8 ms·

Hackers who shut down pipeline: We don’t want to cause “problems for society”

39 points by nataz 5y ago

ed25519FUUU 5y ago
Earlier this year we decided to invest in solar and a battery. It was an expensive decision, especially given that our state has very low energy prices, but I firmly believe these types of things will be the norm in the future, not the exception. It’s a beautiful feeling know that even without the grid, I can run my pump, grow my food, and keep my freezers cold.
- tremon 5y ago
  How much did that installation cost you, if I may ask? I know the price of (residential) solar panels around here (roughly € 1k-3k, depending on size and quality), but have no idea what the battery costs would be.
  - katmannthree 5y ago
    Depends on your usage and how long you want the batteries to last, generally anywhere from ~5k USD for a day's worth of backup power (using average-ish USA residential consumption, adjust accordingly) to 75k USD for a week (assuming you're using quality LiFePO4 cells with a good BMS).
  - ed25519FUUU 5y ago
    I bought a sol-ark inverter so I could DIY the battery. The inverter can be both a bms and charge controller so it saves on additional hardware. I can hook LFP up to it (current system) or in the winter use flooded lead acid. The goal was a minimum battery necessary to use the solar power during the day (solar systems typically need a battery in order to produce power without the grid)
  - Loughla 5y ago
    We just had solar and battery backup bank quoted for our home (November/December 2020). For enough power to run the fridge, freezer, AC intermittently, and charge/power for electronics (1 laptop, 2 phones), the cost of batteries for up to 1 week's supply was ~65k USD. We simply could not afford that. (subsequently, the solar to offset our ~200/mo power bill was ~65k on its own. Just outrageously expensive).
    - ed25519FUUU 5y ago
      You need more quotes. Though with a $200 month bill the payoff should be quick. It takes a lot of amps for that equipment and not a lot of “off the shelf” inverters will support those types of batteries. If all you want is to keep your freezers running during an extended outage (Texas situation) consider the Sunny Boy inverters by SMA. Each one has a 2 kWh outlet that can be used without a battery or the grid. Your freezers will run during the day while there’s solar, at night leave them closed.
      - jononor 5y ago
        > Though with a $200 month bill the payoff should be quick For a 65k expense, and 200 a month saving, that is like 27 years to break-even? How do you get it to be "quick"?
        ed25519FUUU 5y ago
        To clarify, I'm recommending you skip the battery and use something like a Sunny Boy w/ 2 kWh convenience plug. Depending on your electricity costs and whether or not your utility supports net metering, you should be able to build a system at a fraction of that cost ($20k before federal credits) to generate your power.
    - quickthrowman 5y ago
      You could buy a Generac generator (either NG or diesel) and have a contractor install it for about a tenth of that price. With diesel, you could have a storage tank, NG you’d be relying on the utility to maintain service (don’t do this in TX for obvious reasons). A 120/240 genset that puts out 100A should easily power a fridge, freezer, 15A outlet, and a/c compressor/furnace fan. Hell, for $65k you could buy a brand new F150 with the 7.2kW generator onboard and install a manual transfer switch and emergency panelboard, and then manually cutover the power yourself by running the truck and flipping the transfer switch. Doesn’t help with a lack of gasoline though.
throwawaymanbot 5y ago
Translation: we know we done messed up … but only since we feel the feds breath on us. As we will feel their breath on us until we are brought to justice.
Chris2048 5y ago
So, hackers remotely infiltrated Colonial Pipeline systems. The hackers are irrelevant, this is 100% a security issue that is CPs fault. These private infra systems should be easy to secure, an the funding implication of being a National Security issue make it easier.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  I agree we need to do more to secure critical infrastructure. But this comment is victim blaming.
  - tbihl 5y ago
    The world is complex sometimes. We can both be at fault and be a victim of unfortunate circumstances when bad things happen.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    Who's "we"? CP need to do more, and the government/society/we need to ensure they do it. If I leave $50 dollars lying in the road and someone takes it, I am indeed a victim, and I am indeed blame-worthy. CP isn't the only victim of its own incompetence, and it bears a duty (and probably benefitted from the funding) of protecting us all from this harm.
    - edmundsauto 5y ago
      We are exactly who you said: CP, other companies, governments, and society. We all bear the responsibility to set a culture where we value the right things. Your analogy is flawed because CP didn't leave $50 lying in the road. They left $50 in their home with the door unlocked. Would you blame someone for having money stolen off their dining room table?
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        They were hacked remotely, no one entered their home.
hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
If the President of the United States had just vowed to "disrupt and prosecute" my extortion ring, I would be pretty contrite too.
- jseliger 5y ago
  That was my thought, too: they suddenly went from (relatively) petty crime that would be hard for most American police forces to find and prosecute to "target of a nation state:" a tremendous difference.
  - aerostable_slug 5y ago
    They're also smart to avoid stirring up public sympathy. Taking California as an example, relatively few would feel sorry for PG&E shareholders if they were hit by ransomware (but no infrastructure was disrupted). Same with someone like Chevron, or Facebook for that matter. Take down a children's hospital OTOH, and you might have citizens beating down the doors of their representatives demanding justice.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
threatofrain 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27117515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27117515
ilaksh 5y ago
I think it's a military issue, so get all military and other intelligence agencies on the project of finding and locking up criminals like this. Life in prison without parole.
- Rapzid 5y ago
  It's a good opportunity to run a live active threat "drill" on them. All agency hands on deck, threat to the USA, find them and shut them down. Training Day.

39 points by nataz 5y ago

Earlier this year we decided to invest in solar and a battery. It was an expensive decision, especially given that our state has very low energy prices, but I firmly believe these types of things will be the norm in the future, not the exception. It’s a beautiful feeling know that even without the grid, I can run my pump, grow my food, and keep my freezers cold.

tremon 5y ago
How much did that installation cost you, if I may ask? I know the price of (residential) solar panels around here (roughly € 1k-3k, depending on size and quality), but have no idea what the battery costs would be.
- katmannthree 5y ago
  Depends on your usage and how long you want the batteries to last, generally anywhere from ~5k USD for a day's worth of backup power (using average-ish USA residential consumption, adjust accordingly) to 75k USD for a week (assuming you're using quality LiFePO4 cells with a good BMS).
- ed25519FUUU 5y ago
  I bought a sol-ark inverter so I could DIY the battery. The inverter can be both a bms and charge controller so it saves on additional hardware. I can hook LFP up to it (current system) or in the winter use flooded lead acid. The goal was a minimum battery necessary to use the solar power during the day (solar systems typically need a battery in order to produce power without the grid)
- Loughla 5y ago
  We just had solar and battery backup bank quoted for our home (November/December 2020). For enough power to run the fridge, freezer, AC intermittently, and charge/power for electronics (1 laptop, 2 phones), the cost of batteries for up to 1 week's supply was ~65k USD. We simply could not afford that. (subsequently, the solar to offset our ~200/mo power bill was ~65k on its own. Just outrageously expensive).
  - ed25519FUUU 5y ago
    You need more quotes. Though with a $200 month bill the payoff should be quick. It takes a lot of amps for that equipment and not a lot of “off the shelf” inverters will support those types of batteries. If all you want is to keep your freezers running during an extended outage (Texas situation) consider the Sunny Boy inverters by SMA. Each one has a 2 kWh outlet that can be used without a battery or the grid. Your freezers will run during the day while there’s solar, at night leave them closed.
    - jononor 5y ago
      > Though with a $200 month bill the payoff should be quick For a 65k expense, and 200 a month saving, that is like 27 years to break-even? How do you get it to be "quick"?
      - ed25519FUUU 5y ago
        To clarify, I'm recommending you skip the battery and use something like a Sunny Boy w/ 2 kWh convenience plug. Depending on your electricity costs and whether or not your utility supports net metering, you should be able to build a system at a fraction of that cost ($20k before federal credits) to generate your power.
  - quickthrowman 5y ago
    You could buy a Generac generator (either NG or diesel) and have a contractor install it for about a tenth of that price. With diesel, you could have a storage tank, NG you’d be relying on the utility to maintain service (don’t do this in TX for obvious reasons). A 120/240 genset that puts out 100A should easily power a fridge, freezer, 15A outlet, and a/c compressor/furnace fan. Hell, for $65k you could buy a brand new F150 with the 7.2kW generator onboard and install a manual transfer switch and emergency panelboard, and then manually cutover the power yourself by running the truck and flipping the transfer switch. Doesn’t help with a lack of gasoline though.

throwawaymanbot 5y ago

Translation: we know we done messed up … but only since we feel the feds breath on us. As we will feel their breath on us until we are brought to justice.

Chris2048 5y ago

So, hackers remotely infiltrated Colonial Pipeline systems. The hackers are irrelevant, this is 100% a security issue that is CPs fault. These private infra systems should be easy to secure, an the funding implication of being a National Security issue make it easier.

edmundsauto 5y ago
I agree we need to do more to secure critical infrastructure. But this comment is victim blaming.
- tbihl 5y ago
  The world is complex sometimes. We can both be at fault and be a victim of unfortunate circumstances when bad things happen.
- Chris2048 5y ago
  Who's "we"? CP need to do more, and the government/society/we need to ensure they do it. If I leave $50 dollars lying in the road and someone takes it, I am indeed a victim, and I am indeed blame-worthy. CP isn't the only victim of its own incompetence, and it bears a duty (and probably benefitted from the funding) of protecting us all from this harm.
  - edmundsauto 5y ago
    We are exactly who you said: CP, other companies, governments, and society. We all bear the responsibility to set a culture where we value the right things. Your analogy is flawed because CP didn't leave $50 lying in the road. They left $50 in their home with the door unlocked. Would you blame someone for having money stolen off their dining room table?
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      They were hacked remotely, no one entered their home.

hoppyhoppy2 5y ago

If the President of the United States had just vowed to "disrupt and prosecute" my extortion ring, I would be pretty contrite too.

jseliger 5y ago
That was my thought, too: they suddenly went from (relatively) petty crime that would be hard for most American police forces to find and prosecute to "target of a nation state:" a tremendous difference.
- aerostable_slug 5y ago
  They're also smart to avoid stirring up public sympathy. Taking California as an example, relatively few would feel sorry for PG&E shareholders if they were hit by ransomware (but no infrastructure was disrupted). Same with someone like Chevron, or Facebook for that matter. Take down a children's hospital OTOH, and you might have citizens beating down the doors of their representatives demanding justice.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

threatofrain 5y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27117515 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27117515

ilaksh 5y ago

I think it's a military issue, so get all military and other intelligence agencies on the project of finding and locking up criminals like this. Life in prison without parole.

Rapzid 5y ago
It's a good opportunity to run a live active threat "drill" on them. All agency hands on deck, threat to the USA, find them and shut them down. Training Day.