5 ms·

I suspected that would be the response. If you close down all the businesses that can't survive paying more for unskilled or semi-skilled labour, what do all th

by alvah 5y ago

I suspected that would be the response. If you close down all the businesses that can't survive paying more for unskilled or semi-skilled labour, what do all the unskilled and semi-skilled people do? Where do they get the opportunity to upskill?

mavelikara 5y ago
> If you close down all the businesses that can't survive paying more for unskilled or semi-skilled labour, what do all the unskilled and semi-skilled people do? They get deployed in other commercial activities that can make more efficient use of their time, and hence, pay them more.
- alvah 5y ago
  Very good in theory. Any suggestions on how to get from here to there in the real world, without massive disruption to people's real lives? The consequences of massively & rapidly increasing the number of unemployed doesn't seem to be covered in the libertarian literature. History books do cover this though.
  - laughingbovine 5y ago
    This is a strange argument. Are you saying that we should never raise minimum wage? It isn't even keeping up with inflation. As for the history books, I recall we've raised the minimum wage in the past. The US still exists, so i guess the history books say its ok?
    - alvah 5y ago
      It's not strange at all, you just didn't understand the point. Libertarian theory has all kinds of bizarre reasoning about human nature, which doesn't translate into the real world. History, on the other hand, does provide a guide to how large numbers of actual people have behaved in the past, when cast on to the scrap heap of life. Human nature doesn't change rapidly. I'm not taking your bait (never raise minimum wage), but it's important to be aware that, at the margin, increasing the cost of any business input will result in business attempting to substitute that input to the extent possible - i.e. fewer jobs.
darkhorse22 5y ago
They don't, so there will be much more unrest.
nradov 5y ago
Keeping zombie businesses alive for the sake of steady employment is one of the reasons that Japan has been stagnant for many years. A healthy economy needs creative destruction.
- csa 5y ago
  As someone who has seen this firsthand while living in Japan, I agree with your statement. What is more, one of the things that I love about the US is that we seem to be fairly good at deconstructing and reconstructing relatively quickly and efficiently. Our system isn’t perfect (tends to favor the capital class and stick it to labor more than I would prefer), but I personally think it’s much better than what Japan has done.
bialpio 5y ago
But if you don't close those businesses, you get people who are one financial emergency away from bankruptcy. You get people who have no chance of bettering their lives. I do not have a solution, but that does not mean that I cannot call out what I see as the problem.
- alvah 5y ago
  I agree with you in theory. Theory often fails to survive the first contact with the enemy (reality) though.
  - bialpio 5y ago
    Reality is not the enemy here, hard life is and I'd like to think that we're all in this together & we'll help each other out. :-) I'm hoping we're becoming an advanced enough society that we'll be able to at least provide food, shelter and basic health insurance for everyone free of charge. But enough dreaming for today...

by alvah 5y ago

mavelikara 5y ago

> If you close down all the businesses that can't survive paying more for unskilled or semi-skilled labour, what do all the unskilled and semi-skilled people do? They get deployed in other commercial activities that can make more efficient use of their time, and hence, pay them more.

alvah 5y ago
Very good in theory. Any suggestions on how to get from here to there in the real world, without massive disruption to people's real lives? The consequences of massively & rapidly increasing the number of unemployed doesn't seem to be covered in the libertarian literature. History books do cover this though.
- laughingbovine 5y ago
  This is a strange argument. Are you saying that we should never raise minimum wage? It isn't even keeping up with inflation. As for the history books, I recall we've raised the minimum wage in the past. The US still exists, so i guess the history books say its ok?
  - alvah 5y ago
    It's not strange at all, you just didn't understand the point. Libertarian theory has all kinds of bizarre reasoning about human nature, which doesn't translate into the real world. History, on the other hand, does provide a guide to how large numbers of actual people have behaved in the past, when cast on to the scrap heap of life. Human nature doesn't change rapidly. I'm not taking your bait (never raise minimum wage), but it's important to be aware that, at the margin, increasing the cost of any business input will result in business attempting to substitute that input to the extent possible - i.e. fewer jobs.

darkhorse22 5y ago

They don't, so there will be much more unrest.

nradov 5y ago

Keeping zombie businesses alive for the sake of steady employment is one of the reasons that Japan has been stagnant for many years. A healthy economy needs creative destruction.

csa 5y ago
As someone who has seen this firsthand while living in Japan, I agree with your statement. What is more, one of the things that I love about the US is that we seem to be fairly good at deconstructing and reconstructing relatively quickly and efficiently. Our system isn’t perfect (tends to favor the capital class and stick it to labor more than I would prefer), but I personally think it’s much better than what Japan has done.

bialpio 5y ago

But if you don't close those businesses, you get people who are one financial emergency away from bankruptcy. You get people who have no chance of bettering their lives. I do not have a solution, but that does not mean that I cannot call out what I see as the problem.

alvah 5y ago
I agree with you in theory. Theory often fails to survive the first contact with the enemy (reality) though.
- bialpio 5y ago
  Reality is not the enemy here, hard life is and I'd like to think that we're all in this together & we'll help each other out. :-) I'm hoping we're becoming an advanced enough society that we'll be able to at least provide food, shelter and basic health insurance for everyone free of charge. But enough dreaming for today...