5 ms·

The New York Times criticizes dark patterns, but fails to criticize themselves

The New York Times published an article that criticizes dark patterns. They call out several companies that uses dark patterns, but fail to mention how hard it is to unsubscribe to the New York Times (only by talking to a person). That's unfair. It's ok for the NYT to write an article about it. I'm sure the reporter is not responsible for NYT's unsubscribe flow. But if you call-out other companies, have the decency to mention your own company. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/opinion/dark-pattern-internet-ecommerce-regulation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/opinion/dark-pattern-inte...

zepto 5y ago
This is the irony of the NYT, it is like this in pretty much every respect.
Bootstrapper909 5y ago
Another comment: The article mention big "sign up" banners as a dark patterns. I don't think it is. a dark pattern is either (i) getting the user to do something they don't intent to do, or (ii) preventing the user from doing something. A big sign up banner might be poor/aggressive design, but as long as users choose to click on it, it's not a dark pattern
bourgwaletariat 5y ago
Rules for thee, but not for me. The New York Times lied us into the Iraq War. They are a consent factory. We keep assuming someone is immune to the human condition because of their title. Journalists are human beings. They want to eat, drink and have a roof like all the other humans. Doctors. Scientists. Politicians. We are all humans. We are all subject to the same laws of nature. The NY Times is corrupted by the same laws of nature as medicine, science and politicians. We are broken. We have to accept that before we can fix us.
- bmeski 5y ago
  No, it's the patriarchal structures that are broken, I'm perfect. /s
dang 5y ago
My first reaction was - wait, that's just an opinion piece - you can't draw strong conclusions from that. However, the author's byline says "member of the editorial board". So you have a point. And I'm sure nearly all of us agree with you about the NYT unsubscribe. But there's not enough information here for a substantive discussion [1]. It's just going to be a generic thread, and we try to avoid those [2]. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20discussion%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
- nabla9 5y ago
  Editorial board is not charge of the business of the newspaper. They are only in charge of editorial policy. The board doesn’t even speak for the newsroom. NYT has huge institutional wall between editorial decisions and the business to keep them separate. Here are the people running the company: https://www.nytco.com/company/people/ https://www.nytco.com/company/people/
  - coliveira 5y ago
    But you don't need to be making decisions to see what is going on in the business of you own newspaper. They just had to do the most trivial research to see problems in their own organization. They just decided not to do it.
    - nabla9 5y ago
      I was countering the point made in comment I was responding. I contributed facts to the discussion. You make a different point. You should not make it by responding to me.
    - 52-6F-62 5y ago
      No. One writer wrote an opinion article. No sane daily (or 24/7) editorial board will dictate the minutiae of an article like that. • Is it factual? Check. • Is the grammar correct (often enough according to a sleep-deprived junior or production editor)? Check. • Confirmed the article reads like a relatively sane person writing something relatively thoughtful and hopefully isn't cleverly disguised Nazi nonsense or the like? Check. • Fits the general tone of the paper? Check. Approved. It's not the business of an editor to repeat the entire process of R&D and writing an article just to confirm they've covered every fact. Most of their staff probably doesn't even subscribe to the paper. The writers attentions will not be fixed on how that process works, it's just a job. Instead of lambasting an entire industry, or news organization and editorial processes, why don't you write the writer and ask them why the excluded it? Or write the editorial board? They read letters, and they respond to them. Sometimes they also correct and amend articles based on those letters. So why not get active about a problem rather than slandering them in forums? So many of the qualms I see are based on misunderstanding both the purpose and function of publisher's like the NYT and the purpose and influence editorial process especially. The parent to your comment was correct, in spite of their comment being downvoted. The solution isn't to try and sully their reputation by spreading vitriol—it's to engage in the discussion.
freshair 5y ago
Suppose I am an alcoholic drinking myself to death, and my friend is as well. I tell my friend that he should stop drinking. That would make me a hypocrite, but it wouldn't make me wrong. Pointing out hypocrisy to 'dunk on' people is rarely a persuasive rebuttal.
- amelius 5y ago
  A better analogy would be if you told the world that your friend should stop drinking.
  - freshair 5y ago
    In this analogy I am still a hypocrite but I'm still dead-right, so sure.
- SilasX 5y ago
  I disagree. Hypocrisy allegations are expressing an important insight: "Obviously, moralizing about X isn't helpful because you know it's wrong, and you still do it", and further, "maybe you should use your special position as someone tempted to X to provide insight on what would stop you". In your example, you're drinking yourself to death despite knowing it's stupid, and probably despite others telling you not to. Why would you think lecturing your friend helps? Your reaction should be, "hey, what would stop me from drinking? Maybe I should try that and propose it for my friend too?" In the NYT example, they should know why they're using the dark patterns, and what would get them to stop, and should be proposing that.
ChrisArchitect 5y ago
instead of posting your comments as an item, post the article and then comment! what
- dang 5y ago
  Yup, it's generally bad to use text posts to add commentary on a link. In fact HN has always disallowed this. From the FAQ (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html): How do I make a link in a text submission? You can't. This is to prevent people from submitting a link with their comments in a privileged position at the top of the page. If you want to submit a link with comments, just submit it, then add a regular comment. The same issue comes up with titles. I tell people all the time: if you want to say what you think is important about an article, that's fine, but do it by adding a comment to the thread. Then your view will be on a level playing field with everyone else's: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22level%20playing%20field%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... In this case, though, I made an exception because the post isn't recommending the article the way submissions usually do, but rather the opposite. It seems a bit unfair to make it link to it in the standard way. Don't worry, it's not going to become a pattern (dark or otherwise).
52-6F-62 5y ago
It's one opinion article. The New York Times does self-report and self-criticize. And to be clear: the NYT did not write the article. One writer wrote about it. Single opinion articles are not representative of the sum of their publisher. And thank god for that... That said, their unsubscribe process (and some of the stories) is the only thing preventing me from subscribing. I would subscribe if it were easier to cancel or pause the subscription. I wish they'd get that sorted, especially since they killed their Apple News contract. That applies anywhere though: if I can subscribe with a click or two, the unsubscribe process should follow the same pattern.
coliveira 5y ago
It is an old tradition of newspapers to point the finger at others when your side is doing the same or worse. They still have the hubris to call it journalism.
Symbiote 5y ago
Did anyone write to the NYT about this? "Letters to the editor" seems a more useful place for feedback than this, or the previous blog post. (I can't check, I'm not a subscriber.)

zepto 5y ago

This is the irony of the NYT, it is like this in pretty much every respect.

Bootstrapper909 5y ago

Another comment: The article mention big "sign up" banners as a dark patterns. I don't think it is. a dark pattern is either (i) getting the user to do something they don't intent to do, or (ii) preventing the user from doing something. A big sign up banner might be poor/aggressive design, but as long as users choose to click on it, it's not a dark pattern

bourgwaletariat 5y ago

Rules for thee, but not for me. The New York Times lied us into the Iraq War. They are a consent factory. We keep assuming someone is immune to the human condition because of their title. Journalists are human beings. They want to eat, drink and have a roof like all the other humans. Doctors. Scientists. Politicians. We are all humans. We are all subject to the same laws of nature. The NY Times is corrupted by the same laws of nature as medicine, science and politicians. We are broken. We have to accept that before we can fix us.

bmeski 5y ago
No, it's the patriarchal structures that are broken, I'm perfect. /s

dang 5y ago

My first reaction was - wait, that's just an opinion piece - you can't draw strong conclusions from that. However, the author's byline says "member of the editorial board". So you have a point. And I'm sure nearly all of us agree with you about the NYT unsubscribe. But there's not enough information here for a substantive discussion [1]. It's just going to be a generic thread, and we try to avoid those [2]. [1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22significant%20new%20information%22%20by%3Adang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... [2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=generic%20discussion%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

nabla9 5y ago
Editorial board is not charge of the business of the newspaper. They are only in charge of editorial policy. The board doesn’t even speak for the newsroom. NYT has huge institutional wall between editorial decisions and the business to keep them separate. Here are the people running the company: https://www.nytco.com/company/people/ https://www.nytco.com/company/people/
- coliveira 5y ago
  But you don't need to be making decisions to see what is going on in the business of you own newspaper. They just had to do the most trivial research to see problems in their own organization. They just decided not to do it.
  - nabla9 5y ago
    I was countering the point made in comment I was responding. I contributed facts to the discussion. You make a different point. You should not make it by responding to me.
  - 52-6F-62 5y ago
    No. One writer wrote an opinion article. No sane daily (or 24/7) editorial board will dictate the minutiae of an article like that. • Is it factual? Check. • Is the grammar correct (often enough according to a sleep-deprived junior or production editor)? Check. • Confirmed the article reads like a relatively sane person writing something relatively thoughtful and hopefully isn't cleverly disguised Nazi nonsense or the like? Check. • Fits the general tone of the paper? Check. Approved. It's not the business of an editor to repeat the entire process of R&D and writing an article just to confirm they've covered every fact. Most of their staff probably doesn't even subscribe to the paper. The writers attentions will not be fixed on how that process works, it's just a job. Instead of lambasting an entire industry, or news organization and editorial processes, why don't you write the writer and ask them why the excluded it? Or write the editorial board? They read letters, and they respond to them. Sometimes they also correct and amend articles based on those letters. So why not get active about a problem rather than slandering them in forums? So many of the qualms I see are based on misunderstanding both the purpose and function of publisher's like the NYT and the purpose and influence editorial process especially. The parent to your comment was correct, in spite of their comment being downvoted. The solution isn't to try and sully their reputation by spreading vitriol—it's to engage in the discussion.

freshair 5y ago

Suppose I am an alcoholic drinking myself to death, and my friend is as well. I tell my friend that he should stop drinking. That would make me a hypocrite, but it wouldn't make me wrong. Pointing out hypocrisy to 'dunk on' people is rarely a persuasive rebuttal.

amelius 5y ago
A better analogy would be if you told the world that your friend should stop drinking.
- freshair 5y ago
  In this analogy I am still a hypocrite but I'm still dead-right, so sure.
SilasX 5y ago
I disagree. Hypocrisy allegations are expressing an important insight: "Obviously, moralizing about X isn't helpful because you know it's wrong, and you still do it", and further, "maybe you should use your special position as someone tempted to X to provide insight on what would stop you". In your example, you're drinking yourself to death despite knowing it's stupid, and probably despite others telling you not to. Why would you think lecturing your friend helps? Your reaction should be, "hey, what would stop me from drinking? Maybe I should try that and propose it for my friend too?" In the NYT example, they should know why they're using the dark patterns, and what would get them to stop, and should be proposing that.

ChrisArchitect 5y ago

instead of posting your comments as an item, post the article and then comment! what

dang 5y ago
Yup, it's generally bad to use text posts to add commentary on a link. In fact HN has always disallowed this. From the FAQ (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html): How do I make a link in a text submission? You can't. This is to prevent people from submitting a link with their comments in a privileged position at the top of the page. If you want to submit a link with comments, just submit it, then add a regular comment. The same issue comes up with titles. I tell people all the time: if you want to say what you think is important about an article, that's fine, but do it by adding a comment to the thread. Then your view will be on a level playing field with everyone else's: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=%22level%20playing%20field%22%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so... In this case, though, I made an exception because the post isn't recommending the article the way submissions usually do, but rather the opposite. It seems a bit unfair to make it link to it in the standard way. Don't worry, it's not going to become a pattern (dark or otherwise).

52-6F-62 5y ago

It's one opinion article. The New York Times does self-report and self-criticize. And to be clear: the NYT did not write the article. One writer wrote about it. Single opinion articles are not representative of the sum of their publisher. And thank god for that... That said, their unsubscribe process (and some of the stories) is the only thing preventing me from subscribing. I would subscribe if it were easier to cancel or pause the subscription. I wish they'd get that sorted, especially since they killed their Apple News contract. That applies anywhere though: if I can subscribe with a click or two, the unsubscribe process should follow the same pattern.

coliveira 5y ago

It is an old tradition of newspapers to point the finger at others when your side is doing the same or worse. They still have the hubris to call it journalism.

Symbiote 5y ago

Did anyone write to the NYT about this? "Letters to the editor" seems a more useful place for feedback than this, or the previous blog post. (I can't check, I'm not a subscriber.)