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I know this is a tech site, and I am a tech guy. It seems the simple solution that would have avoided this entire story and situation: why didn't this guy just

I know this is a tech site, and I am a tech guy. It seems the simple solution that would have avoided this entire story and situation: why didn't this guy just move elsewhere instead of trying to convince/force an entire town in which he never meaningfully contributed anything to pay money for something that most of them didn't really care for or want to begin with? I think the general attitude in the article is sickening.

gpm 5y ago
> for something that most of them didn't really care for or want to begin with The evidence in the article seems to support the opposite. The only actual vote (that was discussed in the article) showed that the majority did want it. Moreover your role as an honest politician, is to figure out how to improve the average persons life and advocate for that position. That position is not always (and is in fact frequently not) a position of inaction. I highly doubt that the author (or anyone else, except perhaps someone running a municipal broadband contractor) has gone into municipal politics advocating for municipal broadband with the idea that it's going to be a direct net gain for them. As you suggest, the amount of time you have to put into it far exceeds your personal benefit. People like this almost always do it because they believe that this is the best course of action for the public good, not their own.
- orzig 5y ago
  Agreed - the real mark of leadership (whether heroic or mundane) is when you're pushing to the next cliff's next handhold, not coddling the lowest common denominator. There exist disasters caused by self-dealing dressed up in aspirational language. But too often ignored is the silent, massive, and insidious weight of missed opportunity cause by cowardice dressed up in bureaucratic language.
bigbillheck 5y ago
He'd lived there for 20 years, that should count for something.
triceratops 5y ago
> an entire town in which he never meaningfully contributed FTA: "I had lived in this town for twenty years". That means 20 years' worth property taxes and sales taxes, at the very least. > I think the general attitude in the article is sickening. Of trying to improve the town in which you've lived for 20 years?
Ciantic 5y ago
I didn't see it sickening. It seemed like a story from small town politics. What is neat that in the end they did get upgraded poles which lead to companies bidding for a service, and 90% of the city supposedly subscribed to Spectrum. Did they end up paying more than funding it with the taxes? Maybe.
yowlingcat 5y ago
Well first, "sickening" is a fighting, somewhat hyperbolic word. Second, I wouldn't call your attitude sickening, but I would call it unfortunately fatalistic. First off, politics happens one step at a time. Second off, if you read to the very end of the article, his efforts weren't completely in vain. At the end, the big providers came through and delivered some form of fiber, which let him sit with a very comfortable and serviceable 85 mb/s. Not a complete victory, but certainly a minor one.
burlesona 5y ago
The guy lived in a small town for 20 years, and it’s clear that he was a relatively private person. There’s nothing wrong with being introverted / private / withdrawn etc. More to the point, when something came up that was meaningful to him, he stepped up and did a lot of work to try and make it happen, and in the end things did get meaningfully better even if not in the exact way the author had hoped. I think you severely misinterpreted this story.
w4 5y ago
The town government exists for the benefit and service of its residents. It is not a take it or leave it proposition. The author is a resident, and it is therefore entirely reasonable for them to petition the town government for some service, and ask that it be put to a vote. If the other residents in the town vote it down, no harm no foul, no one is forced to do anything. But if the residents vote in favor (and they did in this article, by an overwhelming 90% majority) then no one is “forcing” anyone to do anything. Everyone agreed to do it in a vote. It’s how Democracy works. The majority of people won’t bother with all of this, though, because it’s hard. They will instead do what you suggest: pack up and move to somewhere that has the services they desire. That can kill a community over time. Indeed, people moving like you suggest has caused rural communities to whither and decay over the past decade, as people leave them for cities with more services and greater opportunities. It’s not a desirable outcome, and the accessibility of town government to petitions like these doesn’t hurt the community, it helps to protect it by keeping it responsive to its residents’ needs.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  I don't see why people should have to get involved in any way. They already pay their taxes. They shouldn't have to pay with their time and work as well. It's the government's job to figure out what people need and how to implement it.
  - EricE 5y ago
    lol - have fun waiting for the roast duck to fly into your mouth! BTW - this is why I hope to hell we never get the government involved in healthcare in this country (US). If you think screw ups around cable internet are fun, have fun trying to get decent health care in a timely manner. I have too many close friends who are vets and watching how the VA jerks them around is disheartening. If you think average citizens are going to rate any better - ha!
    - matheusmoreira 5y ago
      > lol - have fun waiting for the roast duck to fly into your mouth! At this point I don't really expect much from the government. Honestly I wish they'd stop trying so hard to do everything. When company services suck at least I'm not forced to pay them every year. > this is why I hope to hell we never get the government involved in healthcare in this country (US). I have government health care in my country. Forced town meetings and everything. It's a huge mess. Poorly managed and lacking in resources. In some places you can't even wash your hands because there's no water. Politicians are so corrupt they steal money meant for COVID-19 vaccines and masks. Health insurance is still necessary for high quality care.
mad_ned 5y ago
just for the record, yep I did think about moving, on more than one occasion. (I mentioned it in part 1, a little.) As for whether we were trying to force the town to do something only we wanted - it seemed like that to us at times for sure. But our belief was that having high speed internet service in town was something most people did want, not just us. and although we never built the system we thought we would, a very large majority did vote to create that muni system...
- akulbe 5y ago
  I'm ready for the rest of the story, OP! :)
  - mad_ned 5y ago
    If you mean "Thin Pipe, part II" - its there. hackernews moderators did something weird - this original post and early comments were just part 2 of the story, since i had posted part 1 separately last week. they relinked this part 2 post back to part 1, which was the earlier stuff leading up to the municipal broadband part. but the comments for part 2 remain. anyway sorry for any confusion - direct link for part 2 is here: https://madned.substack.com/p/thin-pipe-part-ii https://madned.substack.com/p/thin-pipe-part-ii
    - dredmorbius 5y ago
      FYI, mods do get actively involved in adjusting titles and links. I don't know what happened here specifically, but it may have been that they thought that 1) this submission was getting traction and 2) part 1 would be a better introduction to the story than part 2. Interventions are made with the quality of the site in mind. (I'm just another reader, but have had many interactions with mods as well as watching what they do and why.) Submitting Part 2 in a few days would probably be a good idea.
kingsuper20 5y ago
>I think the general attitude in the article is sickening. Huh? Did you read both parts? (or the first part even?). I thought it worked out remarkably well. Our local small town has cohesive activist mafias, with a lot of overlap in membership, who are happy to make the city council's life hellish and have outsized power. I could write a much more crazy-making substack article. OTOH, the inevitable individual cranks that go to all public meetings in order to be heard don't seem to have much in the way of persuasive abilities. Remember that the next time you are trying to sell something in a company at a meeting. Go into the thing with a nailed-down ally or two who share talking points with you.

gpm 5y ago

> for something that most of them didn't really care for or want to begin with The evidence in the article seems to support the opposite. The only actual vote (that was discussed in the article) showed that the majority did want it. Moreover your role as an honest politician, is to figure out how to improve the average persons life and advocate for that position. That position is not always (and is in fact frequently not) a position of inaction. I highly doubt that the author (or anyone else, except perhaps someone running a municipal broadband contractor) has gone into municipal politics advocating for municipal broadband with the idea that it's going to be a direct net gain for them. As you suggest, the amount of time you have to put into it far exceeds your personal benefit. People like this almost always do it because they believe that this is the best course of action for the public good, not their own.

orzig 5y ago
Agreed - the real mark of leadership (whether heroic or mundane) is when you're pushing to the next cliff's next handhold, not coddling the lowest common denominator. There exist disasters caused by self-dealing dressed up in aspirational language. But too often ignored is the silent, massive, and insidious weight of missed opportunity cause by cowardice dressed up in bureaucratic language.

bigbillheck 5y ago

He'd lived there for 20 years, that should count for something.

triceratops 5y ago

> an entire town in which he never meaningfully contributed FTA: "I had lived in this town for twenty years". That means 20 years' worth property taxes and sales taxes, at the very least. > I think the general attitude in the article is sickening. Of trying to improve the town in which you've lived for 20 years?

Ciantic 5y ago

I didn't see it sickening. It seemed like a story from small town politics. What is neat that in the end they did get upgraded poles which lead to companies bidding for a service, and 90% of the city supposedly subscribed to Spectrum. Did they end up paying more than funding it with the taxes? Maybe.

yowlingcat 5y ago

Well first, "sickening" is a fighting, somewhat hyperbolic word. Second, I wouldn't call your attitude sickening, but I would call it unfortunately fatalistic. First off, politics happens one step at a time. Second off, if you read to the very end of the article, his efforts weren't completely in vain. At the end, the big providers came through and delivered some form of fiber, which let him sit with a very comfortable and serviceable 85 mb/s. Not a complete victory, but certainly a minor one.

burlesona 5y ago

The guy lived in a small town for 20 years, and it’s clear that he was a relatively private person. There’s nothing wrong with being introverted / private / withdrawn etc. More to the point, when something came up that was meaningful to him, he stepped up and did a lot of work to try and make it happen, and in the end things did get meaningfully better even if not in the exact way the author had hoped. I think you severely misinterpreted this story.

w4 5y ago

The town government exists for the benefit and service of its residents. It is not a take it or leave it proposition. The author is a resident, and it is therefore entirely reasonable for them to petition the town government for some service, and ask that it be put to a vote. If the other residents in the town vote it down, no harm no foul, no one is forced to do anything. But if the residents vote in favor (and they did in this article, by an overwhelming 90% majority) then no one is “forcing” anyone to do anything. Everyone agreed to do it in a vote. It’s how Democracy works. The majority of people won’t bother with all of this, though, because it’s hard. They will instead do what you suggest: pack up and move to somewhere that has the services they desire. That can kill a community over time. Indeed, people moving like you suggest has caused rural communities to whither and decay over the past decade, as people leave them for cities with more services and greater opportunities. It’s not a desirable outcome, and the accessibility of town government to petitions like these doesn’t hurt the community, it helps to protect it by keeping it responsive to its residents’ needs.

matheusmoreira 5y ago
I don't see why people should have to get involved in any way. They already pay their taxes. They shouldn't have to pay with their time and work as well. It's the government's job to figure out what people need and how to implement it.
- EricE 5y ago
  lol - have fun waiting for the roast duck to fly into your mouth! BTW - this is why I hope to hell we never get the government involved in healthcare in this country (US). If you think screw ups around cable internet are fun, have fun trying to get decent health care in a timely manner. I have too many close friends who are vets and watching how the VA jerks them around is disheartening. If you think average citizens are going to rate any better - ha!
  - matheusmoreira 5y ago
    > lol - have fun waiting for the roast duck to fly into your mouth! At this point I don't really expect much from the government. Honestly I wish they'd stop trying so hard to do everything. When company services suck at least I'm not forced to pay them every year. > this is why I hope to hell we never get the government involved in healthcare in this country (US). I have government health care in my country. Forced town meetings and everything. It's a huge mess. Poorly managed and lacking in resources. In some places you can't even wash your hands because there's no water. Politicians are so corrupt they steal money meant for COVID-19 vaccines and masks. Health insurance is still necessary for high quality care.

mad_ned 5y ago

just for the record, yep I did think about moving, on more than one occasion. (I mentioned it in part 1, a little.) As for whether we were trying to force the town to do something only we wanted - it seemed like that to us at times for sure. But our belief was that having high speed internet service in town was something most people did want, not just us. and although we never built the system we thought we would, a very large majority did vote to create that muni system...

akulbe 5y ago
I'm ready for the rest of the story, OP! :)
- mad_ned 5y ago
  If you mean "Thin Pipe, part II" - its there. hackernews moderators did something weird - this original post and early comments were just part 2 of the story, since i had posted part 1 separately last week. they relinked this part 2 post back to part 1, which was the earlier stuff leading up to the municipal broadband part. but the comments for part 2 remain. anyway sorry for any confusion - direct link for part 2 is here: https://madned.substack.com/p/thin-pipe-part-ii https://madned.substack.com/p/thin-pipe-part-ii
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    FYI, mods do get actively involved in adjusting titles and links. I don't know what happened here specifically, but it may have been that they thought that 1) this submission was getting traction and 2) part 1 would be a better introduction to the story than part 2. Interventions are made with the quality of the site in mind. (I'm just another reader, but have had many interactions with mods as well as watching what they do and why.) Submitting Part 2 in a few days would probably be a good idea.

kingsuper20 5y ago

>I think the general attitude in the article is sickening. Huh? Did you read both parts? (or the first part even?). I thought it worked out remarkably well. Our local small town has cohesive activist mafias, with a lot of overlap in membership, who are happy to make the city council's life hellish and have outsized power. I could write a much more crazy-making substack article. OTOH, the inevitable individual cranks that go to all public meetings in order to be heard don't seem to have much in the way of persuasive abilities. Remember that the next time you are trying to sell something in a company at a meeting. Go into the thing with a nailed-down ally or two who share talking points with you.