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> I have never considered education so far. Surely though a B. Eng. Software with first class honors is better than a random science degree.. ?

by grecy 6y ago

Aeolun 6y ago
Maybe? As far as I’ve found there is zero correlation between education and competency, at least in the candidates I’ve interviewed. This is mostly in the Asia/Pacific region though, it might be different elsewhere.
busterarm 6y ago
I'm in a senior position with no degree and the absolute best engineers I have ever worked with almost all have music degrees. Edit: it's also worth noting as an ex-hedgie that in technical roles most of the firms specifically filter for people with musical ability for this reason.
- whatshisface 6y ago
  The best people in any field are the ones that passed the harshest filter, and pole vaulting from music to programming is about as demanding as it gets.
  - busterarm 6y ago
    Not as much as you'd think. Most of them had a specialty in computer music which leans heavily on building your own tools/instruments. But I agree with you.
    - tomduncalf 6y ago
      Some of the best developers I’ve worked (and work) with are from a music background with an interest in computer music also. I guess maybe part of it is that at a certain point in writing music software you really need to be using C++, and audio software in particular is quite unforgiving due to its real-time nature, so you have to learn some fundamentals to write performante code? But I’m sure there’s more to it than just that. I’ve also worked with some really smart people from a physics background.
      - busterarm 6y ago
        Yeah I think that's mostly accurate. I also think that learning signals processing/sampling teaches you an enormous amount of practical, transferrable skill. Similar kinds of problems come up in physics, so for me this tracks.
- FindMySocks 6y ago
  I found electrical engineers to be similar. Computer science degree holders were mostly lacking ability in my experience. But I wouldn't count anyone out by their degree.
- worker767424 6y ago
  How can I make sure the next hedge fund I interview at know I'm a mediocre guitar player? Or is mediocre not worth mentioning?
kenferry 6y ago
Mm, I'm a hiring manager, and I would not really prefer the software degree. Certainly it would quite low in the signals I'd be considering.
rsj_hn 6y ago
It's complicated. IME if I had to guess how well someone would work out and was told only the degree, I would answer: physics/math degree > EE/ME degree > CS degree > humanities degree. This is because in my experience, CS degrees are incredibly popular and a lot of people get them even though they may not be particularly good at programming or even enjoy it. 20 years ago, I'd put the CS degree higher up, but today Universities have lowered standards significantly and are minting lots of CS graduates with dollar signs in their eyes. But that's not how it works because those with only a college degree are (for the most part) not competing for the same set of jobs as those with work experience. They are competing for internships, and when it comes to internships, you are going to hire someone with a CS degree over someone with an EE degree. Therefore you are right, when it comes to internships. When someone has only a degree and no work experience, that's a risky proposition -- those candidates should be routed to internships so both sides can get to know each other without a long term commitment. In all the companies I've ever worked with, we've never hired straight from college without it being an internship. More likely than not, an internship will result in a job offer if it goes well, and IME most do go well. That means that in practice, it's much easier for college graduates to enter the labor market. But they enter via internships that are converted to offers and generate work experience. Then the work experience is all that counts and the degree becomes a checkbox. In other words, your college degree is important, but it's important to open the door to your first real job by getting you an internship. After that, it very rapidly decays in importance. This is because the work experience is so much more informative and relevant than the education. I've never looked at anyone's grades or honors, and it's not uncommon to have a lot of employees without a college degree if they have proven their skills in other ways. This disregard for grades or degree and focus on actual skills is what makes things like dev bootcamps work (for good or ill).
- hnfong 6y ago
  I might be biased since I don’t have a CS degree, but I consider having a degree in the humanities a potentially more positive signal than a typical CS degree. It could indicate that the candidate is able to learn programming and software development on their own, and are interested in the field enough to “switch” careers despite being in an apparent disadvantage. In contrast when you screen resumes you invariably come across people who apparently managed to get a CS degree without learning anything. They won’t be dissuaded from applying to technical positions but if one doesn’t have a CS or related technical degree they probably have some confidence in their own ability. There’s also a factor where some employers simply pass on resumes if the candidate does not meet strict degree requirements. This also increases the average quality of the non-CS degree holder a bit.

> I have never considered education so far. Surely though a B. Eng. Software with first class honors is better than a random science degree.. ?

by grecy 6y ago

> I have never considered education so far. Surely though a B. Eng. Software with first class honors is better than a random science degree.. ?

Aeolun 6y ago

Maybe? As far as I’ve found there is zero correlation between education and competency, at least in the candidates I’ve interviewed. This is mostly in the Asia/Pacific region though, it might be different elsewhere.

busterarm 6y ago

I'm in a senior position with no degree and the absolute best engineers I have ever worked with almost all have music degrees. Edit: it's also worth noting as an ex-hedgie that in technical roles most of the firms specifically filter for people with musical ability for this reason.

whatshisface 6y ago
The best people in any field are the ones that passed the harshest filter, and pole vaulting from music to programming is about as demanding as it gets.
- busterarm 6y ago
  Not as much as you'd think. Most of them had a specialty in computer music which leans heavily on building your own tools/instruments. But I agree with you.
  - tomduncalf 6y ago
    Some of the best developers I’ve worked (and work) with are from a music background with an interest in computer music also. I guess maybe part of it is that at a certain point in writing music software you really need to be using C++, and audio software in particular is quite unforgiving due to its real-time nature, so you have to learn some fundamentals to write performante code? But I’m sure there’s more to it than just that. I’ve also worked with some really smart people from a physics background.
    - busterarm 6y ago
      Yeah I think that's mostly accurate. I also think that learning signals processing/sampling teaches you an enormous amount of practical, transferrable skill. Similar kinds of problems come up in physics, so for me this tracks.
FindMySocks 6y ago
I found electrical engineers to be similar. Computer science degree holders were mostly lacking ability in my experience. But I wouldn't count anyone out by their degree.
worker767424 6y ago
How can I make sure the next hedge fund I interview at know I'm a mediocre guitar player? Or is mediocre not worth mentioning?

kenferry 6y ago

Mm, I'm a hiring manager, and I would not really prefer the software degree. Certainly it would quite low in the signals I'd be considering.

rsj_hn 6y ago

It's complicated. IME if I had to guess how well someone would work out and was told only the degree, I would answer: physics/math degree > EE/ME degree > CS degree > humanities degree. This is because in my experience, CS degrees are incredibly popular and a lot of people get them even though they may not be particularly good at programming or even enjoy it. 20 years ago, I'd put the CS degree higher up, but today Universities have lowered standards significantly and are minting lots of CS graduates with dollar signs in their eyes. But that's not how it works because those with only a college degree are (for the most part) not competing for the same set of jobs as those with work experience. They are competing for internships, and when it comes to internships, you are going to hire someone with a CS degree over someone with an EE degree. Therefore you are right, when it comes to internships. When someone has only a degree and no work experience, that's a risky proposition -- those candidates should be routed to internships so both sides can get to know each other without a long term commitment. In all the companies I've ever worked with, we've never hired straight from college without it being an internship. More likely than not, an internship will result in a job offer if it goes well, and IME most do go well. That means that in practice, it's much easier for college graduates to enter the labor market. But they enter via internships that are converted to offers and generate work experience. Then the work experience is all that counts and the degree becomes a checkbox. In other words, your college degree is important, but it's important to open the door to your first real job by getting you an internship. After that, it very rapidly decays in importance. This is because the work experience is so much more informative and relevant than the education. I've never looked at anyone's grades or honors, and it's not uncommon to have a lot of employees without a college degree if they have proven their skills in other ways. This disregard for grades or degree and focus on actual skills is what makes things like dev bootcamps work (for good or ill).

hnfong 6y ago
I might be biased since I don’t have a CS degree, but I consider having a degree in the humanities a potentially more positive signal than a typical CS degree. It could indicate that the candidate is able to learn programming and software development on their own, and are interested in the field enough to “switch” careers despite being in an apparent disadvantage. In contrast when you screen resumes you invariably come across people who apparently managed to get a CS degree without learning anything. They won’t be dissuaded from applying to technical positions but if one doesn’t have a CS or related technical degree they probably have some confidence in their own ability. There’s also a factor where some employers simply pass on resumes if the candidate does not meet strict degree requirements. This also increases the average quality of the non-CS degree holder a bit.