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I agree, unfortunately there have been so many half truths and misleading articles both online and on legacy media that I find myself not knowing what or who to

I agree, unfortunately there have been so many half truths and misleading articles both online and on legacy media that I find myself not knowing what or who to trust anymore. I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancelation. Five years ago I would not be having these doubts but it seems like everyone has alterior motives. I wish the social media giants would just stop all the censorship and allow the discussions to take place. I appreciate that they are trying to stop disinformation but I just can't think of one time in the past that the ones stifling free speach have ever been on the right side of history.

vmception 5y ago
If you already have an appointment the only debate should be whether you will need an additional third booster shot in the future if the strain in India breaks out and is different enough. The key thing you should notice about the COVID vaccine detractors is their inability to distinguish between vaccines and the wildly different technology between the different vaccines, alongside their inability acknowledge the geopolitical hurdles for any of their conspiracies. If a German-company made vaccine is part of an insidious plot, then should you get the Oxford one developed in the UK? If Bill Gates is influencing vaccines in some strange scheme, does the conclusion mean you should trust the Russian Sputnik vaccine more instead due to the geopolitical impossibility of a Bill Gates plot being involved? The absurdity basically cancels itself out, just get the shot you are offered.
- reedjosh 5y ago
  > acknowledge the geopolitical hurdles Each of those vaccines come from a UN/WHO member country. Geo politically power is wielded by globalist financial elites. These elites generally believe the world is overpopulated. Bill himself is well known for his this belief. Bill as an example runs a charitable foundation that only ever seems to make money. These conspiracies are not constituted of a flat earth and aliens. They are of human hierarchies, corruption, and psychopaths.
  - vmception 5y ago
    Charitable foundations are designed to make money in perpetuity, otherwise their mission is not possible to accomplish. In the US they have to donate 5% of net assets a year and that is practically their only requirement, based on the idea that a diversified portfolio in the broad market increases in value slightly more than 5%. That is not a strong argument to bolster your skepticism. If your idea is based on the existence of psychopathic financiers controlling organizations that every country on the planet is part of, and every vaccine production as well in those countries which use completely different technology, then you have left no oxygen in your mind for disproving anything. You've now exempted China from any scrutiny, in exchange for psychopathic financiers that would have much difficulty in collaborating with the party and maintaining status with them. You've replaced that with an insidious plot that makes zero sense and at the best requires opportunists to simply seize onto the reality. But that makes zero sense because the mRNA vaccines were sequenced within a week of getting samples in January 2020 because the technology is simply impressive and is the lifetime work of the Hungarian researcher. Ah, so many problems with this idea.
  - sigmaprimus 5y ago
    I have a hard time buying into the over population argument, especially in the west. Most western nations have declining populations and although consumption is much higher there is still such a need for continued population growth in western nations that immigration is used to ensure there are enough younger workers to support the wealthier aging populations. Now you want to talk conspiracies to conceal or coverup how the virus came to be, I'm all for that but I don't think billionaires want to kill off all their neighbors just so they can have the earth all to themselves. They enjoy the power and control over people and policy too much for that.
    - Johanx64 5y ago
      >although consumption is much higher there is still such a need for continued population growth in western nations that immigration is used to ensure there are enough younger workers to support the wealthier aging populations It's because social-security/pension systems are a pyramid schemes that can't sustain themselves without ever growing population. I consider many Western EU countries overpopulated (UK, Italy, etc), Google Maps satellite images also do a pretty good job at portraying at just how overpopulated the earth is. Pop growth every decade is still insane.
- sigmaprimus 5y ago
  I live in Canada so it is age based. I'm guessing it will be either Pfizer or Moderna both of which are mRNA which from my understanding is a form of gene therapy. My main concern at the moment is: Just as the virus can mutate during it's replicatative phase and produce variants why can't the spiked protien during it's production or the cells producing it mutate also? If these production cells can mutate or the spiked protiens themselves mutate is it reasonable to assume an autoimmune diseases may result as the cells or protiens accumulate in my organs, limphnodes, fat cells or other areas? This is an honest concern that I am hoping can be resolved, rather than be dismissed or attacked.
  - ianlevesque 5y ago
    https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...
  - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
    The very TLDR response to this is that MRNA is temporary and not self-replicating. Within a few hours of being administered, all the MRNA in the vaccine has been broken down by the body into amino acids. MRNA can't mutate because it doesn't replicate. It just produces proteins.
    - sigmaprimus 5y ago
      Thank You, that is what I needed to hear and it sounds reasonable, what sort of proteins does it produce? Just the spiked ones or longer strands like DNA? Could You also offer up another TL;DR answer as to why the booster seems to present significantly more side effects? Thanks
      - Godel_unicode 5y ago
        DNA is not a protein, DNA is not a type of protein, DNA is not formed from protein. DNA is not formed using instructions from mRNA, nor is it modified by mRNA. DNA is made up of nucleotides, proteins are made up of amino acids. They are chemically different things. As every medical expert has been saying for months now, the vaccine doesn't effect your DNA. The immune response is what causes the side effects, and the immune response is stronger with the second dose (this follows intuitively from immunity being more robust after 2 doses).
- halfjoking 5y ago
  So why is there no traditional vaccine? I trust Sinovac. It's inactive virus vaccine, and they ship raw materials[1] to other countries and say "build it yourself" at manufacturers that have no connection to the Chinese government. Bill Gates on the other hand says these vaccines are too complex and that safety and security issues[2] make it impossible for anyone else to produce these vaccines. The media keep saying "even mRNA vaccines that are new don't enter the nucleus or alter DNA." Guess which could do that? The viral vector vaccines that have custom DNA run in the nucleus, which then produces the mRNA. This MedCram video[3] explains it better than me. Everything around the messaging for vaccines in mainstream media is so misleading if you look at the science. I don't know how someone couldn't be at least a little suspicious. I have longcovid btw, I'm not getting the shot. People repeat BS to me like the vaccines will cure longcovid. They offer no proof whatsoever, no plausible method of action, and go off the media narrative how it "could help some people." I'm on longcovid forums, I trust the anecdotal experiences there than anything in the media. [1] https://en.tempo.co/read/1445856/16-million-sinovac-vaccines-material-arrives-in-indonesia https://en.tempo.co/read/1445856/16-million-sinovac-vaccines... [2] https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/bill-gates-believes-covid-19-vaccine-tech-should-not-be-given-to-india-what-he-said-and-why-he-said-it-1798357-2021-05-03 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/bill-gates-b... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qT7wLxkvU#t=1m30s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qT7wLxkvU#t=1m30s
  - grej 5y ago
    Except that the experience of Chile, and Seychelles in particular is bringing Sinopharm's efficacy into question. I'm very interested in Novavax also but it keeps facing regulatory and production issues. Both I and my wife had the J&J vaccine a couple months ago. We had a period of about 12, maybe 18 hours of feeling like we had a light case of the flu, and fine since. The J&J and AZ vaccines also use your cells produce spike proteins but do it with a different way (adenovirus vector) than the mRNA vaccines.
cycrutchfield 5y ago
>I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancelation. Sorry, what is the downside to getting the vaccine in your mind?
- dnautics 5y ago
  I advocate getting vaccinated (I am myself) but if people don't want to put foreign substances into their bodies, we should respect their choices, especially since the long-term risk profile is unknown (we are pretty sure it's safe, but who can know?)
  - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
    We can. There have been hundreds of millions of doses administered and we are keeping track of the side effects.
    - dnautics 5y ago
      there are some things you can't know without time travel. what happens after having the vaccine for 5 years? 10? The immune system is strange. There are very few mRNA vaccines that have been deployed to date. Can you be sure you aren't, for example, at elevated risk for something like MS? You can't. Again, I say this as someone who made the choice to get the vaccine. The worst thing about conspiracy theories is that some of them are true. If you don't like people being "anti-science", then the one thing you CANNOT do is shove scientifically irresponsible stuff down their throat in the name of expediency.
  - loxias 5y ago
    > we should respect their choices Honestly, why should I do that? I would if their choices only affected themselves. People have a right to control their own destiny. But their choices affect me, and, more importantly, those I care about. So no, I don't respect anyone's "choice" to be an unvaccinated asshole, increasing the chance that people I care about will die. I don't respect the "choice" to aide a foreign microbe in evolving in its ability to hurt me and our species. Why are we thinking of this as some sort of delicate "choice" we need to respect, instead of recognizing it for what it is? Treason.
blacksoil 5y ago
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted...
loxias 5y ago
> I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancellation. Cancellation??!??! WTF? Why? You have a free, safe, live-saving vaccine being offered to you! Why would you not take it?? Putting aside the fact that not being vaccinated is a horrible selfish act that hastens the evolution of a more virulent strain and more death, don't you want to relax a bit after this past year?
- reedjosh 5y ago
  > WTF? Why? You have a free, safe, live-saving vaccine being offered to you! Why would you not take it?? People have real distrust of the system that produced the vaccine and even distrust of the media that purports this disease is so deadly. I know from your perspective scepticism is hard to understand, but it's not that God tells me science is fake or anything so outlandish. I genuinely don't trust the corporations and government selling me the story of the disease and now the vaccine, and it should be allowed that people question these institutions.
  - loxias 5y ago
    > People have real distrust of the system that produced the vaccine and even distrust of the media that purports this disease is so deadly. WHY??? Why do they distrust the vaccine?? Anything? Any possible reason? It's probably the safest vaccine ever made. I. DON'T. GET. IT. Do others not hear the ambulances? Do they not see the overflow from the hospitals? Are the dead bodies some sort of elaborate deep fake?? Has the whole world gone mad??? Brother, I love skepticism. It's healthy. It's *good*. I don't blindly trust corporations or the government, as far as I'm concerned the former only wants profit and the latter only wants power. But that's got nothing to do with it, from my perspective. When your house is on fire you don't debate the motivations of the fire department. You put out the fire first, and THEN have time for dithering and analysis.
    - toast0 5y ago
      > WHY??? Why do they distrust the vaccine?? Anything? Any possible reason? It's probably the safest vaccine ever made. I. DON'T. GET. IT. I'm getting my 2nd shot this week, but both mRNA and modified adenovirus vaccines have never been used for mass vaccinations before. The history of medicine is litered with interventions that were seen as totally safe and wonderful and lead to terrible consequences after some time. Push towards massive adoption of an intervention sets off my alarm bells. All that said, personally, it seems the unknown long term risks of vaccination outweigh the more or less known risks of covid both on an individual level (I don't want to get it) and a community level (I'd rather like community spread to stop, so I can go back to being a hermit by choice); but if community spread wasn't happening near me, I would be happier not trying new medicine within a year of development.
nickthemagicman 5y ago
If you're under 55 and are healthy your chances of dying from this virus are basically non-existent. You'll get a sniffle/fever for a few days and then be immune. Don't put an experimental drug into your body for no reason. Anyone who says variant or strains are a problem has merely to look at over 50% of the United States with no covid restrictions for months who are at record lows of infections and with minimal vaccines. The variant or strain problem is a nothing burger.
- bavent 5y ago
  Tell that to my 30-year-old sister - who still has migraines and extreme fatigue a year after catching covid, who was healthy, an avid runner, and had no preexisting conditions before.
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    ----- 27,000 (ish) people under the age of 55 died of Covid out of 350 million. 0.0007714285% chance of dying from Covid. ------ 32% of 10 million(ish) infections reported 'long covid'. This is 3.2 million. ------ 2% of America are hypochondriacs. That's 6.4 million people. ----- Statistically it's most likely that your sister is a hypochondriac and she needs a psychiatrist. ------ Also, this is what it sounds like when people give anecdotal evidence on the internet. https://youtu.be/xzYO0joolR0 https://youtu.be/xzYO0joolR0 ----- Reference for long Covid statistics: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7392393/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7392393/
  - nickthemagicman 5y ago
    Whatever user flagged my comment. That's B.S. It's nothing but factual statements. You can't just flag a statement because it disagrees with your narrative. Lame.

vmception 5y ago

If you already have an appointment the only debate should be whether you will need an additional third booster shot in the future if the strain in India breaks out and is different enough. The key thing you should notice about the COVID vaccine detractors is their inability to distinguish between vaccines and the wildly different technology between the different vaccines, alongside their inability acknowledge the geopolitical hurdles for any of their conspiracies. If a German-company made vaccine is part of an insidious plot, then should you get the Oxford one developed in the UK? If Bill Gates is influencing vaccines in some strange scheme, does the conclusion mean you should trust the Russian Sputnik vaccine more instead due to the geopolitical impossibility of a Bill Gates plot being involved? The absurdity basically cancels itself out, just get the shot you are offered.

reedjosh 5y ago
> acknowledge the geopolitical hurdles Each of those vaccines come from a UN/WHO member country. Geo politically power is wielded by globalist financial elites. These elites generally believe the world is overpopulated. Bill himself is well known for his this belief. Bill as an example runs a charitable foundation that only ever seems to make money. These conspiracies are not constituted of a flat earth and aliens. They are of human hierarchies, corruption, and psychopaths.
- vmception 5y ago
  Charitable foundations are designed to make money in perpetuity, otherwise their mission is not possible to accomplish. In the US they have to donate 5% of net assets a year and that is practically their only requirement, based on the idea that a diversified portfolio in the broad market increases in value slightly more than 5%. That is not a strong argument to bolster your skepticism. If your idea is based on the existence of psychopathic financiers controlling organizations that every country on the planet is part of, and every vaccine production as well in those countries which use completely different technology, then you have left no oxygen in your mind for disproving anything. You've now exempted China from any scrutiny, in exchange for psychopathic financiers that would have much difficulty in collaborating with the party and maintaining status with them. You've replaced that with an insidious plot that makes zero sense and at the best requires opportunists to simply seize onto the reality. But that makes zero sense because the mRNA vaccines were sequenced within a week of getting samples in January 2020 because the technology is simply impressive and is the lifetime work of the Hungarian researcher. Ah, so many problems with this idea.
- sigmaprimus 5y ago
  I have a hard time buying into the over population argument, especially in the west. Most western nations have declining populations and although consumption is much higher there is still such a need for continued population growth in western nations that immigration is used to ensure there are enough younger workers to support the wealthier aging populations. Now you want to talk conspiracies to conceal or coverup how the virus came to be, I'm all for that but I don't think billionaires want to kill off all their neighbors just so they can have the earth all to themselves. They enjoy the power and control over people and policy too much for that.
  - Johanx64 5y ago
    >although consumption is much higher there is still such a need for continued population growth in western nations that immigration is used to ensure there are enough younger workers to support the wealthier aging populations It's because social-security/pension systems are a pyramid schemes that can't sustain themselves without ever growing population. I consider many Western EU countries overpopulated (UK, Italy, etc), Google Maps satellite images also do a pretty good job at portraying at just how overpopulated the earth is. Pop growth every decade is still insane.
sigmaprimus 5y ago
I live in Canada so it is age based. I'm guessing it will be either Pfizer or Moderna both of which are mRNA which from my understanding is a form of gene therapy. My main concern at the moment is: Just as the virus can mutate during it's replicatative phase and produce variants why can't the spiked protien during it's production or the cells producing it mutate also? If these production cells can mutate or the spiked protiens themselves mutate is it reasonable to assume an autoimmune diseases may result as the cells or protiens accumulate in my organs, limphnodes, fat cells or other areas? This is an honest concern that I am hoping can be resolved, rather than be dismissed or attacked.
- ianlevesque 5y ago
  https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  The very TLDR response to this is that MRNA is temporary and not self-replicating. Within a few hours of being administered, all the MRNA in the vaccine has been broken down by the body into amino acids. MRNA can't mutate because it doesn't replicate. It just produces proteins.
  - sigmaprimus 5y ago
    Thank You, that is what I needed to hear and it sounds reasonable, what sort of proteins does it produce? Just the spiked ones or longer strands like DNA? Could You also offer up another TL;DR answer as to why the booster seems to present significantly more side effects? Thanks
    - Godel_unicode 5y ago
      DNA is not a protein, DNA is not a type of protein, DNA is not formed from protein. DNA is not formed using instructions from mRNA, nor is it modified by mRNA. DNA is made up of nucleotides, proteins are made up of amino acids. They are chemically different things. As every medical expert has been saying for months now, the vaccine doesn't effect your DNA. The immune response is what causes the side effects, and the immune response is stronger with the second dose (this follows intuitively from immunity being more robust after 2 doses).
halfjoking 5y ago
So why is there no traditional vaccine? I trust Sinovac. It's inactive virus vaccine, and they ship raw materials[1] to other countries and say "build it yourself" at manufacturers that have no connection to the Chinese government. Bill Gates on the other hand says these vaccines are too complex and that safety and security issues[2] make it impossible for anyone else to produce these vaccines. The media keep saying "even mRNA vaccines that are new don't enter the nucleus or alter DNA." Guess which could do that? The viral vector vaccines that have custom DNA run in the nucleus, which then produces the mRNA. This MedCram video[3] explains it better than me. Everything around the messaging for vaccines in mainstream media is so misleading if you look at the science. I don't know how someone couldn't be at least a little suspicious. I have longcovid btw, I'm not getting the shot. People repeat BS to me like the vaccines will cure longcovid. They offer no proof whatsoever, no plausible method of action, and go off the media narrative how it "could help some people." I'm on longcovid forums, I trust the anecdotal experiences there than anything in the media. [1] https://en.tempo.co/read/1445856/16-million-sinovac-vaccines-material-arrives-in-indonesia https://en.tempo.co/read/1445856/16-million-sinovac-vaccines... [2] https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/bill-gates-believes-covid-19-vaccine-tech-should-not-be-given-to-india-what-he-said-and-why-he-said-it-1798357-2021-05-03 https://www.indiatoday.in/technology/news/story/bill-gates-b... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qT7wLxkvU#t=1m30s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13qT7wLxkvU#t=1m30s
- grej 5y ago
  Except that the experience of Chile, and Seychelles in particular is bringing Sinopharm's efficacy into question. I'm very interested in Novavax also but it keeps facing regulatory and production issues. Both I and my wife had the J&J vaccine a couple months ago. We had a period of about 12, maybe 18 hours of feeling like we had a light case of the flu, and fine since. The J&J and AZ vaccines also use your cells produce spike proteins but do it with a different way (adenovirus vector) than the mRNA vaccines.

cycrutchfield 5y ago

>I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancelation. Sorry, what is the downside to getting the vaccine in your mind?

dnautics 5y ago
I advocate getting vaccinated (I am myself) but if people don't want to put foreign substances into their bodies, we should respect their choices, especially since the long-term risk profile is unknown (we are pretty sure it's safe, but who can know?)
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  We can. There have been hundreds of millions of doses administered and we are keeping track of the side effects.
  - dnautics 5y ago
    there are some things you can't know without time travel. what happens after having the vaccine for 5 years? 10? The immune system is strange. There are very few mRNA vaccines that have been deployed to date. Can you be sure you aren't, for example, at elevated risk for something like MS? You can't. Again, I say this as someone who made the choice to get the vaccine. The worst thing about conspiracy theories is that some of them are true. If you don't like people being "anti-science", then the one thing you CANNOT do is shove scientifically irresponsible stuff down their throat in the name of expediency.
- loxias 5y ago
  > we should respect their choices Honestly, why should I do that? I would if their choices only affected themselves. People have a right to control their own destiny. But their choices affect me, and, more importantly, those I care about. So no, I don't respect anyone's "choice" to be an unvaccinated asshole, increasing the chance that people I care about will die. I don't respect the "choice" to aide a foreign microbe in evolving in its ability to hurt me and our species. Why are we thinking of this as some sort of delicate "choice" we need to respect, instead of recognizing it for what it is? Treason.

blacksoil 5y ago

I'm not sure why you're being downvoted...

loxias 5y ago

> I have an appointment to get my first jab in 43 hours from now and I am bouncing back and forth between getting it and cancellation. Cancellation??!??! WTF? Why? You have a free, safe, live-saving vaccine being offered to you! Why would you not take it?? Putting aside the fact that not being vaccinated is a horrible selfish act that hastens the evolution of a more virulent strain and more death, don't you want to relax a bit after this past year?

reedjosh 5y ago
> WTF? Why? You have a free, safe, live-saving vaccine being offered to you! Why would you not take it?? People have real distrust of the system that produced the vaccine and even distrust of the media that purports this disease is so deadly. I know from your perspective scepticism is hard to understand, but it's not that God tells me science is fake or anything so outlandish. I genuinely don't trust the corporations and government selling me the story of the disease and now the vaccine, and it should be allowed that people question these institutions.
- loxias 5y ago
  > People have real distrust of the system that produced the vaccine and even distrust of the media that purports this disease is so deadly. WHY??? Why do they distrust the vaccine?? Anything? Any possible reason? It's probably the safest vaccine ever made. I. DON'T. GET. IT. Do others not hear the ambulances? Do they not see the overflow from the hospitals? Are the dead bodies some sort of elaborate deep fake?? Has the whole world gone mad??? Brother, I love skepticism. It's healthy. It's *good*. I don't blindly trust corporations or the government, as far as I'm concerned the former only wants profit and the latter only wants power. But that's got nothing to do with it, from my perspective. When your house is on fire you don't debate the motivations of the fire department. You put out the fire first, and THEN have time for dithering and analysis.
  - toast0 5y ago
    > WHY??? Why do they distrust the vaccine?? Anything? Any possible reason? It's probably the safest vaccine ever made. I. DON'T. GET. IT. I'm getting my 2nd shot this week, but both mRNA and modified adenovirus vaccines have never been used for mass vaccinations before. The history of medicine is litered with interventions that were seen as totally safe and wonderful and lead to terrible consequences after some time. Push towards massive adoption of an intervention sets off my alarm bells. All that said, personally, it seems the unknown long term risks of vaccination outweigh the more or less known risks of covid both on an individual level (I don't want to get it) and a community level (I'd rather like community spread to stop, so I can go back to being a hermit by choice); but if community spread wasn't happening near me, I would be happier not trying new medicine within a year of development.

nickthemagicman 5y ago

If you're under 55 and are healthy your chances of dying from this virus are basically non-existent. You'll get a sniffle/fever for a few days and then be immune. Don't put an experimental drug into your body for no reason. Anyone who says variant or strains are a problem has merely to look at over 50% of the United States with no covid restrictions for months who are at record lows of infections and with minimal vaccines. The variant or strain problem is a nothing burger.

bavent 5y ago
Tell that to my 30-year-old sister - who still has migraines and extreme fatigue a year after catching covid, who was healthy, an avid runner, and had no preexisting conditions before.
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  ----- 27,000 (ish) people under the age of 55 died of Covid out of 350 million. 0.0007714285% chance of dying from Covid. ------ 32% of 10 million(ish) infections reported 'long covid'. This is 3.2 million. ------ 2% of America are hypochondriacs. That's 6.4 million people. ----- Statistically it's most likely that your sister is a hypochondriac and she needs a psychiatrist. ------ Also, this is what it sounds like when people give anecdotal evidence on the internet. https://youtu.be/xzYO0joolR0 https://youtu.be/xzYO0joolR0 ----- Reference for long Covid statistics: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7392393/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7392393/
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  Whatever user flagged my comment. That's B.S. It's nothing but factual statements. You can't just flag a statement because it disagrees with your narrative. Lame.