4 ms·

The content of the post is highly speculative. I don't have a problem with companies sending out emails tailored to customers' demographic profiles. The issue

by stewx 5y ago

The content of the post is highly speculative. I don't have a problem with companies sending out emails tailored to customers' demographic profiles. The issue is really the wording, which in this case assumes the customer has children. It could easily be remedied by changing it to "Do you have kids? Make sure they know this."

watwut 5y ago
I am women and often check "male" in combos to avoid weird assumptions about me.
tjpnz 5y ago
Or even "Make sure you know this for the child in your life" so you can cover nieces and nephews.
Dobbs 5y ago
Is playing devil's advocate really necessary here? How many times do women have to complain about these assumptions being constantly made will it take before people believe them that there is a systemic problem of these types of assumptions?
II2II 5y ago
The issue with targeting advertising is its ability to create problems. I was going to say: cases like this illustrate how insensitive such advertising can be. While it sounds like she underwent sterilization since she didn't want children, there is also a possibility that the choice was forced upon her for medical reasons or that she didn't undergo a procedure but was sterile. Of course, that would have happened even if the email was sent to everyone rather than targeted. More realistic issues pop up when the criteria are prejudiced (age, gender, race, etc.) or criteria that may have an implicit prejudice. Using income is more likely to bias towards a particular gender due to well known income disparities. Using postal/zip code is more likely to bias towards a particular race simply because of the amount of segregation we see in housing. While those biases don't guarantee an outcome, historical and contemporary ills in society means they are a problem.
- bluetomcat 5y ago
  I have a similar anecdotal case of mistargeted marketing, but I wouldn't write a furious blog post about it. Being a bit of a petrolhead and having done regular searches for pictures and information on Aston Martin cars, I see ads from dealerships offering me particular cars with price tags well above what's in my savings account. Shall I complain that the algorithm is not aware of the number in my savings account, and is also not aware of the fact that I have a 3-year old child which cannot possibly be put in a 2-seat Vantage?
  - tobr 5y ago
    Do you see the irony of complaining loudly about a complaint? Do you really think it’s worse to “write a furious blog post” than the insults you hurled at the OP in your other comment in this thread?
  - II2II 5y ago
    In the case of the article, it sounds like the author is opposed to profiling and targeting. There are many reasons for that. Personally, I find it exploitative. In the case of the article, it was pointing out prejudiced assumptions. Reading the article, I could infer cases where that prejudice could have a very negative impact. I'm going to be blunt here: there are circumstances under which women desire yet cannot bear their own children. It is a heavy burden that they may carry through much of their adult life. It can have a much deeper impact than being unable to afford some creature comfort or being unable to seat a child in a luxury car. Perhaps it can be argued that the number in a savings account can have an equally heavy burden, say for someone who has had everything taken away from them. I'm not the one to make that argument since I place the value of the person above that of dollar. That being said, I am not particularly fond of direct advertising. Not only is it intrusive, but most forms of direct advertising involve making some sort of decision regarding who to advertise to. Even choosing people within a particular postal/zip code is going to result in bias, even if it is an unintentional consequence of structural problems within our society. Couple that with the intent of direct advertising having a larger impact, you end up with the negative consequences having a larger impact.

by stewx 5y ago

watwut 5y ago

I am women and often check "male" in combos to avoid weird assumptions about me.

tjpnz 5y ago

Or even "Make sure you know this for the child in your life" so you can cover nieces and nephews.

Dobbs 5y ago

Is playing devil's advocate really necessary here? How many times do women have to complain about these assumptions being constantly made will it take before people believe them that there is a systemic problem of these types of assumptions?

II2II 5y ago

The issue with targeting advertising is its ability to create problems. I was going to say: cases like this illustrate how insensitive such advertising can be. While it sounds like she underwent sterilization since she didn't want children, there is also a possibility that the choice was forced upon her for medical reasons or that she didn't undergo a procedure but was sterile. Of course, that would have happened even if the email was sent to everyone rather than targeted. More realistic issues pop up when the criteria are prejudiced (age, gender, race, etc.) or criteria that may have an implicit prejudice. Using income is more likely to bias towards a particular gender due to well known income disparities. Using postal/zip code is more likely to bias towards a particular race simply because of the amount of segregation we see in housing. While those biases don't guarantee an outcome, historical and contemporary ills in society means they are a problem.

bluetomcat 5y ago
I have a similar anecdotal case of mistargeted marketing, but I wouldn't write a furious blog post about it. Being a bit of a petrolhead and having done regular searches for pictures and information on Aston Martin cars, I see ads from dealerships offering me particular cars with price tags well above what's in my savings account. Shall I complain that the algorithm is not aware of the number in my savings account, and is also not aware of the fact that I have a 3-year old child which cannot possibly be put in a 2-seat Vantage?
- tobr 5y ago
  Do you see the irony of complaining loudly about a complaint? Do you really think it’s worse to “write a furious blog post” than the insults you hurled at the OP in your other comment in this thread?
- II2II 5y ago
  In the case of the article, it sounds like the author is opposed to profiling and targeting. There are many reasons for that. Personally, I find it exploitative. In the case of the article, it was pointing out prejudiced assumptions. Reading the article, I could infer cases where that prejudice could have a very negative impact. I'm going to be blunt here: there are circumstances under which women desire yet cannot bear their own children. It is a heavy burden that they may carry through much of their adult life. It can have a much deeper impact than being unable to afford some creature comfort or being unable to seat a child in a luxury car. Perhaps it can be argued that the number in a savings account can have an equally heavy burden, say for someone who has had everything taken away from them. I'm not the one to make that argument since I place the value of the person above that of dollar. That being said, I am not particularly fond of direct advertising. Not only is it intrusive, but most forms of direct advertising involve making some sort of decision regarding who to advertise to. Even choosing people within a particular postal/zip code is going to result in bias, even if it is an unintentional consequence of structural problems within our society. Couple that with the intent of direct advertising having a larger impact, you end up with the negative consequences having a larger impact.