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Thank you for articulating this. For the last decade we have had frontend developers trying to force the web to be an app delivery platform. We have bent over b

by ctoth 5y ago

Thank you for articulating this. For the last decade we have had frontend developers trying to force the web to be an app delivery platform. We have bent over backwards to accommodate this. We have turned browsers into a giant pile of hacks essentially emulating their own operating systems. And for what? As soon as they're able, they say oh, the browser is a giant bundle of hacks now, let's implement our own app delivery system on top of it. Next time we get a document delivery format and people start trying to make it something it's not, because oh gosh it's easier to install the app, we need to push back and say hey, maybe clicking a few buttons in an installer isn't the worst thing in the world.

vkou 5y ago
So, because you don't want binary blobs to be deployed over the web, you would like users to download and install binary blob native applications... And that makes things better in what way, for whom, exactly?
- ctoth 5y ago
  Let's start with accessibility, because this is a field I am forced to be an expert in. Native "binary blobs" have access to the operating system accessibility APIs, and consequently any native app is a lot more likely to be accessible out of the box than something rendered to a canvas. People have spent literally decades building out APIs for the native platforms [0] [1] [2]. To think that a native app is equivalent to a canvas-rendered app is to not understand either. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Active_Accessibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Active_Accessibility [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAccessible2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAccessible2 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_Provider_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_P...
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    it's viable to make accessible apps in DOM though - it's just canvas apps that can't be made accessible, and I agree with the GP that Google should not be trying to circumvent the DOM for the Docs interface.
    - lhnz 5y ago
      Canvas apps can be made accessible. The example that Google shows in their post has accessibility features [0], although currently these need to be switched on with a keyboard shortcut (⌘+Option+Z). Pay attention to `document.getElementById('docs-aria-speakable')`. [0] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N1XaAI4ZlCUHNWJBXJUBFjxSTlsD5XctCz6LB3Calcg/preview https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N1XaAI4ZlCUHNWJBXJUBFjxS...
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  I'll bite. For starters, a binary blob on your computer can be prevented from "phoning home" to collect personal data much more effectively than a web app can. Additionally, the vendor is often forced to compete with their own old software because they can't always force you to run the newest binary blob. This prevents the wholesale loss of features from products you rely on at the whim of the vendor.
  - vkou 5y ago
    > For starters, a binary blob on your computer can be prevented from "phoning home" to collect personal data much more effectively than a web app can. In theory, it can be. In practice, the average user doesn't do a damn thing to do so, and installing a random native blob from the internet is far more dangerous than a webapp running in a browser sandbox. > Additionally, the vendor is often forced to compete with their own old software because they can't always force you to run the newest binary blob. This is also how we get people running years-old software instead of deploying security patches. I understand that a power user may prefer these trade-offs. Most users are not power users.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      Security patches aren't important for most software, when it's not connecting out to any servers.
      - vkou 5y ago
        Surely, you realize that docs needs to be connected to a server in order to perform it's basic use case of collaborative editing... Right? You must also realize that an arbitrary native blob can and will happily connect out to whatever server it's authors want it to. I can't say that 'there are a few techies who aren't happy that Google doesn't ship docs as a native application' is a very compelling reason for Google to try to change core web standards.
        Dylan16807 5y ago

by ctoth 5y ago

vkou 5y ago

So, because you don't want binary blobs to be deployed over the web, you would like users to download and install binary blob native applications... And that makes things better in what way, for whom, exactly?

ctoth 5y ago
Let's start with accessibility, because this is a field I am forced to be an expert in. Native "binary blobs" have access to the operating system accessibility APIs, and consequently any native app is a lot more likely to be accessible out of the box than something rendered to a canvas. People have spent literally decades building out APIs for the native platforms [0] [1] [2]. To think that a native app is equivalent to a canvas-rendered app is to not understand either. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Active_Accessibility https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Active_Accessibility [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAccessible2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAccessible2 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_Provider_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistive_Technology_Service_P...
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  it's viable to make accessible apps in DOM though - it's just canvas apps that can't be made accessible, and I agree with the GP that Google should not be trying to circumvent the DOM for the Docs interface.
  - lhnz 5y ago
    Canvas apps can be made accessible. The example that Google shows in their post has accessibility features [0], although currently these need to be switched on with a keyboard shortcut (⌘+Option+Z). Pay attention to `document.getElementById('docs-aria-speakable')`. [0] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N1XaAI4ZlCUHNWJBXJUBFjxSTlsD5XctCz6LB3Calcg/preview https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N1XaAI4ZlCUHNWJBXJUBFjxS...
AlexandrB 5y ago
I'll bite. For starters, a binary blob on your computer can be prevented from "phoning home" to collect personal data much more effectively than a web app can. Additionally, the vendor is often forced to compete with their own old software because they can't always force you to run the newest binary blob. This prevents the wholesale loss of features from products you rely on at the whim of the vendor.
- vkou 5y ago
  > For starters, a binary blob on your computer can be prevented from "phoning home" to collect personal data much more effectively than a web app can. In theory, it can be. In practice, the average user doesn't do a damn thing to do so, and installing a random native blob from the internet is far more dangerous than a webapp running in a browser sandbox. > Additionally, the vendor is often forced to compete with their own old software because they can't always force you to run the newest binary blob. This is also how we get people running years-old software instead of deploying security patches. I understand that a power user may prefer these trade-offs. Most users are not power users.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    Security patches aren't important for most software, when it's not connecting out to any servers.
    - vkou 5y ago
      Surely, you realize that docs needs to be connected to a server in order to perform it's basic use case of collaborative editing... Right? You must also realize that an arbitrary native blob can and will happily connect out to whatever server it's authors want it to. I can't say that 'there are a few techies who aren't happy that Google doesn't ship docs as a native application' is a very compelling reason for Google to try to change core web standards.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago