TSLA because it never made sense to me why it was so high, but if I did I would definitely have sold it today. Was actually somewhat considering the new Model 3 for my next car, but now I'll look into other EVs instead. Still buying crypto.
  - belltaco 5y ago
    This seems so petty, he caused bitcoin and other crypto to go 5x. Maybe some very recent buyers are affected but the vast majority made out like bandits, and can lock in their profits by selling btc off now.
    - cableshaft 5y ago
      Bitcoin didn't go 5x just because of him. It was already on an upward trajectory, breaking new all-time-highs, and around 30k, if I remember correctly, when he made the announcement that Tesla bought bitcoin and is accepting it. It did jump up 6% the day he announced Tesla was accepting bitcoin, but he effectively undid all of that (and more, it went down around 12%) yesterday, as well as add more seeming legitimacy to the 'bitcoin is bad for the environment' line that the media has been pushing hard since it started shooting up again (they didn't give a shit when its price was low, even though not much has changed for energy use between then and now). Some people aren't just looking to make a quick buck, they want to see crypto become a more stable asset class, not just another pump and dump scheme (plenty of shitty alt-coins for pump and dump schemes). This one tweet put a lot more uncertainty into that (it shouldn't have, but it did), especially if it triggers a wave of 'well bitcoin is bad for the environment, so we better get out' from other entities. Also how would he not know bitcoin's energy usage before the first announcement? If he had done any due diligence at all he would have known this, so either they didn't do any research or it's a bullshit scapegoat to cover up the real reason they're backing out. In the long run I think Bitcoin will survive this, but in the short term it could prematurely kill (or at least significantly stunt) this current bull run and we could already be back on track for the next multi-year bear market, which I've been through twice now with bitcoin, and it sucks (good for accumulating bitcoin on the cheap though).
paulpauper 5y ago
this should be easy to hedge though
valuearb 5y ago
This makes no sense, his tweet alone has helped drive BTC down 10%. The amount of BTC Tesla could take in was likely only to be a small fraction of the amount they already hold. The terms were terrible for buyers, since TSLA forced them to take the downside risk on BTC movements.
redisman 5y ago
It’s still up 5x yoy
bourgwaletariat 5y ago
> Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. Except that's actually what he did, so if it was smart, then he didn't believe he was risking his business on it. Many, many retailers already stopped accepting bitcoin for this exact reason, so either he's not smart, according to your logic, or he had ulterior motives, which must somehow be smarter than the surface appearance of it. It can't be both. Here's what changed: Your perception of him. You think he has anyone's interest at stake but his own. He does not. He will throw anyone under the bus for his whims, even the entire planet. He disparages and slanders people rescuing kids from a cave. > covered up with false reasoning Um, do you mean a lie? This is all so juvenile. Are you afraid he's going to say, "What are you calling me a liar?" Yes. You're calling him a liar. He's a liar. That's what he is. What else is he lying about? He has proven, unequivocally, that he is willing to ruin people for profit. He's not doing well for human beings and he is actively betraying people who want to help humanity. When the truth can no longer be denied, all of those Tesla buyers are going to have some real egg on their faces. When Tesla goes under and they all stop working. It's just a matter of time. The amount of catastrophe that has already been created by this man is, as of yet, unimaginable. It is indefensible. > he should have never reached this stage We agree on that.
dawatchusay 5y ago
Could Tesla not have just decided that any new purchases would be converted to the dollar immediately? Accepting Bitcoin doesn’t necessarily mean holding Bitcoin and holding is where valuation matters. If I’m right about that it sounds like this could have a somewhat environmentally conscious motive.
throwkeep 5y ago
Volatility was well known and they could just convert to cash on receipt if that was the problem. More likely he was pressured to stop accepting it for payment. But by who?
rzz3 5y ago
Well, the other thing that changed is that the woke mob was throwing a lot of flack at Elon and TSLA about Bitcoin’s environmental impact. As an EV company, they likely want consumer sentiment to view them as having a positive environmental impact.
shoto_io 5y ago
Who cares if it goes up and down if you are convinced that BTC will be the currency of the future? From a BTC perspective USD is very volatile!
- Siira 5y ago
  One cannot eat delusion.
  - andyana 5y ago
    Should I tell that to a colleague who retired with millions in fiat made from the last BTC run?
    - warkdarrior 5y ago
      Why did he/she retire with millions in fiat if BTC is the future?
      - loa_in_ 5y ago
        Because we're not in the future yet.
raverbashing 5y ago
Nothing changed. As the men himself said, it's a hustle. The company probably made a lot of money with this maneuver.
NoPicklez 5y ago
Bitcoin fluctuations didn't become a problem when Musk purchased bitcoin, they have always been commonplace.
MichaelBurge 5y ago
Can't he short some Bitcoin futures when they make a sale, to eliminate volatility as a concern?
- ThJ 5y ago
  this.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

Or, did someone higher up leak information to Musk on upcoming regulation? I guess we might know if Musk sells his coins. (And no--I have no evidence. I just know wealthy boys get information. Even the people who didn't like Musk did 180's after his ingratiating performance Saturday Night Live. For the record, I have always liked Musk.)

rawtxapp 5y ago

That doesn't make sense, they are still holding a very large amount of it, why would they put this out and decrease the value of their own holdings?

throwaway6734 5y ago
Isn't it possible they're dumping the rest of their holdings?
- Applejinx 5y ago
  That or they are certain they will get burned sooner or later, and therefore even if they tank the value of their holdings it's at a time of their choosing and with an amount that's predictable. Contrast with the scenario where they keep doing it, steadily increasing their bitcoin holdings and even seeing the proportion of sales using bitcoin increase… and THEN hit a wall, not of their own choosing, and see the value collapse. Even if they are not dumping their holdings at all, there's still a case to be made for pulling a plug at a time they control, over an amount they control. If it collapses, they can put a hard limit on how much they lose: that being, the previous value of their entire bitcoin holdings.
- tracyhenry 5y ago
  The statement in the tweet said that they won't sell.
  - mannykannot 5y ago
    That is as amendable as the policy of accepting payment in bitcoin was - and right now, with Tesla having a nontrivial position in bitcoin and with Musk being an influencer of bitcoin price, it is in the company's interest for him to say that it is not going to sell, even if it reverses that policy tomorrow.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
sm4rk0 5y ago
To buy more at a lower price?

dalbasal 5y ago

All it means is that they're effectively "holding bitcoin," or otherwise exposed to its fluctuations. They're doing that anyway. It's not really different from holding forex, stocks or any other risky asset.

usaphp 5y ago

What percent of Tesla customers are buying their cars with bitcoins? I doubt it’s more than 1 out of 100, I think it was just a publicity stunt both times, media talked about Tesla when they started accepting them and will talk about them again when they decided to stop it.

qayxc 5y ago
It was a classic pump-and-dump if you ask me. Step 1: purchase $1.5Bn in Bitcoin Step 2: make an announcement that will likely result in a rising valuation (it briefly went up by ~20% just because Musk added #bitcoin to his bio on Twitter...) Step 3: sell 10% of your bitcoin at a profit of >$272M in Q1 Step 4: wait for the market to go up again, then proceed with Step 3 It's less risky to invest in a highly volatile, unregulated market if you have the means to somewhat steer the market just by making an announcement or have your company's figurehead add a hashtag on Twitter...
- lanstin 5y ago
  Like him or hate him, I don't think you can tar him with the "figurehead" brush.
  - qayxc 5y ago
    It's a figure of speech and meant to be completely neutral and independent of the actual person. Just like "the face of the company", e.g. Pat Gelsinger in the case of Intel or Tim Cook for Apple.
    - alisonkisk 5y ago
      "figurehead" is a word with a meaning. "Head" and "face" have different meanings.
    - CydeWeys 5y ago
      "Face of the company" and "figurehead" have different meanings. The latter is pejorative. From the dictionary: "a person who is head of a group, company, etc., in title but actually has no real authority or responsibility".

dmarcos 5y ago

This has changed: “Private-equity firm revives zombie fossil-fuel power plant to mine bitcoin” https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/05/private-equity-firm-revives-zombie-fossil-fuel-power-plant-to-mine-bitcoin/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/05/private-equity-f...

maxerickson 5y ago
That plant was restarted in 2017 and has had a mining data center at least since early 2020.
- dmarcos 5y ago
  Scale and expansion plans only became available on recent S4 filing. That’s new info. Tesla probably doesn’t want to contribute to the trend and hence the change of heart.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    A relatively small SPAC caused them to realize the obvious? If that is the case, what was going on before?
    - dmarcos 5y ago
      I think it's probably indicative of a trend that Tesla doesn't want to incentivize any further. Tesla's mission is all about moving away from fossil fuels. Prior, lean was towards renewable sources like hydro because of lower cost of surplus energy.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    Agreed. And for the cynics: Tesla is gonna lose goodwill and clean energy cred if their brand is tied to stuff like this. It became increasingly clear Bitcoin is overall not in Tesla’s interests.
    - asddubs 5y ago

myth_buster 5y ago

Now it seems to be going down. When bitcoin continues to steadily go down, it is a significant concern because Tesla will have to take losses on the cars it sells and will have reduced gross margins, which will result in their stock price tanking. Doesn't compute. If Euro/USD goes down by few basis points would one stop selling cars priced in euro? They can always price cars based on BTC's price and liquidate it to fiat or cryptocurrency of their choice.

andreilys 5y ago
If Euro/USD goes down by few basis points would one stop selling cars priced in euro? Btc swings can be +/-20% a day, so not exactly a great comparison. Also currency hedging is a thing that many companies employ to normalize profits. I’m sure there’s a BTC equivalent for this but the volatility would make it unreliable most likely
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Stable currencies may move a few basis points from day to day. BTC can move hundreds or thousands of basis points.
- myth_buster 5y ago
  What I'm saying is that they can sell cars in BTC without any volatility exposure. The price going down is not the reason for them deciding against selling cars in BTC but the energy subsidies.
brianwawok 5y ago
Except they also had 2? Billion in Bitcoin holdings. So the float up and down had an impact?
- myth_buster 5y ago
  They didn't sell their $1.5B BTC.
NicoJuicy 5y ago

tshaddox 5y ago

> Now it seems to be going down. You mean just over the last month?

banbanbang 5y ago

That’s cute. Tesla depends more on credits that they sell than money they “make” on cars. Economically speaking they are not an automaker. They’re reg credit seller and car is just the vehicle (pun intended) to capture rent. I don’t even blame Elon Muks. I blame the gov’t and economists for creating such a stupid ineffective system in the first place.

codeulike 5y ago

the biggest notable difference between then and now is then bitcoin seemed to be going only up. Now it seems to be going down Thats not a notable difference - it goes up and down all the time. Its renowned for its volatility. You can hardly say 'bitcoin seemed to be going only up' with a straight face - its been a rollercoaster since day 1.

B1FF_PSUVM 5y ago
> since day 1. I seem to remember that back then it was more "When you're down so low, the only way is up". I should have grabbed a few score of those BTC for pocket change, but did not bother. Yeah, I know.
- RangerScience 5y ago
  Someday, in the future: Child: Parent, parent, where does our generational wealth come from? Parent: Well you see my child, back in 2012, I didn't buy a pizza...
- edoceo 5y ago
  Yea, my hind-sight portfolio is really kicking ass.
- anthony_romeo 5y ago
  The advice I remember was: “If it’s low, buy. If it’s high, buy.”
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Since Day 1 - Bitcoin was worth 1000+ Bitcoins to 1 USD. Yesterday it took $59,000 USD to buy 1 Bitcoin. It's had a few sharp downs. It's had a few long plateaus of a year or so. But - from the perspective of yesterday going back a few months - it certainly seemed to only go up. If the S&P was up over 59,000,000x in 12 years, people would say the S&P only goes up... I mean, they already say "stonks only go up".
- corin_ 5y ago

t8e56vd4ih 5y ago

> Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. so musk realized finally that bitcoin is volatile. he's an idiot. his stupid appearance on snl confirms this perspective for me. why are so many people listening to this dimwit. he has nothing of value to offer or say. he should keep his stupid mouth shut. he's worse than trump in that regard.

adventured 5y ago

> Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. It's not going to matter. If Bitcoin is going down persistently it means we're on the back side of this global asset mania (which the commodity bubble may be signaling, that we're in or close to the 9th inning), and Tesla's stock is going with it under all scenarios. $900 to $589 is already telling an obvious story. Granted it's not just Tesla's bubble that is well over, the cloud bubble has ended as well (just wait until you see how low eg Snowflake goes, top to bottom). Amusingly, Bitcoin is likely to hold its value better than Tesla, in the case of the asset bubbles giving out. The market will look to value Tesla a bit closer to fundamentals (already happening), which is another 70-90% down for Tesla. At some point Tesla will be valued based on cashflow, profit production, and they'll never be able to support a $500b valuation; whereas Bitcoin can support something like a trillion dollar valuation globally (even if it takes more time to hold that ground persistently). I can't wait to go value hunting in the cloud again, as in March of 2020. Tesla won't be on that shopping list.

xwdv 5y ago
What is on your list? NET? DDOG? CRWD?
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
Why is the commodity market signaling we're close to the 9th inning?

lettergram 5y ago

I disagree... Pretty sure he saw this now deleted thread on Reddit /r/dogecoin https://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/nb1rki/cryptocurrency_energy_usage_per_transaction/ https://www.reddit.com/r/dogecoin/comments/nb1rki/cryptocurr... From ElegantPoop: > Well, it would appear by this image we have ourselves a sub 1% of bitcoin per transaction. Winning.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
munk-a 5y ago
I mean, if there's one thing we can all definitely agree on it's that dogecoin has no where to go but up at this point. Winning indeed. "Hey, poppa, why is our currency named doge coin?" 'Well son, a long time ago there was this really cute shiba inu that became a bit of a meme and then the internet happened.'
- broighbrobroigh 5y ago
  Dogecoin is neither deflationary, nor does it have a fixed supply. It's not going to be a thing beyond a lot of poor fools getting rekt when their techno king abandons it for his next meme fetish.

bedobi 5y ago

For that very reason, most businesses who accept bitcoin and other crypto (including Tesla, probably) don't actually keep the crypto, they immediately convert to traditional currency. On the other hand, Tesla is unique in that it literally went out and bought bitcoin to just sit on it, which is incredibly dumb.

actuator 5y ago
There is nothing dumb about what Musk and Tesla did, in fact it was for self gain. Look at the price when Tesla announced they bought bitcoin worth about a billion dollars. Even after the current fall, the price now is way higher than back then. Just the way Musk has been able to manipulate the whole market after investing his? and Tesla's money is just extraordinary. It was a strategic investment which has reaped money like anything in such a short span and they even used part of it to generate a positive component to their balance sheet in last quarter.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  And now that its down, they're probably buying more. They can get 5-10B in it, then Elon can pump it up more.
  - godelski 5y ago
    A month later I'm sure Elon will be talking about how he sold solar roofs and batteries to miners and is again accepting BTC and Doge.
    - AustinDev 5y ago
      Or maybe he just adds ASICS to the gigs factories to get a certain level of control over the mining economy.
- godelski 5y ago
  Honestly, when is the guy going to get charged by the SEC for market manipulation? It is fairly obvious he knows what he is doing with the crypto market and making a good chunk of change on it through his social media influence. But he also does it with Tesla (I know he got charged that one time but he's been a repeat offender).

nodesocket 5y ago

I am pro Tesla as a company and own a model Y, but this news was upsetting and frustrating to me. Exactly what changed from a few months ago when they announced their Bitcoin position and that they would accept payment? They knew damn well about mining in China being almost exclusively coal and that mining is extremely bad for the environment. On another note, I don't think anybody was able to buy a Tesla with Bitcoin. This was a false claim that never came to fruition. Some serious market manipulation here by Tesla and Elon.

yks 5y ago
The most reasonable explanation is that Tesla/Elon don't actually care about the environment and if it's going to suffer in their pursuit of whatever financial scheming and/or vanity, so be it.
- Qwertious 5y ago
  Or he thinks that the best thing to do for the environment is to pump up Tesla by any means necessary.
graphtrader 5y ago
I have really lost a ton of respect for Elon in the past few week. If we were talking penny stocks, this is classic pump and dump behavior that should result in jail time. I mean how much attention does one person need.

birdyrooster 5y ago

Pump and dump

mumblemumble 5y ago
It says right there that they are holding onto their bitcoin assets. Assuming that's true, there's no way this is a pump and dump, because there was no dump.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  Okay well then maybe not. I don’t imagine Elon would hurt TSLA to get a discount on BTC
- cko 5y ago
  You can borrow against it, and that wouldn't be a taxable event. Not sure what % of your portfolio lenders allow though.
  - mumblemumble 5y ago
    It's not really about taxable events so much as possessing a financial interest. Using it as collateral doesn't get it off your balance sheet, nor does it negate the influence of any price swings. If anything, it intensifies them, since a downward swing (say, in response to a tweet saying you're no longer three rocket emoji Bitcoin, only two rocket emoji Bitcoin) might trigger a margin call.

rasputnik6502 5y ago

Decision to go into bitcoin was smart and also decision to back off was smart. Musk is the only person who can do or say two contradictory things and both are smart. He really is a genius

cinntaile 5y ago
You're giving him a bit too much credit. He should have never made Tesla invest money in BTC, that's just a bad PR move. Now they have to do damage control.
- PleaseIgnacio 5y ago
  I think they’re being sarcastic.

Black101 5y ago

> So what changed? Well I think the biggest notable difference between then and now is then bitcoin seemed to be going only up. Now it seems to be going down. TSLA appears to follow the same curve as BTC ... but either way it doesn't make sense, because if you accept BTC payments, you can instantly transfer them to cash if you don't trust BTC.

cableshaft 5y ago
Well, guarantee after today, pretty much whoever held both bitcoin (and/or possibly other crypto) and Tesla stock, will be selling all of the Tesla stock, at minimum. He made a bunch of enemies today, intentional or not.
- Black101 5y ago
  I've sold my TSLA weeks ago but I am keeping my crypto ;)
  - cableshaft 5y ago
    I never had TSLA because it never made sense to me why it was so high, but if I did I would definitely have sold it today. Was actually somewhat considering the new Model 3 for my next car, but now I'll look into other EVs instead. Still buying crypto.
- belltaco 5y ago
  This seems so petty, he caused bitcoin and other crypto to go 5x. Maybe some very recent buyers are affected but the vast majority made out like bandits, and can lock in their profits by selling btc off now.
  - cableshaft 5y ago
    Bitcoin didn't go 5x just because of him. It was already on an upward trajectory, breaking new all-time-highs, and around 30k, if I remember correctly, when he made the announcement that Tesla bought bitcoin and is accepting it. It did jump up 6% the day he announced Tesla was accepting bitcoin, but he effectively undid all of that (and more, it went down around 12%) yesterday, as well as add more seeming legitimacy to the 'bitcoin is bad for the environment' line that the media has been pushing hard since it started shooting up again (they didn't give a shit when its price was low, even though not much has changed for energy use between then and now). Some people aren't just looking to make a quick buck, they want to see crypto become a more stable asset class, not just another pump and dump scheme (plenty of shitty alt-coins for pump and dump schemes). This one tweet put a lot more uncertainty into that (it shouldn't have, but it did), especially if it triggers a wave of 'well bitcoin is bad for the environment, so we better get out' from other entities. Also how would he not know bitcoin's energy usage before the first announcement? If he had done any due diligence at all he would have known this, so either they didn't do any research or it's a bullshit scapegoat to cover up the real reason they're backing out. In the long run I think Bitcoin will survive this, but in the short term it could prematurely kill (or at least significantly stunt) this current bull run and we could already be back on track for the next multi-year bear market, which I've been through twice now with bitcoin, and it sucks (good for accumulating bitcoin on the cheap though).

paulpauper 5y ago

this should be easy to hedge though

valuearb 5y ago

This makes no sense, his tweet alone has helped drive BTC down 10%. The amount of BTC Tesla could take in was likely only to be a small fraction of the amount they already hold. The terms were terrible for buyers, since TSLA forced them to take the downside risk on BTC movements.

redisman 5y ago

It’s still up 5x yoy

bourgwaletariat 5y ago

> Musk smartly decided he did not want to risk his half a trillion dollar company on random bitcoin fluctuations. Except that's actually what he did, so if it was smart, then he didn't believe he was risking his business on it. Many, many retailers already stopped accepting bitcoin for this exact reason, so either he's not smart, according to your logic, or he had ulterior motives, which must somehow be smarter than the surface appearance of it. It can't be both. Here's what changed: Your perception of him. You think he has anyone's interest at stake but his own. He does not. He will throw anyone under the bus for his whims, even the entire planet. He disparages and slanders people rescuing kids from a cave. > covered up with false reasoning Um, do you mean a lie? This is all so juvenile. Are you afraid he's going to say, "What are you calling me a liar?" Yes. You're calling him a liar. He's a liar. That's what he is. What else is he lying about? He has proven, unequivocally, that he is willing to ruin people for profit. He's not doing well for human beings and he is actively betraying people who want to help humanity. When the truth can no longer be denied, all of those Tesla buyers are going to have some real egg on their faces. When Tesla goes under and they all stop working. It's just a matter of time. The amount of catastrophe that has already been created by this man is, as of yet, unimaginable. It is indefensible. > he should have never reached this stage We agree on that.

dawatchusay 5y ago

Could Tesla not have just decided that any new purchases would be converted to the dollar immediately? Accepting Bitcoin doesn’t necessarily mean holding Bitcoin and holding is where valuation matters. If I’m right about that it sounds like this could have a somewhat environmentally conscious motive.

throwkeep 5y ago

Volatility was well known and they could just convert to cash on receipt if that was the problem. More likely he was pressured to stop accepting it for payment. But by who?

rzz3 5y ago

Well, the other thing that changed is that the woke mob was throwing a lot of flack at Elon and TSLA about Bitcoin’s environmental impact. As an EV company, they likely want consumer sentiment to view them as having a positive environmental impact.

shoto_io 5y ago

Who cares if it goes up and down if you are convinced that BTC will be the currency of the future? From a BTC perspective USD is very volatile!

Siira 5y ago
One cannot eat delusion.
- andyana 5y ago
  Should I tell that to a colleague who retired with millions in fiat made from the last BTC run?
  - warkdarrior 5y ago
    Why did he/she retire with millions in fiat if BTC is the future?
    - loa_in_ 5y ago
      Because we're not in the future yet.

raverbashing 5y ago

Nothing changed. As the men himself said, it's a hustle. The company probably made a lot of money with this maneuver.

NoPicklez 5y ago

Bitcoin fluctuations didn't become a problem when Musk purchased bitcoin, they have always been commonplace.

MichaelBurge 5y ago

Can't he short some Bitcoin futures when they make a sale, to eliminate volatility as a concern?

ThJ 5y ago
this.