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Future Wi-Fi devices will be able to see through your home and business walls, for activity monitoring and biometric identification, https://www.theregister.com
by transpute 6y ago
Future Wi-Fi devices will be able to see through your home and business walls, for activity monitoring and biometric identification, https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/31/wifi_devices_monitoring/ https://www.theregister.com/2021/03/31/wifi_devices_monitori...
> In three years or so, the Wi-Fi specification is scheduled to get an upgrade that will turn wireless devices into sensors capable of gathering data about the people and objects bathed in their signals... When 802.11bf will be finalized and introduced as an IEEE standard in September 2024, Wi-Fi will cease to be a communication-only standard and will legitimately become a full-fledged sensing paradigm... tracking can be done surreptitiously because Wi-Fi signals can penetrate walls, don't require light, and don't offer any visible indicator of their presence.
IEEE 802.11bf paper: https://arxiv.org/abs/2103.14918 https://arxiv.org/abs/2103.14918
Papers on device-free wireless sensing (DFWS): https://dhalperi.github.io/linux-80211n-csitool/ https://dhalperi.github.io/linux-80211n-csitool/
Remote sensing with low-cost ESP32 and 802.11n: https://academic.oup.com/jcde/article/7/5/644/5837600 https://academic.oup.com/jcde/article/7/5/644/5837600
- beermonster 6y agoAnd let’s not forget also Amazon Sidewalk Scary times.
- swiley 6y agoOnly if you tolerate devices with non-free software.
- ethbr0 6y agoLike any TV?
- swiley 6y agoYeah or anything else with non-free firmware.
- doggodaddo78 6y agoSo, everything practical.
- wutXthree 6y agoIf you bought it, you own it. Does your DVD player hardware come with a license agreement?
- kadoban 6y agoI can't tell if I'm missing something here because for some reason I think you're expecting the answer to be "no"? But, yes DVD players come with license agreements, EULAs.
- wutXthree 6y agoHunh? So you are saying that if I buy the DVD player at https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-dvd-player-with-hd-upconversion-black/4790739.p?skuId=4790739 https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-dvd-player-with-hd-upconve... that I'm agreeing to an "EULA" that doesn't seem to exist on the site and that is apparently not mentioned at all before purchase? Please tell me you're joking.
- kadoban 6y agoDo you live in the USA? Very likely yes that DVD player will come with a EULA (End User License Agreement) in/on the box when it arrives. Other places I'm not sure, but I'd guess you'll get one anyway. Will they hold up in court? Who knows. But look and you're likely to find one they'll at least pretend applies to you. (And to be clear, yes I agree that this is _ridiculous_)
- kuschku 6y agoIf you're in the EU, that DVD player won't have a EULA attached. If you're in the US, it will.
- 6y ago
- neolog 6y agoCommercial displays are a solution here, though they're expensive.
- danielheath 6y agoExpensive compared to the advertising-subsidised consumer version, maybe.
- ethbr0 6y agoExpensive compared to retail-volume models. This is also a fight against manufacturing economies of scale.
- slimsag 6y agoSamsung sells "Commercial signage displays" to people, $1k for a 65" display. e.g. the Samsung QB65R on Amazon So yeah it's like $100-200 more expensive, but hardly seems.. unapproachable?
- bonestamp2 6y agoDon't put your wifi credentials into your TV, then you've effectively got a giant monitor/commercial display. If you're feeling especially crafty, open the back of your TV and disconnect the wifi/bluetooth board. It's a discrete board in all of my TVs of different brands. I assume they build them this way so they can use the same network board design/production for years and just upgrade the main logic board in newer models.
- JetAlone 6y agoCan't say I'm planning to buy a TV anytime soon but that's good advice, thank you.
- SilverRed 6y ago>Don't put your wifi credentials into your TV Amazon has a solution to this. If your tv is within wifi range of an amazon device, your TV will be able to connect to a network. It might even be your neighbors device.
- totetsu 6y agoNever needed a TV once since I was old enough for P2P to be invented
- Lammy 6y agoOr your neighbors do.
- FridayoLeary 6y agoIs that some sort of hatch in the pavement? You order something on Prime, and moments later, a slab embossed with Amazons' logo opens, a deliveryperson jumps out and deposits the package into your outstretched arm.
- doggodaddo78 6y agoAlmost. It's anyone with Amazon IoTs sharing wifi with each other.
- tialaramex 6y agoIt's ambient network access, a desirable behaviour which I anticipate our descendants (or their descendants) will take for granted. Imagine gradually choking as you wait for a friend to open their front door - oops, you forgot their air doesn't know you're allowed to use Oxygen, hope they get here in time to explicitly authorise you to breathe... Because of the Network Effect the grand total number of Networks you care about will always be... one. So, it doesn't make sense to have a dozen fiercely independent WiFi networks in the same physical volume all of which are, in fact, just offering access to the same network (the Internet) but with separate credentials needed for each. There have been very slow steps on the obvious way forward here. If you've been a student somewhere civilized in the last couple of decades you might have seen EduRoam. Under EduROAM your credentials from say, the University of Florida, or Stanford work at MIT and NYU, but also in Oxford, and in Tokyo. No more need to maintain separate "guest" networks so that the visiting lecturer's laptop works. But most of us, most of the time, are using dozens of little pointless fiefdoms.
- nine_k 6y agoYou will still have to identity particular users, because you want to sell access, because you want to identity those who break the rules and attack other users. But most importantly, users want to separate their networks from one another. OTOH the technology can move from private radios to the model of cellular networks, where you don't care which tower you connect to, and the security / authorization lives at a different level.
- doggodaddo78 6y agoYup. Even radiuz was probably better. https://wifinetnews.com/archives/2004/06/radiuz_combines_wpa-enterprise_with_free_access.html https://wifinetnews.com/archives/2004/06/radiuz_combines_wpa...
- salawat 6y agoThis is one of those things that shouldn't even have a standard made for it. What does everyone think is going to happen with capabilities like that?
- transpute 6y agoGood news, the paper mentions privacy. > We identify a number of critical issues that need to be addressed in this space... First, individuals should be provided the opportunity to opt out of SENS services – in other words, to avoid being monitored and tracked by the Wi-Fi devices around them. Bad news, the paper proposes remote human identification by every Wi-Fi device. > This would require the widespread introduction of reliable SENS algorithm for human or animal identification. Would opt-in be legally easier than requiring human body scan registration for opt-out of Wi-Fi remote sensing?
- brobdingnagians 6y agoIt would be better to have a beacon that simply broadcasts that you do not want to be tracked, with no further identifying features. There isn't really a good reason for identifying you to then look up that you don't want to be tracked. Make that legally binding and enforce it. Or, better yet, make it totally opt in.
- farrelmahaztra 6y agoHow would opt-in work in practice? Say, if this gets pushed out on $CAFE public wifi for analytics. Would it be something akin to "tick this consent box to use the wifi"? And if $CAFE tracks you regardless of you not ticking the box or connecting to the network, how do I detect that as a regular customer?
- salawat 6y agoThis is a poison pill. In order to not be tracked you must consent to be tracked so we know you don't want to be tracked. This should not be done or allowed. Period. It's a huge invasion of privacy.
- 6y ago
- neolog 6y agoIs it practical to put a Faraday mesh into the exterior walls of a house?
- transpute 6y agoAttic insulation ("radiant barrier") has a layer of aluminum, it can reduce EMF if joints overlap and are sealed with aluminum tape.
- XorNot 6y agoYou also need to ground it (you should be doing this anyway for electrical safety).
- farrelmahaztra 6y agoIn addition to that, you might want/need to use only wired connections to your router and rip out any components that enable wireless.
- FridayoLeary 6y agoWith 2 conditions; a) you would have to do it before closing up the walls and b) give up on radio.
- lstamour 6y agoAlso, expect to have very strange windows. Of course, if visible light can pass through, that might be considered a flaw in your faraday cage so YMMV. Personally, I'd like it if my devices knew what room I was in. Back in 2013, I'd started working on a home automation project with that goal in mind, but then all these closed source devices came out that were incredibly cheap and convenient and I haven't revisited the idea since. I do look back with a bit of regret that more hasn't been done to push for reverse engineering these devices or somehow encouraging companies to open source their routers to support third-party operating systems, etc. We take for granted that we've open source smartphones and standard PC specifications when we don't yet have a standard that could let me run YouTube TV on my Echo Show 8, for example, or add lossless FLAC playback to my smart speaker...
- disabled 6y agoA lot of this work has been research of Dina Katabi at MIT, via a function called the Sparse Fourier ("4-E-A") Transform. I am not excusing the privacy implications, which will be abused to the extreme. However, it will be used also for health reasons, like monitoring respiration, and activity.
- transpute 6y agoFrom https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Katabi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dina_Katabi > her work on X-ray vision was chosen as one of the "50 ways that MIT has transformed computer science." And the housing market.
- peanutz454 6y agoSorry I am not sure I am following, how does this impact housing market?
- wayvey 6y agoPossibly some future demand for faraday-caged homes?
- 4gotunameagain 6y agoFaraday cages do not stop Xrays, the wavelength can be smaller than the atomic spacing of metals.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- eternalban 6y agoSimple and Practical Algorithm for Sparse Fourier Transform, Hassanieh, Indyk, Katabi, Price (2012) https://groups.csail.mit.edu/netmit/sFFT/soda_paper.pdf https://groups.csail.mit.edu/netmit/sFFT/soda_paper.pdf The sparse fourier transform : theory & practice - Haitham Al-Hassanieh (thesis, 2016 MIT) - Dina Katabi (thesis advisor) https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/103715 https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/103715
- andrepd 6y agoWhat the actual fuck?? Honestly I don't see any purely technical solution to this. At some point we have to demand that laws be written to outlaw this.
- wyager 6y agoOr just don’t install these devices in your house/live in a place where privacy is functionally impossible like an apartment building.
- NoPicklez 6y agoIf the standard is built into all future WiFi standards you might have no choice in having to install those devices. If you want to obtain the fastest speeds/range/features etc.
- rodneyhayes 6y agoSeems like someone can just pull up anywhere in a car and have this capability. You probably won’t have a choice.
- SilverRed 6y agoAnd if someone stands out side with a wifi device emitting a signal in to your house?
- lpasselin 6y agoCheck this out https://youtu.be/FDZ39h-kCS8 https://youtu.be/FDZ39h-kCS8
- KETpXDDzR 6y agoI see a market for personal WiFi jamming devices.
- elric 6y agoThose are illegal (at least in the US, and likely just about everywhere). Which is bitterly ironic in this case ... spying on people inside their homes using WiFi is "fine", but trying to jam that bullshit is ... illegal.
- jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 6y agoIllegal? Why? I'm only heavily using all the WiFi channels with my perfectly legitimate web browsing.
- ortusdux 6y agoJamming would run afoul of the FCC. Now having one or more WAPs randomly modulate their signal strength should do the trick
- passerby1 6y agoDo I understand it correct that it's possible to 'sense' what people speak with this technique?
- jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 6y agoNo, that would require a precision that's probably still decades away. It could be used to grossly place people and large objects, and notice their movement. Sensing voice would require to monitor vibrations in either the person speaking or anything that vibrates with the emitted sound. Funnily, there are much easier ways to do that, although they require direct line of vision [1]. Another option would be to measure the vibrations on walls (think glass on the wall, but hitech). [1] https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/06/eavesdropping_o_9.html https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2020/06/eavesdropping...
- mushufasa 6y agowasn't this a scene in Batman, Dark Night? yes, yes it was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRELLH86Edo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRELLH86Edo
- xanth 6y agoAnyone aware of a polished application that utilizes this for personal home monitoring? It'd be fantastic to integrate this with Home Assistant[1] in lieu of Zigbee motion sensors. [1] https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/
- BatteryMountain 6y agoNow imagine what will be accomplished with 5G.. puts on tinfoil hat.
- matheusmoreira 6y agoIs there no limit to this surveillance capitalism thing? At what point does it get dystopian enough for them to stop?
- acomar 6y agowhen capitalism ends.
- jesusjosephsson 6y agoWould it be possible to use this to look at a monitor?
- EricE 6y agoI need to invent faraday cage paint :p
- trompetenaccoun 6y agohttps://www.businessinsider.com/a-san-francisco-apartment-that-blocks-cell-phone-radiation-is-up-for-grabs-for-86-million-2015-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/a-san-francisco-apartment-th... Instead of going to such extreme lengths though, it's more sensible to lobby for political change. There is absolutely no legitimate reason this should be introduced as a general standard for all wifi divices. This sort of spying needs to be illegal unless specifically approved in limited cases.