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Crypto could easily be the largest pyramid scheme in history, I have zero interest in participating even if returns were guaranteed - that's not how I want to m

Crypto could easily be the largest pyramid scheme in history, I have zero interest in participating even if returns were guaranteed - that's not how I want to make money, I see no value being created in these "investments". Recent developments on the stock market kind of killed the market idealism for me. I don't know what's a better alternative, but from where I'm standing the financial system is rewarding wasteful and immoral behaviour and it's degenerating really fast.

SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
I wager once people have to start going back to work and all the free government money dries up, there will be a run on crypto to realize their gains en-masse, and this will trigger a massive wipe out for many latecomers. Frankly, cryptocurrency being invented and created was a huge mistake for society at large. I hope the comeuppance isn't super destructive outside of cryptocurrency circles.
- nly 5y ago
  > I hope the comeuppance isn't super destructive outside of cryptocurrency circles. This is one of my concerns too. I sock away a healthy % of my income in to traditional investments, and I aspire to one day own a home I can raise a family in. The current asset bubble, which I personally believe is the wedge driving cryptocurrency apart from reality, is really hurting those of us with these rather mundane aspirations.
  - SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
    I wish you well and all the best, nly. I hope we get out of this relatively unscathed.
  - lottin 5y ago
    It depends... I think cryptocurrencies might be luring clueless people away from the stock market and into the crypto market, which is probably a good thing for the stock market even if it means lower returns in the short term.
    - nly 5y ago
      Good in theory, but the stock market is booming and so is everything else. In the media this has recently been called the "everything bubble" and TINA (there is no alternative).
- atweiden 5y ago
  > Frankly, cryptocurrency being invented and created was a huge mistake for society at large. I hope the comeuppance isn't super destructive outside of cryptocurrency circles. Satoshi Nakamoto did nothing wrong: hard to imagine, but Bitcoin started out as a crummy C++ GUI Windows application hosted on SourceForge and adopted almost exclusively by batshit insane people. It had no value: you could CPU mine it on any ordinary Windows PC. Many people refused to do even that because of how worthless BTC was at the time. Enter the Libertarian/profiteer cohort, and the rest is history. Really think a bunch of you need to redirect your anger at the ICO game. Try to imagine Vitalik Buterin hard selling a clear gray market IPO on Reddit in combination with a high pressure countdown timer, and lots of fancy lawyers and Swiss foundations. That — the fact so many bitcoins were raised so easily for so little — is what unleashed the hellfire shillnado that has become synonymous with cryptocurrency in the modern era.
  - SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
    I'm still not sure I agree that Satoshi did nothing wrong, per se. But I really appreciate what you're saying, as this does afford some separation of the art (Bitcoin and Co.) from the artist (Satoshi). Satoshi (whether it be he, she, or they) went into creating Bitcoin intended as a peer to peer cash that was easy to spend and outside of government control. Unfortunately, at least in the case of Bitcoin, it has turned into this slow, unwieldy "commodity" that is now rebranded as digital gold. Thanks for your perspective, atweiden.
    - jobigoud 5y ago
      > that is now rebranded as digital gold It was called that before bitcoin even existed. See BitGold, a late 90's precursor to bitcoin.
lnsru 5y ago
I was thinking, that this is my limited world view. Thanks for sharing your. Albeit I earned money with crypto designing mining hardware (but not using it for myself).
prog5 5y ago
But isn't there value being created in actual legitimate blockchain projects like Filecoin and Storj (dropbox replacements)? For these slower growing coins, isn't the value coming from the utility of the product?
- atweiden 5y ago
  > But isn't there value being created in actual legitimate blockchain projects like Filecoin and Storj (dropbox replacements)? For these slower growing coins, isn't the value coming from the utility of the product? No. Cryptocurrency valuation is 100% driven by narrative, categorically. Your post in and of itself exemplifies the narrative pumping rhetoric which is at the core of all cryptocurrency valuation. There are absolutely no exceptions to this, and that is not an exaggeration in any way.
- itsdsmurrell 5y ago
  Yes, many people miss this. It's meant to replace banks and provide an alternate system of money. I have my hopes on Bitcoin Cash for this.
movedx 5y ago
> Crypto could easily be the largest pyramid scheme in history, I have zero interest in participating even if returns were guaranteed - that's not how I want to make money, I see no value being created in these "investments". Yes! Exactly! I have a friend who's doing well from crypto. He bought an NFT for $800 and it's not worth $8,000. Where is the (social) value in that? Except for the social experimentation this is all providing, it's not solving a problem AT ALL! This is how I feel in a nutshell: if I make $1m today, I want it to be because I solved a hard problem for a lot of people, not because of some meaningless, intangible wishy thinking currency.
- baby 5y ago
  What about people buying time pieces (watches)?
  - nly 5y ago
    In the UK, watches, being mechanical in nature, are not subject to capital gains tax on any profits. For this reason alone luxury collectable watches are a smart investment for diversification purposes for the ultra wealthy.
    - movedx 5y ago
      Huh! Learn something new every day.
    - baby 5y ago
      For me they are as good as NFTs
- flashgordon 5y ago
  Welll… If you made 1M today from crypto (and ofcourse you did "relatively" no evil in obtaining so) - wouldnt using that 1M later to actually solve a hard problem (or say a social cause) be just as worth it?
  - reader_mode 5y ago
chii 5y ago
> Recent developments on the stock market kind of killed the market idealism for me why? It's doing the exact thing that it was intended to do - price the value of public companies.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  No - it's pricing the value of what the next guy will pay and spreading false narratives to build the bubble/capitalise on more people joining in. You're actively penalised if you don't play this game because you'll miss out on the temporary gains and shorting is dangerous and pointless with such irrational valuation methods.
perryizgr8 5y ago
> I have zero interest in participating even if returns were guaranteed - that's not how I want to make money This is my thinking too. But I can't fully get rid of the FOMO. What if I could turn my thousands into millions? It would change my life forever.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  Go to a roulete table, put money on 0, then do it again - congratulations you're now a millionare.
tarsinge 5y ago
I hope crypto continues to open eyes on the current state of the stock market.
me_me_me 5y ago
Diamonds are a scam and everyone knows it. They are an over inflated good held by a monopoly of handful producers that tightly control the supply. And nobody gives a fuck. > I see no value being created in these "investments". And stock market is any better? At the inception stock market was a tool to invest and prop up businesses for long term dividend gains. No its pure speculation tool that doesn't benefit anyone but the concentrated wealth, it is so removed from reality (but you already mentioned that). At least I made money of crypto, before the blob of ultraweathly descends on it.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  I don't invest in diamonds (I had to buy a few, but that was an investment of different kind), and I don't really invest in the stockmarket either for the reasons you mentioned. I can make enough money to live comfortably through work, admitedly I would be a lot safer if I had more, I prefer investing in realestate that I can potentially monetise by renting and I can leave to my children. It's probably not the most efficient but I don't want to spend time and effort on investing in to stockmarket, crypto or w/e - I chose SW development because I like to build things that solve problems and be creative - at this point crypto/stocks feel like the exact opposite (initially I gave it the benefit of a doubt but at this point I'm almost certain it's a bubble built on spreading bullshit)

SwimSwimHungry 5y ago

I wager once people have to start going back to work and all the free government money dries up, there will be a run on crypto to realize their gains en-masse, and this will trigger a massive wipe out for many latecomers. Frankly, cryptocurrency being invented and created was a huge mistake for society at large. I hope the comeuppance isn't super destructive outside of cryptocurrency circles.

nly 5y ago
> I hope the comeuppance isn't super destructive outside of cryptocurrency circles. This is one of my concerns too. I sock away a healthy % of my income in to traditional investments, and I aspire to one day own a home I can raise a family in. The current asset bubble, which I personally believe is the wedge driving cryptocurrency apart from reality, is really hurting those of us with these rather mundane aspirations.
- SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
  I wish you well and all the best, nly. I hope we get out of this relatively unscathed.
- lottin 5y ago
  It depends... I think cryptocurrencies might be luring clueless people away from the stock market and into the crypto market, which is probably a good thing for the stock market even if it means lower returns in the short term.
  - nly 5y ago
    Good in theory, but the stock market is booming and so is everything else. In the media this has recently been called the "everything bubble" and TINA (there is no alternative).
atweiden 5y ago
> Frankly, cryptocurrency being invented and created was a huge mistake for society at large. I hope the comeuppance isn't super destructive outside of cryptocurrency circles. Satoshi Nakamoto did nothing wrong: hard to imagine, but Bitcoin started out as a crummy C++ GUI Windows application hosted on SourceForge and adopted almost exclusively by batshit insane people. It had no value: you could CPU mine it on any ordinary Windows PC. Many people refused to do even that because of how worthless BTC was at the time. Enter the Libertarian/profiteer cohort, and the rest is history. Really think a bunch of you need to redirect your anger at the ICO game. Try to imagine Vitalik Buterin hard selling a clear gray market IPO on Reddit in combination with a high pressure countdown timer, and lots of fancy lawyers and Swiss foundations. That — the fact so many bitcoins were raised so easily for so little — is what unleashed the hellfire shillnado that has become synonymous with cryptocurrency in the modern era.
- SwimSwimHungry 5y ago
  I'm still not sure I agree that Satoshi did nothing wrong, per se. But I really appreciate what you're saying, as this does afford some separation of the art (Bitcoin and Co.) from the artist (Satoshi). Satoshi (whether it be he, she, or they) went into creating Bitcoin intended as a peer to peer cash that was easy to spend and outside of government control. Unfortunately, at least in the case of Bitcoin, it has turned into this slow, unwieldy "commodity" that is now rebranded as digital gold. Thanks for your perspective, atweiden.
  - jobigoud 5y ago
    > that is now rebranded as digital gold It was called that before bitcoin even existed. See BitGold, a late 90's precursor to bitcoin.

lnsru 5y ago

I was thinking, that this is my limited world view. Thanks for sharing your. Albeit I earned money with crypto designing mining hardware (but not using it for myself).

prog5 5y ago

But isn't there value being created in actual legitimate blockchain projects like Filecoin and Storj (dropbox replacements)? For these slower growing coins, isn't the value coming from the utility of the product?

atweiden 5y ago
> But isn't there value being created in actual legitimate blockchain projects like Filecoin and Storj (dropbox replacements)? For these slower growing coins, isn't the value coming from the utility of the product? No. Cryptocurrency valuation is 100% driven by narrative, categorically. Your post in and of itself exemplifies the narrative pumping rhetoric which is at the core of all cryptocurrency valuation. There are absolutely no exceptions to this, and that is not an exaggeration in any way.
itsdsmurrell 5y ago
Yes, many people miss this. It's meant to replace banks and provide an alternate system of money. I have my hopes on Bitcoin Cash for this.

movedx 5y ago

> Crypto could easily be the largest pyramid scheme in history, I have zero interest in participating even if returns were guaranteed - that's not how I want to make money, I see no value being created in these "investments". Yes! Exactly! I have a friend who's doing well from crypto. He bought an NFT for $800 and it's not worth $8,000. Where is the (social) value in that? Except for the social experimentation this is all providing, it's not solving a problem AT ALL! This is how I feel in a nutshell: if I make $1m today, I want it to be because I solved a hard problem for a lot of people, not because of some meaningless, intangible wishy thinking currency.

baby 5y ago
What about people buying time pieces (watches)?
- nly 5y ago
  In the UK, watches, being mechanical in nature, are not subject to capital gains tax on any profits. For this reason alone luxury collectable watches are a smart investment for diversification purposes for the ultra wealthy.
  - movedx 5y ago
    Huh! Learn something new every day.
  - baby 5y ago
    For me they are as good as NFTs
flashgordon 5y ago
Welll… If you made 1M today from crypto (and ofcourse you did "relatively" no evil in obtaining so) - wouldnt using that 1M later to actually solve a hard problem (or say a social cause) be just as worth it?
- reader_mode 5y ago

chii 5y ago

> Recent developments on the stock market kind of killed the market idealism for me why? It's doing the exact thing that it was intended to do - price the value of public companies.

reader_mode 5y ago
No - it's pricing the value of what the next guy will pay and spreading false narratives to build the bubble/capitalise on more people joining in. You're actively penalised if you don't play this game because you'll miss out on the temporary gains and shorting is dangerous and pointless with such irrational valuation methods.

perryizgr8 5y ago

> I have zero interest in participating even if returns were guaranteed - that's not how I want to make money This is my thinking too. But I can't fully get rid of the FOMO. What if I could turn my thousands into millions? It would change my life forever.

reader_mode 5y ago
Go to a roulete table, put money on 0, then do it again - congratulations you're now a millionare.

tarsinge 5y ago

I hope crypto continues to open eyes on the current state of the stock market.

me_me_me 5y ago

Diamonds are a scam and everyone knows it. They are an over inflated good held by a monopoly of handful producers that tightly control the supply. And nobody gives a fuck. > I see no value being created in these "investments". And stock market is any better? At the inception stock market was a tool to invest and prop up businesses for long term dividend gains. No its pure speculation tool that doesn't benefit anyone but the concentrated wealth, it is so removed from reality (but you already mentioned that). At least I made money of crypto, before the blob of ultraweathly descends on it.

reader_mode 5y ago
I don't invest in diamonds (I had to buy a few, but that was an investment of different kind), and I don't really invest in the stockmarket either for the reasons you mentioned. I can make enough money to live comfortably through work, admitedly I would be a lot safer if I had more, I prefer investing in realestate that I can potentially monetise by renting and I can leave to my children. It's probably not the most efficient but I don't want to spend time and effort on investing in to stockmarket, crypto or w/e - I chose SW development because I like to build things that solve problems and be creative - at this point crypto/stocks feel like the exact opposite (initially I gave it the benefit of a doubt but at this point I'm almost certain it's a bubble built on spreading bullshit)