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A lot in this comment that I would like to understand. What is the source of this despair? You mention: low pay, undesirable job, inability to progress, and ina

A lot in this comment that I would like to understand. What is the source of this despair? You mention: low pay, undesirable job, inability to progress, and inability to afford land. What exactly is it about government programs that provide any of those? It seems the issue is entirely something else if the "solution" doesn't actually address the problems.

crocodiletears 5y ago
The solution isn't a solution, it's the idea of giving up on a future you realize doesn't belong to you, working disproportionately hard for a minor bump in standard of living, and instead living in marginal comfort for less effort until you die.
- mgh2 5y ago
  Why are so many migrants desperate to get in on the border? Give these jobs to them instead. That is some perspective.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "Why are so many migrants desperate to get in on the border?" Because it's all relative. The shitty jobs here are much better than the shitty jobs there. Giving them the jobs won't fix anything. Now you would be adding to the people at the bottom of the income scale while still having people who were here drop out of the work force. If anything, the availability of cheap labor (and labor that is afraid to complain due to illegal status or because it's better than their past) keeps the labor price low, which could arguably hurt the overall labor price (I know, I know, Americans don't want those jobs; but maybe they would if they paid a lot more).
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - tdfx 5y ago
    Two reasons: (1) They are being sold fantasies about how wonderful the US is, which don't reflect the reality of the life they will experience when they get here. There's a massive industry built around smuggling, fake documentation, and relocation assistance for illegal immigrants in the US. They make a ton of money selling the "American Dream" to desperate people. (2) Even with a "low paying" job in the US, you still acquire an enormous amount of spending power in their home country, so remittances to family are extremely helpful. Often these people are coming from countries where $400-500 USD a month (or less) supports a family of 4-6 people.
  - XorNot 5y ago
    Because they're fleeing violence, organized crime and corruption, both in general and some which is specifically targeting them (i.e. wrong place, wrong time, witnessed something).
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - crocodiletears 5y ago
    This is a useless comparison. Certainly the existential malaise experienced by many in the first world is incomparable to the necessities of keeping your family safe from instability and violence in the third world, and the aspiration to acquire the stability of the first at great risk. But scolding someone for pouring out spoiled milk because there are children dying of thirst in Africa does little to fix the fact that the milk has gone bad. Our great grandparents generation were traumatized by depressions, wars, and deprivation. We are afforded the luxury of being isolated from such experiences. That is no reason to declare society a finished product, and reject any criticisms of it. Many of us want to have a hand in building a future in-which they can believe, and in-which they and their children have a meaningful place. But the world has become too big, too complex. Humans are increasingly cheap commodities to be consumed and replaced by massivr structures both private, and state - all hell-bent upon the minimization of the impact one is permitted to have on society. It is tempting to give up on ambitions, and instead live an easy, somewhat comfortable, if uneasely purposeless life. Edit: added a lot, first two paragraphs were the original comment
  - Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
    The migrant, and refuge 'crises' are the consequence of U.S. imperialism the world over. What are people supposed to do when their country is being destroyed by an invading army with superior forces? There's nothing left for the average person in these countries. Fighting results in death, or do you want to become Cuba?
ineedasername 5y ago
It's not that the government programs provide those. It's that if you don't see a clear path to those things, and the extra $300/week unemployment benefit puts you not too far from what you were making at the shit job, why not wait until the benefits run out to go back to the shit job?
- hervature 5y ago
  That's perfectly logical, why dress it up with all this talk about land and such as the reason to milk unemployment? This is standard practice in the maritime provinces of Canada where you fish for the season and claim unemployment until the next fishing season with no intention of getting a job in the meantime.
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    Because America is insanely obsessed with Working Your Ass Off and with casting hate upon anyone who might dare be getting by without making that same sacrifice of most of your waking life at the altar of Capitalism and Sharehold Profit.
  - jeffy90 5y ago
    I think if there were a clear path to increased salary that came with the job, people wouldn't milk benefits but would start down the path that leads to growth. So I think OP is dressing it up to show that in the absence of a path towards growth, people just milk benefits.
    - hervature 5y ago
      Thank you for actually putting an explanation forward. One day, I hope to own a business and want to treat all my employees with dignity and respect. Knowing that people need a prospect of growth from their employer is incredibly useful to hear. Obviously, the policies associated with "paying more" and "provide growth opportunities" are entirely different.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
giantg2 5y ago
It doesn't provide those things, but it does provide the basics. So if your job doesn't provide those things either, the basics are the best you can hope for. This means you might as well attain those basics at the lowest effort.
- lumost 5y ago
  There is a lot of merit to this comment. Historically many individuals would have the option to progress (or at least the illusion of an option) from sweeping floors to something greater within a company. A line worker at a plant could easily become a machinist, and from entry level skilled labor move into advanced skilled labor. At this point most of those jobs are done as 1099's via a proxy firm. There are few options for anyone in such a position to level up in, and pivoting to another service gig isn't going to provide significant upwards mobility options. Even starting a business is more capital intensive now relative to the earnings you can make from it thanks to cheap money. If there is no option to reasonably advance, it's reasonable that people will simply optimize to have the lowest effort.
- tejtm 5y ago
  It is more than that, it is a different flavor of hope, if your not having your time and soul devoured to attain the basics maybe something else will have a chance to grow. Yes without landmarks, guides, tutors, examples, culture many if not most will achieve the next level in some game instead as that is what they know, but some will bloom and that is more than good enough for me.

crocodiletears 5y ago

The solution isn't a solution, it's the idea of giving up on a future you realize doesn't belong to you, working disproportionately hard for a minor bump in standard of living, and instead living in marginal comfort for less effort until you die.

mgh2 5y ago
Why are so many migrants desperate to get in on the border? Give these jobs to them instead. That is some perspective.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "Why are so many migrants desperate to get in on the border?" Because it's all relative. The shitty jobs here are much better than the shitty jobs there. Giving them the jobs won't fix anything. Now you would be adding to the people at the bottom of the income scale while still having people who were here drop out of the work force. If anything, the availability of cheap labor (and labor that is afraid to complain due to illegal status or because it's better than their past) keeps the labor price low, which could arguably hurt the overall labor price (I know, I know, Americans don't want those jobs; but maybe they would if they paid a lot more).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- tdfx 5y ago
  Two reasons: (1) They are being sold fantasies about how wonderful the US is, which don't reflect the reality of the life they will experience when they get here. There's a massive industry built around smuggling, fake documentation, and relocation assistance for illegal immigrants in the US. They make a ton of money selling the "American Dream" to desperate people. (2) Even with a "low paying" job in the US, you still acquire an enormous amount of spending power in their home country, so remittances to family are extremely helpful. Often these people are coming from countries where $400-500 USD a month (or less) supports a family of 4-6 people.
- XorNot 5y ago
  Because they're fleeing violence, organized crime and corruption, both in general and some which is specifically targeting them (i.e. wrong place, wrong time, witnessed something).
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- crocodiletears 5y ago
  This is a useless comparison. Certainly the existential malaise experienced by many in the first world is incomparable to the necessities of keeping your family safe from instability and violence in the third world, and the aspiration to acquire the stability of the first at great risk. But scolding someone for pouring out spoiled milk because there are children dying of thirst in Africa does little to fix the fact that the milk has gone bad. Our great grandparents generation were traumatized by depressions, wars, and deprivation. We are afforded the luxury of being isolated from such experiences. That is no reason to declare society a finished product, and reject any criticisms of it. Many of us want to have a hand in building a future in-which they can believe, and in-which they and their children have a meaningful place. But the world has become too big, too complex. Humans are increasingly cheap commodities to be consumed and replaced by massivr structures both private, and state - all hell-bent upon the minimization of the impact one is permitted to have on society. It is tempting to give up on ambitions, and instead live an easy, somewhat comfortable, if uneasely purposeless life. Edit: added a lot, first two paragraphs were the original comment
- Red_Leaves_Flyy 5y ago
  The migrant, and refuge 'crises' are the consequence of U.S. imperialism the world over. What are people supposed to do when their country is being destroyed by an invading army with superior forces? There's nothing left for the average person in these countries. Fighting results in death, or do you want to become Cuba?

ineedasername 5y ago

It's not that the government programs provide those. It's that if you don't see a clear path to those things, and the extra $300/week unemployment benefit puts you not too far from what you were making at the shit job, why not wait until the benefits run out to go back to the shit job?

hervature 5y ago
That's perfectly logical, why dress it up with all this talk about land and such as the reason to milk unemployment? This is standard practice in the maritime provinces of Canada where you fish for the season and claim unemployment until the next fishing season with no intention of getting a job in the meantime.
- egypturnash 5y ago
  Because America is insanely obsessed with Working Your Ass Off and with casting hate upon anyone who might dare be getting by without making that same sacrifice of most of your waking life at the altar of Capitalism and Sharehold Profit.
- jeffy90 5y ago
  I think if there were a clear path to increased salary that came with the job, people wouldn't milk benefits but would start down the path that leads to growth. So I think OP is dressing it up to show that in the absence of a path towards growth, people just milk benefits.
  - hervature 5y ago
    Thank you for actually putting an explanation forward. One day, I hope to own a business and want to treat all my employees with dignity and respect. Knowing that people need a prospect of growth from their employer is incredibly useful to hear. Obviously, the policies associated with "paying more" and "provide growth opportunities" are entirely different.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

giantg2 5y ago

It doesn't provide those things, but it does provide the basics. So if your job doesn't provide those things either, the basics are the best you can hope for. This means you might as well attain those basics at the lowest effort.

lumost 5y ago
There is a lot of merit to this comment. Historically many individuals would have the option to progress (or at least the illusion of an option) from sweeping floors to something greater within a company. A line worker at a plant could easily become a machinist, and from entry level skilled labor move into advanced skilled labor. At this point most of those jobs are done as 1099's via a proxy firm. There are few options for anyone in such a position to level up in, and pivoting to another service gig isn't going to provide significant upwards mobility options. Even starting a business is more capital intensive now relative to the earnings you can make from it thanks to cheap money. If there is no option to reasonably advance, it's reasonable that people will simply optimize to have the lowest effort.
tejtm 5y ago
It is more than that, it is a different flavor of hope, if your not having your time and soul devoured to attain the basics maybe something else will have a chance to grow. Yes without landmarks, guides, tutors, examples, culture many if not most will achieve the next level in some game instead as that is what they know, but some will bloom and that is more than good enough for me.