7 ms·
Arguments like this make me suspicious. Essentially, we've got no way of knowing how much Lady Ranelagh would have achieved if... so that leaves us free to spec
by dash2 5y ago
Arguments like this make me suspicious. Essentially, we've got no way of knowing how much Lady Ranelagh would have achieved if... so that leaves us free to speculate about how she was an unknown genius. There's an infinite supply of these figures for feminist academics to make hay with. Meanwhile, how many people can name an achievement of Robert Boyle, who actually was the greatest English scientist before Newton?
Maybe I'm wrong, and if I read the book I'd find convincing proof that she was a brilliant mind who could have made great discoveries. What's in the article doesn't seem much: she tested a cure for rickets, paid for her brother's lab, and wrote down somebody's experiment.
- DyslexicAtheist 5y agoas a man, how insecure does one have to be to take offense at a book that celebrates the achievement of a woman, and to question the accuracy of it without having actually read it?
- okamiueru 5y agoSeems a bit of a straw man no? I don't see how the parent comment expressed having taken offense, nor particular insecurity, and surely not enough to infer their gender, or any such grounds for "motives". The comment you are responding to also explicitly points out the basis being just the article in question, and being open to the possibility of a better argument posed in the book. So, I honestly do not see the issue here. edit: As is evident from the response they got, the book seems to give better insights, which must be a win for everyone?
- DyslexicAtheist 5y agostraw man? No there is a dead giveaway right here: > "There's an infinite supply of these figures for feminist academics to make hay with." He devalues the content of the article by labeling the author as "feminist academics"? Not just saying "researchers" or "academics" - he needed to point out that it was a woman with a feminist agenda. But the fact that this is the top comment and gets defended (instead of flagged for the misogyny it is) says enough.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- okamiueru 5y agoI'll readily admit that English is not my first language, so there might undertones in that quote I'm unaware of. I also agree that the use of "feminist academics" was unnecessary, but mostly for not making a greater effort at "avoiding unrelated controversies" as per guidelines [1]. I might glossed over some detail there, and instead gave the original poster the benefit of the doubt, and assumed that the meaning was as following: - Unknown female geniuses lost to history due to gender inequality are many - The article itself does not make a good argument of why Ranelagh in particular might be a good example. The bar should be higher. - Maybe the book gives a better argument As mentioned, I might have gotten the first one wrong, though I did not, as you put it, defend it. Disagreements are appreciated. Instead, I believed you created an argument, which was based on a lot of assumptions (gender, motive, misogyny, etc, hence "straw man") and went much, much further in the opposite of "avoiding unrelated controversies". --- https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- Cyril_HN 5y agoI agree that that is an interpretation worth considering if Parent Commenter has provided corroborating evidence. A charitable interpretation would suggest that this man has seen many arguments about the ostensible brilliance of some otherwise unknown or lesser-known person and that such people make for good propaganda (I use the word propaganda without trying to imply that this piece is propaganda, just to be very clear). A charitable interpretation would also admit there is no necessary malice in saying describing someone as a feminist academic. Feminist academics are, approximately, a class of academic and they do have idiosyncrasies, views, and methods unique to them. It is not an insult to say something is from feminist academia and feminist academia itself would like to admit that that is the standpoint from which it is arguing. There are many women who have failed to get the recognition they deserve. In fact, there are many people who have, full stop. There is also a market for upselling historical figures. Saying someone or something is underrated and then making a compelling case for it is incredibly difficult, man, woman, art, or whatever.
- 5y ago
- watwut 5y agoIt is not win. It is simply assuming and claiming she is getting unfair credit without bothering to look at the case -- on the basis of her gender. The comment did not asked for tldr, the comment literally made claims about her lack of achievements. Admitting that you did not checked it and being theoretically open to change if you would bothered does not change all that much. Plus, this is just how bias works. In assumptions claim when you don't check evidence.
- qsort 5y agoHaving bias but being open to change one's mind is a correct application of the Bayes' theorem, isn't it? (I agree the root comment was a bit... weird, let's put it that way, but the author themselves acknowledged that)
- watwut 5y agoI mean ... who cares. Having bias, then calling it as win or acting like no one is allowed to point out it is bias is not correct application of the Bayes' theorem. I did not flagged the comment nor downvoted it. I responded to claim that it was win. Which responded to claim that the comment took offense.
- dash2 5y agoI laid out why I thought this book might be overclaiming for the status of its subject. I said "I might be wrong", and then gave evidence from the fact that the achievements mentioned in the review don't seem huge. This is a "dog didn't bark in the night" argument: if Lady R had amazing achievements, the review would have mentioned them. But again, maybe I'm wrong! Feel free to read the book, or other sources, and rebut me with evidence. I'll happily hold my hands up. That would be a much more effective argument than accusing me of bias.
- kofddfjdfdfdff 5y agoBecause such books have an agenda behind them, unfortunately.
- dang 5y agoPlease don't break the site guidelines like this. It helps nothing. It just takes the thread further into flamewar and makes everything worse. Thoughtful critique is welcome of course. It's cheap flamewar rhetoric that we don't want here. If you feel that another comment is a shallow dismissal, a substantive reply showing how that is the case can be quite helpful. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- sohkamyung 5y agoThis from the book's description [1] implies that she did much more that that. > Philosophers, mathematicians, politicians, and religious authorities sought her opinion on everything from decimalizing the currency to producing Hebrew grammars. She practiced medicine alongside distinguished male physicians, treating some of the most elite patients in London. Her medical recipes, political commentaries, and testimony concerning the philosophers’ stone gained international circulation. She was an important influence on Boyle and a formidable thinker in her own right. [1] https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/L/bo59259887.html https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/L/bo592598...
- kofddfjdfdfdff 5y agoSo she was popular and so - that probably was true for many, many people throughout history. Not saying she wasn't a formidable thinker, but many people were and are. Only a few become famous because their inventions have long lasting effects.
- zozbot234 5y ago> So she was popular and so - that probably was true for many, many people throughout history. The weird thing is that she seems to have been popular, yet she isn't mentioned (so far as I can tell) in the main sources of pre-20th c. biography (e.g. the DNB). Uncovering such minor but influential figures that hadn't yet been comprehensively described has always been a main interest of historians and antiquarians, so I think this author's work can be described as a very real accomplishment.
- kofddfjdfdfdff 5y agoEven describing the lives of normal people would be interesting. The problem is that "feminist scholarship" carries a very real risk of history revisionism.
- dash2 5y agoI think this is a much better argument than all the overheated comments about how I'm a misogynist pig. But still. Here's a comparison. This person: * Discussed refraction with the brilliant philosopher Thomas Hobbes * Computed the first table of antilogarithms * Wrote manuscripts on the circulation of the blood - and may have anticipated Harvey * Also wrote on psychology, and the size of the universe * Conducted some of the first experimental research on medicine This is Walter Warner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Warner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Warner). Probably way more distinguished than you or I will ever be, but not quite an unknown genius - just the first name I saw on the Wikipedia list of 17th century scientists. So, in terms of actual achievements, is this less than Lady Ranelagh? To be clear, I have zero problem with people writing books on unknown female thinkers. I'm sure I'd find this an interesting book! What I think is bad is the overclaiming that sometimes goes along with it - giving inflated importance to historical figures based on what they might have done, if only society had been fairer. I think this comes from two reasons: a sense of historical injustice, and a desire to have historical female role models for scientists today. (OK, and maybe a third, the desire to sell one's book.) But however laudable those reasons are, we should not distort history in their service.
- js8 5y agoI think there is no real way to measure it, but I suspect we would be surprised to see how many smart people is there who just inspire other famous people to do something and are not so much famous themselves. It really depends on your worldview, whether it is more individualist, or collectivist, if you want to count their accomplishments.
- SuoDuanDao 5y agoComplicating the matter there is also a tradition of an invisible college, people who are very active in the intellectual tradition of their time but seek to remain obscure rather than feted for their accomplishments.
- js8 5y agoYes, and with the Internet, and instant communication, this concept can actually become much more pronounced. I think we are yet to realize how much we are intelectually influenced by other random people (in the sense unknown to us, people from which we read or see something on the Internet) today compared to just few decades ago.
- SuoDuanDao 5y agoI know of one very interesting example - I got into my current line of work, which I've been in for the past 7 years, because of one conversation on a message board where I was complaining about the difficulty of finding work and got advice as to a specific place to look. That throwaway comment from a stranger has had an incredibly significant impact on the course my life has taken, something that person will never know. Given the butterfly effect, it seems reasonably likely that the greatest change I'll make to how the future develops will be a similar throwaway comment in a forum like this one.
- chunkyfunky 5y agoI'm not normally one to nitpick but Robert Boyle was Anglo-Irish, not English :)
- heresie-dabord 5y ago> The foundation of the Royal Society of London in 1660 [...] The society did not admit female fellows until 1945. Withholding education from women for centuries was a profoundly stupid social and religious convention that harmed the progress of civilisation.
- vagrantJin 5y agoNow now. Let's not start that ephemeral idea of progress as being tied to peoples genitalia. Men and women (read People) have contributed enormously to said "progress"
- TchoBeer 5y agoYeah, historically men more than women have contributed more to society's intellectual progress because institutions literally didn't let women get an education.
- vagrantJin 5y agoNow now. Calm down. Such broad statements diminish womens contributions to society up to this point. I have 2 problems with your statement. 1) Which women are you talking about specifically? Be clear. Over generalizing is a weak argument. 2) have you considered other factors and situations. Wealth, race, social status etc? Or are genitals of particular intrigue to you? 3) This one is weak but I'll add it anyway. War has been a constant, ever-present threat to all communities. Dont you think that it may have had an impact? Your view in this matter doesn't strike me as well thought out. More like a knee-jerk reaction fueled by some loopy narrative you've read or heard somewhere. Things are rarely black and white.
- throwaway3699 5y ago> Meanwhile, how many people can name an achievement of Robert Boyle, who actually was the greatest English scientist before Newton? Surely Boyle's law is well taught in high schools?
- klelatti 5y agoI searched the article for "genius" and couldn't find it - are we looking at the same piece? "Incomparable" is used in the headline but that was used of her by some of her contemporaries. Seems like you're knocking down a straw man here. For me article simply says that Lady R played an influential role within the constraints that Society imposed on her and maybe deserves to be remembered for that?
- cainxinth 5y agoYour argument makes no sense to me. Article: “We don’t know much about this woman because she was overshadowed by her famous brother.” You: “How do we know she was a great scientist? We don’t even know much about her, but everyone in science knows of her brother!” Yeah... that’s literally what the article is about.
- Grustaf 5y ago> how many people can name an achievement of Robert Boyle Boyle's law, I presume? Having important physical laws named in your honour is a good indication of your level of achievement... But I do agree with your point, contrafactual praise is just not the same.
- bnralt 5y agoReminds me of something I noticed in the discussion about Hedy Lamarr. It's not uncommon to hear people say, "If she was a man, you'd hear about her being a great inventor." But her co-inventor, George Antheil, gets talked about much less , and often only in conjunction with her (search for discussions about either of them on Reddit, Hacker News or the like to see examples of this).
- Kalium 5y agoSometimes I see absurd claims being passed around, such as that Hedy Lamarr invented wifi. It is, perhaps, possible to go to far in rectifying the injustices of history.
- InitialLastName 5y agoI don't take too much offense at that one; frequency hopping is a hard enough thing to explain to a lay-person, but it is an enabling technology for wifi. It's like saying Albert Einstein invented the atom bomb... wrong, but not an absurd misunderstanding.
- Kalium 5y agoI get it as an innocent misunderstanding. Certainly the role of enabling technologies is often underplayed in lay understanding of technological advancements. I'm a bit more skeptical when it's a deliberate misrepresentation. You can claim with equal credibility that Guglielmo Marconi invented wifi.
- InitialLastName 5y agoI guess the moral of the story is that most modern technologies don't lend themselves well to the popular narrative of a solo inventor, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize the contributions of people who had the good ideas that made them possible. None of Charles Babbage, Alan Turing, Claude Shannon or William Shockley really invented the modern computer, but they all helped quite a bit.
- _Nat_ 5y agoThese are weird stories. I was curious what Katherine Jones, Lady Ranelagh, may've been known for, so checked out [their Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Jones,_Viscountess_Ranelagh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katherine_Jones,_Viscountess_R...). The most substantial-looking claim was at the start of the "Science" section: > Jones is known for her genius in medicine. In a letter to her brother, Lord Burlington, she described a friend of hers, Lady Clarendon, having “fits” and how she attended to her even when the doctors had given up on her. Jones used her own concoction and that seemed to be the only thing that helped Lady Clarendon. What "concoction" did they invent? Following the source, there seems to be a [PDF dissertation about them](http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/3146/1/WRAP_THESIS_DiMeo_2009.pdf http://wrap.warwick.ac.uk/3146/1/WRAP_THESIS_DiMeo_2009.pdf), PDF-page 79 (printed-page 67): > Lady Ranelagh’s critique of the doctors’ treatment plan continues in this letter, where she maintains that her Spirit of Hartshorn was the most effective treatment. She then says that the doctors agreed with her (though perhaps somewhat hesitantly) that her remedy was a suitable choice, and she takes the opportunity to suggest it to her brother in his treatment for his own sick wife, telling him where he can find it and recommending the appropriate dose. Appears that the "spirit of hartshorn" Jones was using and advocated would today be known as smelling-salts, basically emitting ammonia that'd wake someone up (if I'm reading the history correctly). It's really weird for Wikipedia to start off by saying that someone was "known for her genius in medicine", after reading a Nature.com page describing them as an "incomparable intellectual", only to then see the first actual example of what they did being use of some smelling-salt.