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> "In 2016, the commissioner demanded Facebook stop collecting user data from WhatsApp. In that case, Facebook worked with Germany to iron things out. It does n

> "In 2016, the commissioner demanded Facebook stop collecting user data from WhatsApp. In that case, Facebook worked with Germany to iron things out. It does not appear that the social media platform is willing to cooperate this time." This line to me sounds incredibly sinister. For a long time I've been fearmongering about the level of power held by these multinationals approaching those of small states. It sounds rather disconcerting when Facebook is engaging in diplomacy and brinksmanship with powerful nation states. Even worse, when they're winning. It's at least encouraging that the European Union is concerned about Facebook's growing power and political influence. The incumbent American institution seems to have all-but ignored this growing problem. Of course there were lots of crocodile tears about "Russian collusion" and "Fortifying the Election", and so on. However through all that, there doesn't seem to have been much questioning of the nature of Big Tech's power, only the direction of its application.

that_guy_iain 5y ago
Germany ist’s a small State. It‘s basically the most powerful nation in Europe. I can‘t see any benefit for Facebook from this. There is a line of thought that Germany decides lots of EU decisions, could we see Facebook banned from the EU? Unlikely, Facebook will probably back down like they did with Austraila, but if things keep escalating after a Germany ban I think an EU ban would be talked about.
- Cadwhisker 5y ago
  Facebook and governments are very experienced at spinning news in a way that makes them look good. The Australian government was looking for mandatory negotiations with media companies, forcing them to pay for content. They relaxed that "mandatory" clause a bit and added longer periods for notification and negotiation. In the past year, Facebook has signed revenue-sharing deals with most of the major news platforms in Australia (ongoing) and on Monday of this week, they announced they would be investing $15 million in regional news media. https://www.fool.com.au/2021/05/10/facebook-to-invest-15-million-into-regional-australian-news-media/ https://www.fool.com.au/2021/05/10/facebook-to-invest-15-mil... Google has also signed contracts with some of the major media companies.
  - chii 5y ago
    which is, imho, a loss for journalism integrity in australia. The media law was instigated by the incumbent media conglomerate in australia, to prevent revenue leakage to google, but still allow the utilization to bring in traffic etc. Google, and the other tech companies should've strong armed, and threaten to quit (and perhaps, actually do) displaying _any_ australian media outlets in their search engines. I think google didn't want to play chicken because the fees they are asked to pay is relatively small (given their size), and a fight with the aus gov't would've been a bit ugly (because it's an indirect fight that the media conglomerate has managed to strong arm the gov't to fight for them). Alas, it wasn't meant to be, and Google (and others) deemed it a small price to pay - what a letdown for ordinary australians and a huge win for the entrenched media conglomerate in australia.
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Perhaps Facebook believes that the regulator has stepped beyond its legal authority and would prefer to have a court decide the matter? It's a pretty normal thing. Bureaucrats may be powerful, but, in countries I'm familiar with, they are limited by the law in terms of what actions they may take, what justifications they must provide, and the reach of their decisions' force. Facebook appears to be wagering that this decision will not be enforced, presumably due to an insufficiency of one of these factors. > Unlikely, Facebook will probably back down like they did with Austraila Also, you're mistaken about what happened here. Australia blinked. Facebook got most of what it wanted. Only then did Facebook unban Australian news.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    > Perhaps Facebook believes that the regulator has stepped beyond its legal authority and would prefer to have a court decide the matter? Then they can contest the injunction and if wasn't justified, it will be revoked. But they can't just ignore it.
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      Apparently they can just ignore it, though, at the risk of whatever consequences would apply. I confess I do not know the details of the legalities around this particular injunction, whether it behaves like an American injunction, etc. I notice that not a court but a commissioner issued this injunction, and not even a commissioner with authority over all of Germany, but one just within the (state? province? municipality?) of Hamburg. I'm not sure whether that is of any import but it does seem odd to me. Like, if the city of Atlanta had a privacy commission and ordered Facebook not to do something, Facebook would probably just ignore that since cities in the U.S. do not have the power to regulate interstate commerce. I have no idea whether the same type of limitation exists in this case. Presumably Facebook weighed the risks before going ahead. We'll see if their decision turns out to be the right one.
      - fakedang 5y ago
        Just pointing out that Hamburg is a free city republican state within the federal republic of Germany. So I don't think it carries any water.
- disabled 5y ago
  > could we see Facebook banned from the EU? I wish they were banned from the EU, for a variety of reasons. As an American living in Croatia, I can affirm that social media works differently abroad and it is a lot more pleasant. Facebook is probably exploiting a loophole. The European Commission [1] should make an example out of them. "More than 90% of Europeans say they want the same data protection rights across the EU and regardless of where their data is processed." [2] Facebook will lose some in this, but they will reap some benefits, by trying the Germany route, or they would not be attempting this. They probably have some carte blanche (wild card) that they plan on playing. The EU should make an example of them. Facebook have always been in contempt of the GDPR, and are certainly perpetually violating it. Data privacy is not a joke. It is a legal framework in the EU. Also, it is about respect of others and not abusing their rights. Yes, it is a right in the EU: "The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights stipulates that EU citizens have the right to protection of their personal data." [3] [1] European Commission Information: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodie... [1][2] https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/data-protection-eu_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/data...
- CodesInChaos 5y ago
  This order didn't come from the German federal government. It came from the data protection official of one state (Hamburg). It don't think he has too much influence of the German government.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
"However through all that, there doesn't seem to have been much questioning of the nature of Big Tech's power, only the direction of it application." Hopefully this will change and more people come to understand that this is an issue. Here is the press release from HmbDfPI which describes the collection and usage restrictions in more detail: https://datenschutz-hamburg.de/assets/pdf/2021-05-11-press-release-facebook.pdf https://datenschutz-hamburg.de/assets/pdf/2021-05-11-press-r... The injunction only lasts three months, during which time the Commissioner will bring the matter to the EDPB. There is no guarantee the EDPB will pursue it.
ChuckMcM 5y ago
This is perhaps where Eric Prince's mercenarys as a service MAAS business can help.
Smoosh 5y ago
I have remarked before that Zuckerberg wants to be the Murdoch of the 21st century. To wield his media influence as a "kingmaker" (mostly quietly and behind the scenes, but with those seeking to gain or hold power knowing they will need Facebook's co-operation). And ensuring as compensation an unchallenged position for Facebook, and minimal taxation and other interference.
WhyNotHugo 5y ago
I agree, though this is an understatement: > the level of power held by these multinationals approaching those of small states I'd say Facebook, Google and a few others are far more powerful than MANY small states.

that_guy_iain 5y ago

Germany ist’s a small State. It‘s basically the most powerful nation in Europe. I can‘t see any benefit for Facebook from this. There is a line of thought that Germany decides lots of EU decisions, could we see Facebook banned from the EU? Unlikely, Facebook will probably back down like they did with Austraila, but if things keep escalating after a Germany ban I think an EU ban would be talked about.

Cadwhisker 5y ago
Facebook and governments are very experienced at spinning news in a way that makes them look good. The Australian government was looking for mandatory negotiations with media companies, forcing them to pay for content. They relaxed that "mandatory" clause a bit and added longer periods for notification and negotiation. In the past year, Facebook has signed revenue-sharing deals with most of the major news platforms in Australia (ongoing) and on Monday of this week, they announced they would be investing $15 million in regional news media. https://www.fool.com.au/2021/05/10/facebook-to-invest-15-million-into-regional-australian-news-media/ https://www.fool.com.au/2021/05/10/facebook-to-invest-15-mil... Google has also signed contracts with some of the major media companies.
- chii 5y ago
  which is, imho, a loss for journalism integrity in australia. The media law was instigated by the incumbent media conglomerate in australia, to prevent revenue leakage to google, but still allow the utilization to bring in traffic etc. Google, and the other tech companies should've strong armed, and threaten to quit (and perhaps, actually do) displaying _any_ australian media outlets in their search engines. I think google didn't want to play chicken because the fees they are asked to pay is relatively small (given their size), and a fight with the aus gov't would've been a bit ugly (because it's an indirect fight that the media conglomerate has managed to strong arm the gov't to fight for them). Alas, it wasn't meant to be, and Google (and others) deemed it a small price to pay - what a letdown for ordinary australians and a huge win for the entrenched media conglomerate in australia.
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Perhaps Facebook believes that the regulator has stepped beyond its legal authority and would prefer to have a court decide the matter? It's a pretty normal thing. Bureaucrats may be powerful, but, in countries I'm familiar with, they are limited by the law in terms of what actions they may take, what justifications they must provide, and the reach of their decisions' force. Facebook appears to be wagering that this decision will not be enforced, presumably due to an insufficiency of one of these factors. > Unlikely, Facebook will probably back down like they did with Austraila Also, you're mistaken about what happened here. Australia blinked. Facebook got most of what it wanted. Only then did Facebook unban Australian news.
- anoncake 5y ago
  > Perhaps Facebook believes that the regulator has stepped beyond its legal authority and would prefer to have a court decide the matter? Then they can contest the injunction and if wasn't justified, it will be revoked. But they can't just ignore it.
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    Apparently they can just ignore it, though, at the risk of whatever consequences would apply. I confess I do not know the details of the legalities around this particular injunction, whether it behaves like an American injunction, etc. I notice that not a court but a commissioner issued this injunction, and not even a commissioner with authority over all of Germany, but one just within the (state? province? municipality?) of Hamburg. I'm not sure whether that is of any import but it does seem odd to me. Like, if the city of Atlanta had a privacy commission and ordered Facebook not to do something, Facebook would probably just ignore that since cities in the U.S. do not have the power to regulate interstate commerce. I have no idea whether the same type of limitation exists in this case. Presumably Facebook weighed the risks before going ahead. We'll see if their decision turns out to be the right one.
    - fakedang 5y ago
      Just pointing out that Hamburg is a free city republican state within the federal republic of Germany. So I don't think it carries any water.
disabled 5y ago
> could we see Facebook banned from the EU? I wish they were banned from the EU, for a variety of reasons. As an American living in Croatia, I can affirm that social media works differently abroad and it is a lot more pleasant. Facebook is probably exploiting a loophole. The European Commission [1] should make an example out of them. "More than 90% of Europeans say they want the same data protection rights across the EU and regardless of where their data is processed." [2] Facebook will lose some in this, but they will reap some benefits, by trying the Germany route, or they would not be attempting this. They probably have some carte blanche (wild card) that they plan on playing. The EU should make an example of them. Facebook have always been in contempt of the GDPR, and are certainly perpetually violating it. Data privacy is not a joke. It is a legal framework in the EU. Also, it is about respect of others and not abusing their rights. Yes, it is a right in the EU: "The EU Charter of Fundamental Rights stipulates that EU citizens have the right to protection of their personal data." [3] [1] European Commission Information: https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodies/european-commission_en https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/institutions-bodie... [1][2] https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/data-protection-eu_en https://ec.europa.eu/info/law/law-topic/data-protection/data...
CodesInChaos 5y ago
This order didn't come from the German federal government. It came from the data protection official of one state (Hamburg). It don't think he has too much influence of the German government.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

"However through all that, there doesn't seem to have been much questioning of the nature of Big Tech's power, only the direction of it application." Hopefully this will change and more people come to understand that this is an issue. Here is the press release from HmbDfPI which describes the collection and usage restrictions in more detail: https://datenschutz-hamburg.de/assets/pdf/2021-05-11-press-release-facebook.pdf https://datenschutz-hamburg.de/assets/pdf/2021-05-11-press-r... The injunction only lasts three months, during which time the Commissioner will bring the matter to the EDPB. There is no guarantee the EDPB will pursue it.

ChuckMcM 5y ago

This is perhaps where Eric Prince's mercenarys as a service MAAS business can help.

Smoosh 5y ago

I have remarked before that Zuckerberg wants to be the Murdoch of the 21st century. To wield his media influence as a "kingmaker" (mostly quietly and behind the scenes, but with those seeking to gain or hold power knowing they will need Facebook's co-operation). And ensuring as compensation an unchallenged position for Facebook, and minimal taxation and other interference.

WhyNotHugo 5y ago

I agree, though this is an understatement: > the level of power held by these multinationals approaching those of small states I'd say Facebook, Google and a few others are far more powerful than MANY small states.