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>>> How many people have committed crimes that could have been prevented with a mental hospital stay? <<< Isn't this essentially equivalent to pre-emptive puni

>>> How many people have committed crimes that could have been prevented with a mental hospital stay? <<< Isn't this essentially equivalent to pre-emptive punishment? If you abstract it you could say, how many murders will stop if we lock up anyone who has ever been in a violent altercation? It is compelling in some ways, but this list also includes anyone in a very stupid bar fight. The real problem isn't even the haziness of the line, it's where do you draw the line. Is being gay evil? Not too long ago it was viewed as that, and feminine boys were quite often put through hell. I really don't want to live in a world like that. This led to atrocities like these; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversion_therapy#In_homosexuality http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aversion_therapy#In_homosexuali... The problem with a lot of psychiatry is the game of vested interests. For example, people making the DSM have a vested interest to categorise deviations from the social norm into disorders which require their own unique brand of "therapy". If you add in the fact that most of psychology research lacks proper scientific methodology, and its often used as a platform to prove a point, which somehow always agrees with the researchers prejudices, you get people juggling grenades on a glass slop, while balancing on a wet soap bar.

joe_the_user 15y ago
Also, it is far from a given that a mentally ill person is especially inclined towards crime. My mother worked as a psychiatric social worker for an extended period and her opinion was that schizophrenics were less dangerous than just average people. Certainly, many mentally ill people could use some help and will engage in behaviors "disturbing to the public" (talking loudly to themselves etc). But it seems to me that serious criminality requires a certain confidence and competence maybe not a lot but more than, say
- cosgroveb 15y ago
  Actually, it has been shown that in the absence of substance abuse, schizophrenics are no more violent than the general population. I have a family member with mental health problems. It annoys me to know end when I see yet another episode of Criminal Minds where the killer has paranoid schizophrenia. People with mental health issues need support not alienation from society.
eftpotrm 15y ago
How is it in the interest of the person concerned to be in prison rather than undergoing psychiatric care though? We can take an extreme view of personal liberty, but in the UK at least a significantly higher percentage of those entering prison are suffering from mental health problems than in the rest of society. Prison is a suboptimal way of treating them; the level of disconnect with the normal world that it forces is unhelpful enough to healthy inmates, let alone those already in a fragile state of mind. My understanding is that the bulk of individuals with severe mental health problems are more likely to be a danger to themselves than others in any case. Your argument seems to presuppose that authorities are inherently evil and trying to inflict harm on the individual. One could certainly make the case for that in some totalitarian regimes, but in a healthy democracy I don't believe that's a sustainable view. If you genuinely believe that, make your case and run for office. Yes, it has to be carefully used and overseen and yes, there have to be limits on its use (UK law explicitly requires that treatment to the individual's benefit must be undertaken during their time in hospital) but in balance and in a carefully controlled and properly publicly accountable system, I'm comfortable with the detention of individuals with mental health problems for treatment.
- todayiamme 15y ago
  I think that you're confusing 2 issues; Issue 1 : A large amount of criminals have mental health issues. Issue 2 : We don't like people with mental health issues and we tend to characterise them as "dangerous". The people in Issue 1 are a small subset of people in Issue 2. How you treat people in Issue 1 is a completely different matter than locking up people in Issue 2. It's like saying since 80-90% of rapists are males, we should pre-emptively employ measures such as imprisonment, tracking, banishment and castration for all males (these are measures currently undertaken for certain classes of sex criminals) Clearly a subset is not representative of the entire set. >>> Your argument seems to presuppose that authorities are inherently evil and trying to inflict harm on the individual. One could certainly make the case for that in some totalitarian regimes, but in a healthy democracy I don't believe that's a sustainable view. If you genuinely believe that, make your case and run for office. <<< Alan Turing.
  - 15y ago
corin_ 15y ago
Anyone interested in that topic (Aversion therapy for homosexuals) should read http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/what-are-little-boys-made-of-main http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/what-are-little-boys-made-o... It's a very well researched piece on the impact it had on one boy's life - very moving, very well written, very fascinating.

joe_the_user 15y ago

Also, it is far from a given that a mentally ill person is especially inclined towards crime. My mother worked as a psychiatric social worker for an extended period and her opinion was that schizophrenics were less dangerous than just average people. Certainly, many mentally ill people could use some help and will engage in behaviors "disturbing to the public" (talking loudly to themselves etc). But it seems to me that serious criminality requires a certain confidence and competence maybe not a lot but more than, say

cosgroveb 15y ago
Actually, it has been shown that in the absence of substance abuse, schizophrenics are no more violent than the general population. I have a family member with mental health problems. It annoys me to know end when I see yet another episode of Criminal Minds where the killer has paranoid schizophrenia. People with mental health issues need support not alienation from society.

eftpotrm 15y ago

How is it in the interest of the person concerned to be in prison rather than undergoing psychiatric care though? We can take an extreme view of personal liberty, but in the UK at least a significantly higher percentage of those entering prison are suffering from mental health problems than in the rest of society. Prison is a suboptimal way of treating them; the level of disconnect with the normal world that it forces is unhelpful enough to healthy inmates, let alone those already in a fragile state of mind. My understanding is that the bulk of individuals with severe mental health problems are more likely to be a danger to themselves than others in any case. Your argument seems to presuppose that authorities are inherently evil and trying to inflict harm on the individual. One could certainly make the case for that in some totalitarian regimes, but in a healthy democracy I don't believe that's a sustainable view. If you genuinely believe that, make your case and run for office. Yes, it has to be carefully used and overseen and yes, there have to be limits on its use (UK law explicitly requires that treatment to the individual's benefit must be undertaken during their time in hospital) but in balance and in a carefully controlled and properly publicly accountable system, I'm comfortable with the detention of individuals with mental health problems for treatment.

todayiamme 15y ago
I think that you're confusing 2 issues; Issue 1 : A large amount of criminals have mental health issues. Issue 2 : We don't like people with mental health issues and we tend to characterise them as "dangerous". The people in Issue 1 are a small subset of people in Issue 2. How you treat people in Issue 1 is a completely different matter than locking up people in Issue 2. It's like saying since 80-90% of rapists are males, we should pre-emptively employ measures such as imprisonment, tracking, banishment and castration for all males (these are measures currently undertaken for certain classes of sex criminals) Clearly a subset is not representative of the entire set. >>> Your argument seems to presuppose that authorities are inherently evil and trying to inflict harm on the individual. One could certainly make the case for that in some totalitarian regimes, but in a healthy democracy I don't believe that's a sustainable view. If you genuinely believe that, make your case and run for office. <<< Alan Turing.
- 15y ago

corin_ 15y ago

Anyone interested in that topic (Aversion therapy for homosexuals) should read http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/what-are-little-boys-made-of-main http://www.boxturtlebulletin.com/what-are-little-boys-made-o... It's a very well researched piece on the impact it had on one boy's life - very moving, very well written, very fascinating.