8 ms·

Severe burnout and severe depression, both of which go hand-in-hand, are really difficult if not impossible to understand and appreciate for those who haven't b

Severe burnout and severe depression, both of which go hand-in-hand, are really difficult if not impossible to understand and appreciate for those who haven't been through it themselves. At some point some people come to a breaking point... what used to be known as a "nervous breakdown". I think of it as a progressive paralysis, a psychological (not physical) inability to continue. The lucky ones can "just snap out of it", take a break and come back refreshed, or switch jobs and everything's ok again.. or at least bearable. For the rest of us, it's not so easy. Yet, paradoxically, and this can be a source of tremendous guilt, "getting over it" should be the easiest thing in the world. "You just..." fill in the blank.. pick up the phone, dial the number, take a shower, brush your teeth, get out of bed, put on your clothes, go to work, do what you know how to do and what you've been doing for X number of years all along, deal with your colleagues, deal with your boss, eat your lunch, eat your dinner, go back to sleep, wake up for another day, rinse and repeat day in and day out again and again... Some can manage it, but for some it gets to be too much.. simple things, such simple things... most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
jolux 6y ago
>most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we? This whole comment, but especially this part, speaks to me. Thank you.
systemvoltage 6y ago
I've always wondered the following: - What precisely constitutes a burnout? - How do you objectively differentiate between a challenging situation and over-stressed situation leading to burnout? - What are the differences in tolerance for stressful situation from person to person? Is it related to certain personalities? - How to conduct a self-analysis to determine if you're going through a burnout? - Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout? I've always heard of burnout, but like depression which has specific symptoms and clinical diagnosis, what are the properties, symptoms and characteristics of a burnout? I am wondering if I am going through one? I like what you said about guilt - I feel like I've gone through hell in workplaces and always curious if I should just "suck-it-in" or quit and find a better job.
- cratermoon 6y ago
  > What precisely constitutes a burnout? You know you're burned out when things that used to motivate you to get up early and work through lunch now feel like burdens. Not just work stuff either, but burnout it starts affecting your life outside work, on things that you thought had nothing to do with work. > a challenging situation You're challenged when, even if you don't know how to get through it, you have in your mind a structure, a way of getting through it. You know you can figure it out, you just have to work it out, and the process of working through it energizes you. You're over-stressed when you don't see a way through, or when you see the way through but dread doing the necessary things. Tolerance for stress depends, in part, on a person's level of resilience: your ability to face reality exactly as it is, your sense that what you do will have some meaningful impact, and your self-confidence in your ability to handle the situation. You might remember a time when you were a kid and something you dealt with seemed like the end of the world, but now you look back and wonder what the big deal was. Your ability to manage stressful situations grew. In short, when you're burnt out, you're tired even when you get enough sleep, you are reflexively cynical and critical of the work, and you begin to feel like problems you should be able to handle require extraordinary efforts. Those feelings happen now and then when you're not burnt out, but if it becomes chronic, that's burnout.
  - unchocked 6y ago
    Those are wonderfully constructed definitions. Thank you.
    - cratermoon 6y ago
      You're welcome. I hope they help at least one person avoid or get out of a bad situation.
- ceh123 6y ago
  >Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout? Oooooh boy you should look into medicine. This is a profession that has been dealing with insane burnout since before software existed and is only recently getting any amount of attention from within the community. (Think 80+ hour surgical residency for 8 years with the self-perpetuating cycle of "that's what I had to do so I make these residents do it too" logic of hazing) I was previously pre-med and at one of my med school interviews (when the school was bragging about their mental health resources) they mentioned a story of a physician who played candy crush every morning before he got out of bed "just so that he could have one win for the day."
practicalpants 6y ago
At risk of sounding belittling to those spend their life giving their labor to someone else, I think we can't go on indefinitely because we aspire to get something better out of our lives, and somewhere perhaps deep in our minds or hearts we know we need better. After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation.
- whimsicalism 6y ago
  > After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation. Psh, what preceded that was far worse and also involved a lifetime of laboring for someone else's benefit.
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
    In some colonies. Oppression and servitude was not a universal constant.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      Not merely in colonies. Feudalism was the law of the land for essentially most of the world The yeoman artisan period has always been more myth than reality.
      - arvinsim 6y ago
        By the looks of it, we are going back to feudalism soon.
  - josephg 6y ago
    So? The fact that slavery- and slavery-adjacent relationships were common through a lot of human history doesn't make them acceptable now. My take on this is that there's some part of our minds that knows we don't have to be servants to our companies. And knowing that, yet subjugating ourselves anyway creates an itch. That itch grows a little every day we wake up to an alarm and haul ourselves into the office for useless meetings. We know deep down this isn't an acceptable road for our lives. But we're here anyway, with a story that somehow justifies closing jira tickets - day in, day out. Coincidentally, depression is an evolved mechanism for stopping you from doing something that you know deep down is unhealthy for your soul but habitual. It works by every day making it harder to do the thing you know you shouldn't do. The longer you resist it, the deeper depression burrows, until you finally can't bring yourself to make pleasantries with your spouse - or, in this case, haul yourself into the office. For my money, burnout is a depression symptom which grows out of a long term, habitual suppression of your will. "I want X, but I can't have it because of <habitual rationalisation>". After growing up being told we can do anything, we aren't adapted for existence as a few pixels in a giant org chart. Burnout is a healthy backstop to force you to pursue the life you need, even if each day you can convince yourself you don't want it.
anonytrary 6y ago
Yeah I always cringe when I see people on LinkedIn talk about burn out and depression like it's something you can decide to "get over". A few months ago, I saw one of my old co-workers post something ignorant (she's a VP?/leader) about how if something has you down, you should only be upset for a few days and move on. I think that is a very idealistic opinion that lacks nuance and appreciation for the complexity of the human psyche. It's poor form to diminish the experiences of others.
- someonehere 6y ago
  reddit.com/r/thanksimcured is full of this.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
VWWHFSfQ 6y ago
Your quoted phrases: 1) "nervous breakdown" 2) "just snap out of it", 3) "getting over it" 4) "You just..."
firecall 6y ago
I've been through it. Burn out, Depression. Quit a job, six months off. I see people doing that as taking control. We are the strong ones. We are the ones who reject the vile life that is corporate cubicles. People who seem to be able to tolerate it have in reality just given up. They are reduced to accepting the grey cubicle and unchanging life that is working in an office. Sure, there are some shining lights and people that thrive. But the majority of people in offices are beaten down and just trying to stay anonymous and survive. A nervous breakdown is going on the offensive! It's screaming no more! It's taking back your life in a burst of energy that leaves you exhausted and takes time to recover from. But when you do recover, and you will, you come out better and wiser than before. I guard my mental health like the Crown Jewels now and really try not to do anything I don't want to do!
- trgodero 6y ago
  Yes! So much yes to this. Depression, anxiety, burnout, these are all messages from your subconscious that you need change, radical, drastic change. You need to stand up and shout to the world and to your subconscious that you won't take this shit anymore. There are a (probably) minority of people with genuine brain chemistry imbalances, genetic or otherwise, that cause depression. But for the vast, vast majority of people being fed pills and trying to ignore their problems, your mental health issues are signs of issues you need to deal with, unresolved traumas, unfulfilling work, love, family, or social situations, political problems that you can't accept but you won't engage with, and so on.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  > the vile life that is corporate cubicles I’m sorry, but this triggered me. Have you tried an open office? I long for my cubicles. At least then I had like 4 square meters to myself. Both my space and my privacy have been degraded more and more.
  - firecall 6y ago
    Hi! Actually I lumped in cubicles with open offices as being the same thing. I've worked in both! I'll try to be careful with my words here: So I found no difference in my actual happiness or well being such. I do agree that having a 'home' in an office is important - and a cubicle you can call your own and decorate is something... Totally agree that open plan noisy offices are a nightmare! Hot-desking is another level of hell again! All things considered I dont have poisitve views of any office situation based on my now >25years of experience! (damn, has it been that long...) But I appreciate that some people do. So thats just me :-) These days I get to work from my home office with my wife and it's great! :-)
aphextron 6y ago
>Some can manage it, but for some it gets to be too much.. simple things, such simple things... most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we? Because there's more to life than personal happiness. Struggle is the definition of life. It's what gives anything meaning. People have families that they support, and being that thankless workhorse for them ends up being a deeper satisfaction than personal moment to moment happiness. We could all go sit in cabins in the woods and whittle away on sticks until we die and probably be "happier". But if a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever?
- swagasaurus-rex 6y ago
  Why not both personal moment to moment happiness, and also be able to provide a living for oneself and a family? There are some things worth struggling against, but I see no better reason to quit than a pointless struggle.
- defterGoose 6y ago
  | That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever? Does grinding oneself into dust at a thankless job for a faceless corporation in the name of perpetual economic "growth" at the cost of the entirety of survivable nature as we know it have any meaning whatsoever? Because that's the flipside of what you're saying. It may not be possible for us to go back to a time before modern technology, medicine, etc (or maybe its more likely than we think), but is it any wonder that so many peoples' brains yearn for something like that? The definition of life may be struggle, as you say, but struggle without self-determination may be the very thing that kills whatever "human" is.
- RobRivera 6y ago
  I'm a nihilist, nothing has meaning. jk, but seriously, meaning is subjective, and nihilism is a thing. one mans isolation may mean worlds to him, and thats good enough. also, careful about shaming people for being content with personal happiness...for some thats an accomplishment.
- 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

jolux 6y ago

>most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we? This whole comment, but especially this part, speaks to me. Thank you.

systemvoltage 6y ago

I've always wondered the following: - What precisely constitutes a burnout? - How do you objectively differentiate between a challenging situation and over-stressed situation leading to burnout? - What are the differences in tolerance for stressful situation from person to person? Is it related to certain personalities? - How to conduct a self-analysis to determine if you're going through a burnout? - Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout? I've always heard of burnout, but like depression which has specific symptoms and clinical diagnosis, what are the properties, symptoms and characteristics of a burnout? I am wondering if I am going through one? I like what you said about guilt - I feel like I've gone through hell in workplaces and always curious if I should just "suck-it-in" or quit and find a better job.

cratermoon 6y ago
> What precisely constitutes a burnout? You know you're burned out when things that used to motivate you to get up early and work through lunch now feel like burdens. Not just work stuff either, but burnout it starts affecting your life outside work, on things that you thought had nothing to do with work. > a challenging situation You're challenged when, even if you don't know how to get through it, you have in your mind a structure, a way of getting through it. You know you can figure it out, you just have to work it out, and the process of working through it energizes you. You're over-stressed when you don't see a way through, or when you see the way through but dread doing the necessary things. Tolerance for stress depends, in part, on a person's level of resilience: your ability to face reality exactly as it is, your sense that what you do will have some meaningful impact, and your self-confidence in your ability to handle the situation. You might remember a time when you were a kid and something you dealt with seemed like the end of the world, but now you look back and wonder what the big deal was. Your ability to manage stressful situations grew. In short, when you're burnt out, you're tired even when you get enough sleep, you are reflexively cynical and critical of the work, and you begin to feel like problems you should be able to handle require extraordinary efforts. Those feelings happen now and then when you're not burnt out, but if it becomes chronic, that's burnout.
- unchocked 6y ago
  Those are wonderfully constructed definitions. Thank you.
  - cratermoon 6y ago
    You're welcome. I hope they help at least one person avoid or get out of a bad situation.
ceh123 6y ago
>Do other non-software professions go through burnout? Alternatively, is software engineering more prone to burnout? Oooooh boy you should look into medicine. This is a profession that has been dealing with insane burnout since before software existed and is only recently getting any amount of attention from within the community. (Think 80+ hour surgical residency for 8 years with the self-perpetuating cycle of "that's what I had to do so I make these residents do it too" logic of hazing) I was previously pre-med and at one of my med school interviews (when the school was bragging about their mental health resources) they mentioned a story of a physician who played candy crush every morning before he got out of bed "just so that he could have one win for the day."

practicalpants 6y ago

At risk of sounding belittling to those spend their life giving their labor to someone else, I think we can't go on indefinitely because we aspire to get something better out of our lives, and somewhere perhaps deep in our minds or hearts we know we need better. After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation.

whimsicalism 6y ago
> After all this whole concept of spending a career at someone else's company only started in the late 20th C when the industrial rev created the modern corporation. Psh, what preceded that was far worse and also involved a lifetime of laboring for someone else's benefit.
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
  In some colonies. Oppression and servitude was not a universal constant.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    Not merely in colonies. Feudalism was the law of the land for essentially most of the world The yeoman artisan period has always been more myth than reality.
    - arvinsim 6y ago
      By the looks of it, we are going back to feudalism soon.
- josephg 6y ago
  So? The fact that slavery- and slavery-adjacent relationships were common through a lot of human history doesn't make them acceptable now. My take on this is that there's some part of our minds that knows we don't have to be servants to our companies. And knowing that, yet subjugating ourselves anyway creates an itch. That itch grows a little every day we wake up to an alarm and haul ourselves into the office for useless meetings. We know deep down this isn't an acceptable road for our lives. But we're here anyway, with a story that somehow justifies closing jira tickets - day in, day out. Coincidentally, depression is an evolved mechanism for stopping you from doing something that you know deep down is unhealthy for your soul but habitual. It works by every day making it harder to do the thing you know you shouldn't do. The longer you resist it, the deeper depression burrows, until you finally can't bring yourself to make pleasantries with your spouse - or, in this case, haul yourself into the office. For my money, burnout is a depression symptom which grows out of a long term, habitual suppression of your will. "I want X, but I can't have it because of <habitual rationalisation>". After growing up being told we can do anything, we aren't adapted for existence as a few pixels in a giant org chart. Burnout is a healthy backstop to force you to pursue the life you need, even if each day you can convince yourself you don't want it.

anonytrary 6y ago

Yeah I always cringe when I see people on LinkedIn talk about burn out and depression like it's something you can decide to "get over". A few months ago, I saw one of my old co-workers post something ignorant (she's a VP?/leader) about how if something has you down, you should only be upset for a few days and move on. I think that is a very idealistic opinion that lacks nuance and appreciation for the complexity of the human psyche. It's poor form to diminish the experiences of others.

someonehere 6y ago
reddit.com/r/thanksimcured is full of this.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

VWWHFSfQ 6y ago

Your quoted phrases: 1) "nervous breakdown" 2) "just snap out of it", 3) "getting over it" 4) "You just..."

firecall 6y ago

I've been through it. Burn out, Depression. Quit a job, six months off. I see people doing that as taking control. We are the strong ones. We are the ones who reject the vile life that is corporate cubicles. People who seem to be able to tolerate it have in reality just given up. They are reduced to accepting the grey cubicle and unchanging life that is working in an office. Sure, there are some shining lights and people that thrive. But the majority of people in offices are beaten down and just trying to stay anonymous and survive. A nervous breakdown is going on the offensive! It's screaming no more! It's taking back your life in a burst of energy that leaves you exhausted and takes time to recover from. But when you do recover, and you will, you come out better and wiser than before. I guard my mental health like the Crown Jewels now and really try not to do anything I don't want to do!

trgodero 6y ago
Yes! So much yes to this. Depression, anxiety, burnout, these are all messages from your subconscious that you need change, radical, drastic change. You need to stand up and shout to the world and to your subconscious that you won't take this shit anymore. There are a (probably) minority of people with genuine brain chemistry imbalances, genetic or otherwise, that cause depression. But for the vast, vast majority of people being fed pills and trying to ignore their problems, your mental health issues are signs of issues you need to deal with, unresolved traumas, unfulfilling work, love, family, or social situations, political problems that you can't accept but you won't engage with, and so on.
Aeolun 6y ago
> the vile life that is corporate cubicles I’m sorry, but this triggered me. Have you tried an open office? I long for my cubicles. At least then I had like 4 square meters to myself. Both my space and my privacy have been degraded more and more.
- firecall 6y ago
  Hi! Actually I lumped in cubicles with open offices as being the same thing. I've worked in both! I'll try to be careful with my words here: So I found no difference in my actual happiness or well being such. I do agree that having a 'home' in an office is important - and a cubicle you can call your own and decorate is something... Totally agree that open plan noisy offices are a nightmare! Hot-desking is another level of hell again! All things considered I dont have poisitve views of any office situation based on my now >25years of experience! (damn, has it been that long...) But I appreciate that some people do. So thats just me :-) These days I get to work from my home office with my wife and it's great! :-)

aphextron 6y ago

>Some can manage it, but for some it gets to be too much.. simple things, such simple things... most can do it, their whole lives, they just do it, why can't we? Because there's more to life than personal happiness. Struggle is the definition of life. It's what gives anything meaning. People have families that they support, and being that thankless workhorse for them ends up being a deeper satisfaction than personal moment to moment happiness. We could all go sit in cabins in the woods and whittle away on sticks until we die and probably be "happier". But if a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever?

swagasaurus-rex 6y ago
Why not both personal moment to moment happiness, and also be able to provide a living for oneself and a family? There are some things worth struggling against, but I see no better reason to quit than a pointless struggle.
defterGoose 6y ago
| That is to say, does a person in isolation enjoying their own happiness have any meaning whatsoever? Does grinding oneself into dust at a thankless job for a faceless corporation in the name of perpetual economic "growth" at the cost of the entirety of survivable nature as we know it have any meaning whatsoever? Because that's the flipside of what you're saying. It may not be possible for us to go back to a time before modern technology, medicine, etc (or maybe its more likely than we think), but is it any wonder that so many peoples' brains yearn for something like that? The definition of life may be struggle, as you say, but struggle without self-determination may be the very thing that kills whatever "human" is.
RobRivera 6y ago
I'm a nihilist, nothing has meaning. jk, but seriously, meaning is subjective, and nihilism is a thing. one mans isolation may mean worlds to him, and thats good enough. also, careful about shaming people for being content with personal happiness...for some thats an accomplishment.
6y ago