5 ms·

Not really, for example in France I can go and do a full-spectrum healthcare check (eyes, dental, physical, mental, name it...) and it would cost me -in total-

Not really, for example in France I can go and do a full-spectrum healthcare check (eyes, dental, physical, mental, name it...) and it would cost me -in total- less than 100€ nothing is deduced from my salary. One year of prestigious university is less than 600€ in fees... Cost of living, education, transportation, etc... also are a factor.

gpm 5y ago
The health check is paid for out of taxes though, in the end money/goods/services aren't free. I mean sure, France's government and health care system is probably a bit more efficient than America's, but I doubt it's order of magnitude different. Maybe more importantly, but in the other direction, as a developer in France you're probably paying more for healthcare than you use (subsidizing the average person who pays less taxes). Quite arguably differences like those are things that you are purchasing with your salary by choosing to live in the US instead of France, I don't think it's either desirable or really possible to eliminate them.
- Raed667 5y ago
  Hence my inability to compare a 150k$ offer in California to a 62k€ offer in Lyon.
  - gpm 5y ago
    I mean, completing my argument with those numbers 62k€ = 75k usd, 150 - 75 = 75. so assuming both numbers are before tax (and neglecting things like bonuses, benefits, equity, etc that you probably need to add into both numbers), there's your comparison. Now the question to you is "is Lyon worth 75k/year over California". That's not a question of compensation, that's just a question of how much you value the difference in culture and society. Do you want to spend 75k$/year on purchasing universal healthcare (edit: I.e. your share of healthcare for everyone instead of what you purchase in the US, which is approximately just healthcare for you), a better public education system, a better social security system, less... American... neighbors, and/or whatever else you think Lyon gives you over California. Edit: Accidentally had this saying "after tax" instead of "before tax" for an hour, I think everyone replying to me mentally corrected that anyways, but noting that I fixed it here in case they didn't.
    - Keats 5y ago
      French always use before taxes numbers ("brut"). €62k is about 41k after taxes.
      - gpm 5y ago
        I'm the first to admit I have no clue about the French tax system, but a quick search finds this [1] that suggests there are both employer and employee paid taxes. Would I be right in assuming that the reported numbers are after the employer paid taxes and before the employee paid ones? [1] https://www.cabinet-roche.com/en/payroll-taxes-in-france/ https://www.cabinet-roche.com/en/payroll-taxes-in-france/
        Raed667 5y ago
        TBH for the average employee it doesn't matter if the company or you are paying, it gets deducted automatically anyway. There are websites [0] that will help you do the conversion Brut/Net easily [0] https://www.salaire-brut-en-net.fr/ https://www.salaire-brut-en-net.fr/
    - _delirium 5y ago
      > I.e. your share of healthcare for everyone instead of what you purchase in the US, which is approximately just healthcare for you This is getting off-topic, but maybe surprisingly, Americans pay more to subsidize other people's healthcare than the average French taxpayer does, despite the American system not being universal. Some back-of-envelope numbers, France: Total French healthcare spending in 2017 was $337 billion, of which 77%, or $259 billion, was publicly financed. [1] U.S.: Total U.S. healthcare spending was $3.8 trillion in 2019, of which 45%, or $1.7 trillion, was publicly financed (29% federal, 16% state/local, 55% private). [2] Adjusting for the two countries' population sizes, that puts publicly financed healthcare spending at about $3900 per capita in France, versus $5200 per person in the US. Basically the somewhat lower public share for the US (45% vs. 77%) is outweighed by costs being about twice as high. [1] https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/france https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy... [2] https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/NHE-Fact-Sheet https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta...
- benhurmarcel 5y ago
  > The health check is paid for out of taxes though In Europe most of those taxes are paid by your employer, on top of your "before taxes" salary.
HideousKojima 5y ago
Average cost of healthcare in the US is ~$15,000 a year for a family of 4. When you're working full time, your employer generally covers most of your healthcare with a small amount contributed by you, and this employer contribution is counted separately from your salary. It depends on the employer, but the cost to you is generally in the range of $1,000-$6,000 a year. So no guarantee of health care coverage after losing your job etc. but it's basically only ~$6,000 extra a year out of your salary at worst. So a $150,000 job in the U.S. is roughly equivalent to a $144,000 job in Europe (before you get into housing and food prices etc.)

gpm 5y ago

The health check is paid for out of taxes though, in the end money/goods/services aren't free. I mean sure, France's government and health care system is probably a bit more efficient than America's, but I doubt it's order of magnitude different. Maybe more importantly, but in the other direction, as a developer in France you're probably paying more for healthcare than you use (subsidizing the average person who pays less taxes). Quite arguably differences like those are things that you are purchasing with your salary by choosing to live in the US instead of France, I don't think it's either desirable or really possible to eliminate them.

Raed667 5y ago
Hence my inability to compare a 150k$ offer in California to a 62k€ offer in Lyon.
- gpm 5y ago
  I mean, completing my argument with those numbers 62k€ = 75k usd, 150 - 75 = 75. so assuming both numbers are before tax (and neglecting things like bonuses, benefits, equity, etc that you probably need to add into both numbers), there's your comparison. Now the question to you is "is Lyon worth 75k/year over California". That's not a question of compensation, that's just a question of how much you value the difference in culture and society. Do you want to spend 75k$/year on purchasing universal healthcare (edit: I.e. your share of healthcare for everyone instead of what you purchase in the US, which is approximately just healthcare for you), a better public education system, a better social security system, less... American... neighbors, and/or whatever else you think Lyon gives you over California. Edit: Accidentally had this saying "after tax" instead of "before tax" for an hour, I think everyone replying to me mentally corrected that anyways, but noting that I fixed it here in case they didn't.
  - Keats 5y ago
    French always use before taxes numbers ("brut"). €62k is about 41k after taxes.
    - gpm 5y ago
      I'm the first to admit I have no clue about the French tax system, but a quick search finds this [1] that suggests there are both employer and employee paid taxes. Would I be right in assuming that the reported numbers are after the employer paid taxes and before the employee paid ones? [1] https://www.cabinet-roche.com/en/payroll-taxes-in-france/ https://www.cabinet-roche.com/en/payroll-taxes-in-france/
      - Raed667 5y ago
        TBH for the average employee it doesn't matter if the company or you are paying, it gets deducted automatically anyway. There are websites [0] that will help you do the conversion Brut/Net easily [0] https://www.salaire-brut-en-net.fr/ https://www.salaire-brut-en-net.fr/
  - _delirium 5y ago
    > I.e. your share of healthcare for everyone instead of what you purchase in the US, which is approximately just healthcare for you This is getting off-topic, but maybe surprisingly, Americans pay more to subsidize other people's healthcare than the average French taxpayer does, despite the American system not being universal. Some back-of-envelope numbers, France: Total French healthcare spending in 2017 was $337 billion, of which 77%, or $259 billion, was publicly financed. [1] U.S.: Total U.S. healthcare spending was $3.8 trillion in 2019, of which 45%, or $1.7 trillion, was publicly financed (29% federal, 16% state/local, 55% private). [2] Adjusting for the two countries' population sizes, that puts publicly financed healthcare spending at about $3900 per capita in France, versus $5200 per person in the US. Basically the somewhat lower public share for the US (45% vs. 77%) is outweighed by costs being about twice as high. [1] https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy-center/countries/france https://www.commonwealthfund.org/international-health-policy... [2] https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Statistics-Trends-and-Reports/NationalHealthExpendData/NHE-Fact-Sheet https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/Sta...
benhurmarcel 5y ago
> The health check is paid for out of taxes though In Europe most of those taxes are paid by your employer, on top of your "before taxes" salary.

HideousKojima 5y ago

Average cost of healthcare in the US is ~$15,000 a year for a family of 4. When you're working full time, your employer generally covers most of your healthcare with a small amount contributed by you, and this employer contribution is counted separately from your salary. It depends on the employer, but the cost to you is generally in the range of $1,000-$6,000 a year. So no guarantee of health care coverage after losing your job etc. but it's basically only ~$6,000 extra a year out of your salary at worst. So a $150,000 job in the U.S. is roughly equivalent to a $144,000 job in Europe (before you get into housing and food prices etc.)