4 ms·

I can not comprehend the mindset that would let someone work for years on building something, and then go, "I know what I want this to be used for: Murder!"

Mauricebranagh 5y ago
You know most of SV was built on military tech requirements and its not "murder" if its a navy assaulting an enemy ship.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  Only in the strictest legal sense. It still involves intentionally killing human beings.
  - wedn3sday 5y ago
    Is pulling the lever in a Trolley Problem murder? Is the navy sniper who killed the pirate captain who was holding hostages at gun point a murderer? Seams like you're taking a moral absoluist stance in a very morally grey world, and remember "only sith deal in absolutes."
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Star Wars is not a very good basis for a moral argument.
      - Veen 5y ago
        Nor is naiveté. There are bad people in the world. That's a brute fact you have to account for in your moral reckoning. If you take the purist "no violence" stance, you're abandoning victims to their fate so you can remain pure. That doesn't seem moral to me.
ArnoVW 5y ago
Without making any statement of adherence from my part (on your perspective, or any of the below), I'll give you some possible alternative perspectives I can think of: - "this way I can help our guys protect innocent civilians" - "I need to sell this to to develop my baby (which I'm sure will ultimately benefit humanity); I'd prefer to sell this to Indian orphanages, too bad they have no budget or use for this" As a anside, the product has already been sold to Argentinian mountaineering search-and-rescue teams. To get an idea of the motivations or people in the Army, I can recommend "why I chose a gun", a 15 minute TED talk by a Dutch army officer that explains his reasoning. https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_van_uhm_why_i_chose_a_gun/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_van_uhm_why_i_chose_a_gun/tr... Or to give some historical perspective: Christiaan Huygens developed clocks for (military) naval navigation. Not because he was the type of gung-ho "let's kick some French ass" type of guy. In fact, he collaborated scientifically with French and English, being Dutch, even when for example France was at war with Holland. He just wanted to Make Something People Love (tm). And at the time, the only one able to foot that sort of R&D bill was the state. If the state had not invested huge sums like that, it's not at all obvious that he would have been able to perform his work.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  If I am given the choice of making something which I will enjoy making, but that will be used to kill a single human being, and not making it, I will choose not making it every single time.
- armagon 5y ago
  That was an excellent TedX talk. Thank you for sharing it.
neither_color 5y ago
The way it's demonstrated in this video looks geared towards search and rescue, anti-piracy, hostage situations, etc.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  And why are you taking that at face value?
pmoriarty 5y ago
Most of them don't think of it as murder, but (at worst) a dirty job that someone has to do.. and many of them think of themselves as performing a selfless service to their country. For others it's just a job, the family business, or a way out of a desperate situation. Of course, as with any job with the power of life and death over others, there'll be some sadists who enjoy hurting or killing, sociopaths who care about nothing but themselves, and those who just want power. For others it's just a fun and exciting adventure (or so they expect before they experience it). Being in an actual war and witnessing and/or participating in real-life violence up-close sometimes leads to massive guilt, PTSD, and disillusionment.. but others remain true believers their whole life. Those who've never participated in combat (or at least not at close range) nor witnessed the long-term devastating impact of war on its victims are some of the truest believers of all.
mam3 5y ago
It's called "defense" for a reason. No strong society can exist without a public force.
BiosElement 5y ago
You consider a transportation device "murder"? Interesting, seeing as it also can be used to do the opposite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvCnZqZnxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvCnZqZnxc
- user-the-name 5y ago
  No, I am calling what armies and navies do "murder", as they kill people.
  - Grakel 5y ago
    The US Navy is the largest peace keeping and rescue organization in the world. Just one aircraft carrier is a disaster response super hero, complete with a hospital, food, clean water, and tents.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      They also murder people.
  - wing-_-nuts 5y ago
    Sometimes 'murder' is justified, like when you're protecting civilians against pirates. That's the main use-case I see here. Nobody in their right mind would send these guys against an armed vessel.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Killing and murdering can be two different things, which is why we have separate words for the actions. You're conflating the two things as though they're always the same. To kill is not inherently to murder. Typically from a legal and moral perspective killing someone in self-defense is not murder, for example.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Armies don't generally kill in self defence, though.
spike021 5y ago
You're probably missing the fact that there are clear scenarios this could be used for where for one thing murder isn't the priority, and for another it may not be malevolent either. i.e. * Somali (or similar) pirates hijack a freight vessel and are potentially holding crew hostage. So there needs to be a quick way to render aid/help with extraction. * As someone else up-thread mentioned, this can also be used to aid in SAR missions, such as in mountainous terrain.
chrisseaton 5y ago
What do you think should be done when someone hijacks a ship and crew and starts threatening to kill them? I don't understand pacifists - are people willing to literally just lie down and be killed and let others be killed and do nothing and prepare to do nothing?
- seryoiupfurds 5y ago
  If we simply disband the imperialist military-industrial complex, those people will no longer be tragically forced into a life of violence and we will all sing Kumbaya.
JoeyBananas 5y ago
It's not murder, it's defense

Mauricebranagh 5y ago

You know most of SV was built on military tech requirements and its not "murder" if its a navy assaulting an enemy ship.

user-the-name 5y ago
Only in the strictest legal sense. It still involves intentionally killing human beings.
- wedn3sday 5y ago
  Is pulling the lever in a Trolley Problem murder? Is the navy sniper who killed the pirate captain who was holding hostages at gun point a murderer? Seams like you're taking a moral absoluist stance in a very morally grey world, and remember "only sith deal in absolutes."
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Star Wars is not a very good basis for a moral argument.
    - Veen 5y ago
      Nor is naiveté. There are bad people in the world. That's a brute fact you have to account for in your moral reckoning. If you take the purist "no violence" stance, you're abandoning victims to their fate so you can remain pure. That doesn't seem moral to me.

ArnoVW 5y ago

Without making any statement of adherence from my part (on your perspective, or any of the below), I'll give you some possible alternative perspectives I can think of: - "this way I can help our guys protect innocent civilians" - "I need to sell this to to develop my baby (which I'm sure will ultimately benefit humanity); I'd prefer to sell this to Indian orphanages, too bad they have no budget or use for this" As a anside, the product has already been sold to Argentinian mountaineering search-and-rescue teams. To get an idea of the motivations or people in the Army, I can recommend "why I chose a gun", a 15 minute TED talk by a Dutch army officer that explains his reasoning. https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_van_uhm_why_i_chose_a_gun/transcript https://www.ted.com/talks/peter_van_uhm_why_i_chose_a_gun/tr... Or to give some historical perspective: Christiaan Huygens developed clocks for (military) naval navigation. Not because he was the type of gung-ho "let's kick some French ass" type of guy. In fact, he collaborated scientifically with French and English, being Dutch, even when for example France was at war with Holland. He just wanted to Make Something People Love (tm). And at the time, the only one able to foot that sort of R&D bill was the state. If the state had not invested huge sums like that, it's not at all obvious that he would have been able to perform his work.

user-the-name 5y ago
If I am given the choice of making something which I will enjoy making, but that will be used to kill a single human being, and not making it, I will choose not making it every single time.
armagon 5y ago
That was an excellent TedX talk. Thank you for sharing it.

neither_color 5y ago

The way it's demonstrated in this video looks geared towards search and rescue, anti-piracy, hostage situations, etc.

user-the-name 5y ago
And why are you taking that at face value?

pmoriarty 5y ago

Most of them don't think of it as murder, but (at worst) a dirty job that someone has to do.. and many of them think of themselves as performing a selfless service to their country. For others it's just a job, the family business, or a way out of a desperate situation. Of course, as with any job with the power of life and death over others, there'll be some sadists who enjoy hurting or killing, sociopaths who care about nothing but themselves, and those who just want power. For others it's just a fun and exciting adventure (or so they expect before they experience it). Being in an actual war and witnessing and/or participating in real-life violence up-close sometimes leads to massive guilt, PTSD, and disillusionment.. but others remain true believers their whole life. Those who've never participated in combat (or at least not at close range) nor witnessed the long-term devastating impact of war on its victims are some of the truest believers of all.

mam3 5y ago

It's called "defense" for a reason. No strong society can exist without a public force.

BiosElement 5y ago

You consider a transportation device "murder"? Interesting, seeing as it also can be used to do the opposite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvCnZqZnxc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtvCnZqZnxc

user-the-name 5y ago
No, I am calling what armies and navies do "murder", as they kill people.
- Grakel 5y ago
  The US Navy is the largest peace keeping and rescue organization in the world. Just one aircraft carrier is a disaster response super hero, complete with a hospital, food, clean water, and tents.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    They also murder people.
- wing-_-nuts 5y ago
  Sometimes 'murder' is justified, like when you're protecting civilians against pirates. That's the main use-case I see here. Nobody in their right mind would send these guys against an armed vessel.
- adventured 5y ago
  Killing and murdering can be two different things, which is why we have separate words for the actions. You're conflating the two things as though they're always the same. To kill is not inherently to murder. Typically from a legal and moral perspective killing someone in self-defense is not murder, for example.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Armies don't generally kill in self defence, though.

spike021 5y ago

You're probably missing the fact that there are clear scenarios this could be used for where for one thing murder isn't the priority, and for another it may not be malevolent either. i.e. * Somali (or similar) pirates hijack a freight vessel and are potentially holding crew hostage. So there needs to be a quick way to render aid/help with extraction. * As someone else up-thread mentioned, this can also be used to aid in SAR missions, such as in mountainous terrain.

chrisseaton 5y ago

What do you think should be done when someone hijacks a ship and crew and starts threatening to kill them? I don't understand pacifists - are people willing to literally just lie down and be killed and let others be killed and do nothing and prepare to do nothing?

seryoiupfurds 5y ago
If we simply disband the imperialist military-industrial complex, those people will no longer be tragically forced into a life of violence and we will all sing Kumbaya.

JoeyBananas 5y ago

It's not murder, it's defense