16 ms·

A Somewhat Comprehensive History of U.S. Senators Who Have Died in Duels

73 points by samclemens 5y ago

1cvmask 5y ago
The one constant in life: Though frequently illegal, duels often avoided prosecution, possibly because the participants tended to hold positions of power, such as United States senator.
- aaronbrethorst 5y ago
  And don't forget, you pay the doctor in advance, treat him with civility, and have him turn around so he can have deniability.
  - mattkrause 5y ago
    Very apt username (at least the first part)!
    - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
      I occasionally think about this 1990 “Got Milk” ad directed by Michael Bay and note that the identity of Alexander Hamilton’s duel partner (saying nothing of his own identity as the ten dollar founding father without a father) is no longer esoteric knowledge, but a well known fact in popular culture: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLSsswr6z9Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLSsswr6z9Y
      - rriepe 5y ago
        My favorite pop culture reference to it is Lazy Sunday: https://youtu.be/sRhTeaa_B98?t=97 https://youtu.be/sRhTeaa_B98?t=97
- krrrh 5y ago
  It’s hard to get a definitive answer, but as a matter of law there are several states with legal “mutual combat”. One would imagine most of these cases happen on the other end of the SES scale. https://www.quora.com/Where-is-mutual-combat-legal-and-what-are-your-thoughts-on-it https://www.quora.com/Where-is-mutual-combat-legal-and-what-...
- watwut 5y ago
  That was not the only reason. The other reason was that duel was socially required in some situations. If you refused, you was really looked down at and would became sort of outcast. Everyone of relevant cast understood that. Also, they did not ended up with death all that often. There was whole process how to got there, negotiate compromise via seconds and often participants were not so eager to kill each other. The big point is to show willingness to be shoot at or something of that sort. C-span had pretty good lecture about duels in south.
ttyprintk 5y ago
The 1906/8 Olympic games included two-person pistol dueling. The French were favored and won both years.
- wfleming 5y ago
  My immediate reaction was "how?". (I presumed the organizers would not have accepted an arrangement where they expected to award silver and bronze posthumously.) Apparently they used wax bullets. Fascinating and hilarious. In 1906 it was just firing duelling pistols at dummies, which... c'mon, that's just target shooting with a twist. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_dueling https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_dueling
  - krrrh 5y ago
    I bet this piece of trivia is something competitive paintballers like to wax over after a match: “Someday Olympic non-lethal gun combat will be restored by the IOC…”
jack-bodine 5y ago
I don’t have a death wish or anything but death by duel has got to be one of the coolest ways to go.
- djohnston 5y ago
  Galois is the most legendary to go this way IMO
  - greesil 5y ago
    Way too young
  - spoonjim 5y ago
    I feel so bad for him. He clearly had so many better things to do than die for the “honor” of a woman he wasn’t even sleeping with but somehow ended up in that situation.
    - apengwin 5y ago
      19th century simping
- koolba 5y ago
  Not as cool as winning and then one day becoming President of the United States though.
- gerdesj 5y ago
  The firearms available when duelling was a thing were not very accurate. Assuming the 20 paces thing at say two feet to a pace => 80 feet range. Your target is moving, it's early in the morning and you are still dealing with a killer hangover or still pissed - that's why you are in this stupid duel. To maximise your chances you turn side on, to minimise your profile and support your aim. You might consider crouching but that was probably bad form. You might consider using your other hand to steady your aim but that was probably bad form and crucially makes you a bigger target because you will be forced to stand square on. I can't be bothered to look up what gravity will do to the trajectory of a ball from a flintlock and the like but I suspect the muzzle velocity wasn't too impressive and 80' or 25m is far enough to make the ball drop a bit vertically. If you get hit, it will almost certainly be in the lower abdomen or leg. A soldier would know to aim a bit higher to try and get a upper torso hit. Your chest is a bigger target than anything else on you thanks to your lungs. So a ball of very hot lead and other metals about 3/4" (?) across enters your side at about stomach level or at lower intestine level. The trauma is probably not enough to kill you outright. Modern firearms can often kill you with shock waves running up blood vessels to the heart and other organs. This thing hurts rather a lot and causes a lot of bleeding. You are being poisoned by the metals. Antibiotics have not been invented. Blood/fluid loss, shock, infection. Take your pick. I'm sure a doctor could get really creative here. The general idea of a duel was to involve a lot of danger but honour could still be satisfied if everyone missed. Shooting someone at that range is very hard. It obviously happened but probably not as often as we modern lot think. If you do get hit, you will probably die in quite a nasty, painful extended way. I'm not a doctor nor a weapons expert and have some limited knowledge of all that stuff, some of my analysis might be complete bollocks! However, hopefully I've persuaded you that being shot by an old pistol is not a nice way to go. Probably not preferable to swords either. Sword duels (foils/epees etc) used to generally run to first blood, so provided you managed to stop the other bloke from sticking your eye and one of you got some blood out of somewhere not too critical with a slash or poke then all good. Obviously, we can all imagine how a sword duel might end quite unpleasantly as well but remember that duels were about satisfying your honour and not actually killing your opponent. Killing them seems to have been considered an unfortunate side effect and not the actual goal. EDIT: Sorry, I forgot whatever the nasty side effects of having your stomach or bowels leaking into the rest of you is called - that's a good possibility if you get hit. Also, you are standing side on with your arm up so your lungs are a major likely target. A hit in the lung is a really nasty thing but I think will kill you quicker than most of the other traumas. It will obviously involve broken ribs but I'd like to know whether a flintlock of the time would be capable of penetrating a over coat plus clothes and ribs. That is a key question I think. If clothes plus ribs etc is normally capable of routinely avoiding a shot being lethal at 80' (God willing etc) then we can be a bit more sure about how duels worked. Did gents suddenly remember to wear their whale bone corset to look their best (and add a bit more armour)? Did they fill their pockets with Bibles? If your coat has generous breast and waist pockets then leather bound books with many 100 thin pages will add a lot of armour to you when you stand side on. Sadly, if your oppo gets a headshot in then you are fucked, regardless and that will probably be quick unless you are really unlucky.
dan-robertson 5y ago
See also, a recent political duel: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/last-sword-duel-1967/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/last-sword-duel-1967/
- dmoy 5y ago
  The prospect of fencing with actually sharp swords using a French grip, with that apparent level of inflexibility... on grass... is making me really anxious.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    I’m sure you would gain a lot of satisfaction from it.
  - michael1999 5y ago
    Now you understand why the lunge was considered daring, or even irresponsible, depending on the school.
- JetAlone 5y ago
  The blurb that comes with this photo doesn't make it obvious who is who, so I did a little more digging. Defferre was a member of the French Section of the Workers' International at the time (and later became a member of the socialist party in 1969) and is the Mayor of Marseille, Ribière (the one with the darker hair in the photos) is the Socialist Party Candidate for president. Absolutely fascinating.
mc32 5y ago
There is a site just across the SF border, in Daly City, over by Lake Merced (which is in SF) where there are markers for the Broderick-Terry duel[1]. The site is unremarkable, but nice and quiet[2]. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broderick%E2%80%93Terry_duel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broderick%E2%80%93Terry_duel [2]https://www.google.com/maps/place/Broderick-Terry+Duel+Site/@37.7080262,-122.4861629,17z https://www.google.com/maps/place/Broderick-Terry+Duel+Site/...
- casefields 5y ago
  That's neat. I would love to return to duels for Congress. Just look at this gerontocracy: Among congressmen 80 and over, 9 are Democrats and 2 are Republicans Among congressmen 70 and over, 57 are Democrats and 19 are Republicans Among senators 80 and over, 2 are Democrats and 3 are Republicans Among senators 70 and over, 18 are Democrats and 7 are Republicans Among senators 60 and over, 34 are Democrats and 28 are Republicans If McConnell and Schumer hate either other that much, they should have PPV duel with the proceeds to going some charity. If that's too grisly for folks maybe allow mutual combat. Remember when Biden told that voter to if he wanted to step outside and settle it? https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/10/you-wanna-go-outside-me-joe-biden-tries-fight-union-worker-after-disagreement-over https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/10/you-wanna-go-ou... Hell yeah I would've loved that.
  - Mountain_Skies 5y ago
    At those ages, they might run out of ammo before either of them hit the other.
  - betwixthewires 5y ago
    Step outside and settle it is one thing. But we don't duel anymore because it is honestly pretty messed up. There's a whole lot of perverse incentives that come to mind, and the institution created a whole host of social problems. Imagine you're drinking beer with a buddy and someone you don't like comes up, and you say "yeah that guy is a total chode." He gets wind of it, is aghast and offended, and publicly challenges you to a competition where you try to shoot each other to death. You say no, and you're now a dishonorable coward and are never getting the company of a lady again, or any position of respect or business from many of your peers. You have to say yes, and kill someone or die or get grisly wounded for life. People romanticize it, but I wouldn't want to live in a society where I have to kill people or die over petty squabbles.
voidfunc 5y ago
Dueling should be legal.
- rajacombinator 5y ago
  mandatory*. Particularly for US Senators.
  - jessaustin 5y ago
    Sen. Rand Paul's neighbor beat the piss out of him, but it wasn't a proper duel with appropriate weapons.
- cm2012 5y ago
  In practice it was an excuse for serial killers to get away with murder. Many dueling deaths were from people who would insult people, get into duels and kill folks for fun.
tanbog4 5y ago
Its not the US but the date of the last well known duel always blows my mind (from Wikipedia): 21 April 1967: The last official duel in the history of France happened between Gaston Defferre and René Ribière, both delegates at the French National Assembly. During an argument in the assembly room, Defferre said to Ribière "shut up, idiot" ("taisez-vous, abruti"). Defferre won the duel after four minutes of sword fighting, wounding his opponent twice.
- toptal 5y ago
  Footage of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ
  - hiq 5y ago
    > Le premier sang venait d'être versé. M. Ribière, pourtant, exigeait de reprendre le combat ; non pas à mort, car il pensait se marier le lendemain même, et risquer sa vie pour une insulte lancée au cours d'un débat politique n'est guère de notre temps. Translating approximately to: > The first blood had just been drawn. Mr Ribière, nevertheless, demanded the duel be resumed ; not to death, for he expected to get married just the day after, and risking one's life for an abuse thrown during a political debate is hardly fashionable.
  - newdude116 5y ago
    Hey, I did duels when I was a student: https://youtu.be/lUh5exBJXBU?t=187 https://youtu.be/lUh5exBJXBU?t=187
    - FrojoS 5y ago
      Yes, this is still tradition among some German students. My 30y old brother has several scars („Schmiss“) from it.
      - Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
        I wonder if any graduate of a German university has ever run afoul of the various American state laws requiring candidates for public office to swear that they have never fought a duel.
fallingknife 5y ago
Dueling seems like an absolutely crazy way to resolve a dispute. Until you get involved in civil litigation...
OldHand2018 5y ago
James Shield, the only person to have been a US Senator for 3 different states, challenged Abraham Lincoln to a duel after Lincoln published a scathing article about him in a local newspaper. Lincoln accepted, but before they fought they made up and became friends.
jonplackett 5y ago
That is one of the most obtrusive ‘subscribe now’ boxes I’ve seen for a while.
nicolas_t 5y ago
> For the vast majority of human history, people lived relatively short lives, with United States life expectancy first exceeding 40 years old in the 1850s. That figure didn’t reach 50 until the 1900s, and these days it’s a little under 80. This is a misunderstanding of life expectancy that I see very often in articles. The major contributor for low life expectancy was infant mortality, which due to the life expectancy being an average reduced the life expectancy by a lot. This doesn't mean however that people who lived past childhood were fated to die on average at 40 years old. And so while the risk of death during childhood was high, and risk of death for women during childbirth was high this doesn't necessarily mean that the survivors who reached adulthood had short lives. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine and often happens whenever a single number is used to describe something that's complex.
- jean_tta 5y ago
  I think this would be mostly solved by reporting the life expectancy at some other age than birth - e.g. the life expectancy at 20, thereby cutting out the effects of child mortality - or reporting the median age of death.
ramblerman 5y ago
While I do think dueling primitive and would not suggest it seriously, I can't help but feel a sense of unknown nostalgia for the reverence given to mutual respect. The risk of having to face death when you insulted another man is the polar opposite of the online world.

73 points by samclemens 5y ago

The one constant in life: Though frequently illegal, duels often avoided prosecution, possibly because the participants tended to hold positions of power, such as United States senator.

aaronbrethorst 5y ago
And don't forget, you pay the doctor in advance, treat him with civility, and have him turn around so he can have deniability.
- mattkrause 5y ago
  Very apt username (at least the first part)!
  - aaronbrethorst 5y ago
    I occasionally think about this 1990 “Got Milk” ad directed by Michael Bay and note that the identity of Alexander Hamilton’s duel partner (saying nothing of his own identity as the ten dollar founding father without a father) is no longer esoteric knowledge, but a well known fact in popular culture: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLSsswr6z9Y https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OLSsswr6z9Y
    - rriepe 5y ago
      My favorite pop culture reference to it is Lazy Sunday: https://youtu.be/sRhTeaa_B98?t=97 https://youtu.be/sRhTeaa_B98?t=97
krrrh 5y ago
It’s hard to get a definitive answer, but as a matter of law there are several states with legal “mutual combat”. One would imagine most of these cases happen on the other end of the SES scale. https://www.quora.com/Where-is-mutual-combat-legal-and-what-are-your-thoughts-on-it https://www.quora.com/Where-is-mutual-combat-legal-and-what-...
watwut 5y ago
That was not the only reason. The other reason was that duel was socially required in some situations. If you refused, you was really looked down at and would became sort of outcast. Everyone of relevant cast understood that. Also, they did not ended up with death all that often. There was whole process how to got there, negotiate compromise via seconds and often participants were not so eager to kill each other. The big point is to show willingness to be shoot at or something of that sort. C-span had pretty good lecture about duels in south.

ttyprintk 5y ago

The 1906/8 Olympic games included two-person pistol dueling. The French were favored and won both years.

wfleming 5y ago
My immediate reaction was "how?". (I presumed the organizers would not have accepted an arrangement where they expected to award silver and bronze posthumously.) Apparently they used wax bullets. Fascinating and hilarious. In 1906 it was just firing duelling pistols at dummies, which... c'mon, that's just target shooting with a twist. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_dueling https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_dueling
- krrrh 5y ago
  I bet this piece of trivia is something competitive paintballers like to wax over after a match: “Someday Olympic non-lethal gun combat will be restored by the IOC…”

jack-bodine 5y ago

I don’t have a death wish or anything but death by duel has got to be one of the coolest ways to go.

djohnston 5y ago
Galois is the most legendary to go this way IMO
- greesil 5y ago
  Way too young
- spoonjim 5y ago
  I feel so bad for him. He clearly had so many better things to do than die for the “honor” of a woman he wasn’t even sleeping with but somehow ended up in that situation.
  - apengwin 5y ago
    19th century simping
koolba 5y ago
Not as cool as winning and then one day becoming President of the United States though.
gerdesj 5y ago
The firearms available when duelling was a thing were not very accurate. Assuming the 20 paces thing at say two feet to a pace => 80 feet range. Your target is moving, it's early in the morning and you are still dealing with a killer hangover or still pissed - that's why you are in this stupid duel. To maximise your chances you turn side on, to minimise your profile and support your aim. You might consider crouching but that was probably bad form. You might consider using your other hand to steady your aim but that was probably bad form and crucially makes you a bigger target because you will be forced to stand square on. I can't be bothered to look up what gravity will do to the trajectory of a ball from a flintlock and the like but I suspect the muzzle velocity wasn't too impressive and 80' or 25m is far enough to make the ball drop a bit vertically. If you get hit, it will almost certainly be in the lower abdomen or leg. A soldier would know to aim a bit higher to try and get a upper torso hit. Your chest is a bigger target than anything else on you thanks to your lungs. So a ball of very hot lead and other metals about 3/4" (?) across enters your side at about stomach level or at lower intestine level. The trauma is probably not enough to kill you outright. Modern firearms can often kill you with shock waves running up blood vessels to the heart and other organs. This thing hurts rather a lot and causes a lot of bleeding. You are being poisoned by the metals. Antibiotics have not been invented. Blood/fluid loss, shock, infection. Take your pick. I'm sure a doctor could get really creative here. The general idea of a duel was to involve a lot of danger but honour could still be satisfied if everyone missed. Shooting someone at that range is very hard. It obviously happened but probably not as often as we modern lot think. If you do get hit, you will probably die in quite a nasty, painful extended way. I'm not a doctor nor a weapons expert and have some limited knowledge of all that stuff, some of my analysis might be complete bollocks! However, hopefully I've persuaded you that being shot by an old pistol is not a nice way to go. Probably not preferable to swords either. Sword duels (foils/epees etc) used to generally run to first blood, so provided you managed to stop the other bloke from sticking your eye and one of you got some blood out of somewhere not too critical with a slash or poke then all good. Obviously, we can all imagine how a sword duel might end quite unpleasantly as well but remember that duels were about satisfying your honour and not actually killing your opponent. Killing them seems to have been considered an unfortunate side effect and not the actual goal. EDIT: Sorry, I forgot whatever the nasty side effects of having your stomach or bowels leaking into the rest of you is called - that's a good possibility if you get hit. Also, you are standing side on with your arm up so your lungs are a major likely target. A hit in the lung is a really nasty thing but I think will kill you quicker than most of the other traumas. It will obviously involve broken ribs but I'd like to know whether a flintlock of the time would be capable of penetrating a over coat plus clothes and ribs. That is a key question I think. If clothes plus ribs etc is normally capable of routinely avoiding a shot being lethal at 80' (God willing etc) then we can be a bit more sure about how duels worked. Did gents suddenly remember to wear their whale bone corset to look their best (and add a bit more armour)? Did they fill their pockets with Bibles? If your coat has generous breast and waist pockets then leather bound books with many 100 thin pages will add a lot of armour to you when you stand side on. Sadly, if your oppo gets a headshot in then you are fucked, regardless and that will probably be quick unless you are really unlucky.

dan-robertson 5y ago

See also, a recent political duel: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/last-sword-duel-1967/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/last-sword-duel-1967/

dmoy 5y ago
The prospect of fencing with actually sharp swords using a French grip, with that apparent level of inflexibility... on grass... is making me really anxious.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  I’m sure you would gain a lot of satisfaction from it.
- michael1999 5y ago
  Now you understand why the lunge was considered daring, or even irresponsible, depending on the school.
JetAlone 5y ago
The blurb that comes with this photo doesn't make it obvious who is who, so I did a little more digging. Defferre was a member of the French Section of the Workers' International at the time (and later became a member of the socialist party in 1969) and is the Mayor of Marseille, Ribière (the one with the darker hair in the photos) is the Socialist Party Candidate for president. Absolutely fascinating.

mc32 5y ago

There is a site just across the SF border, in Daly City, over by Lake Merced (which is in SF) where there are markers for the Broderick-Terry duel[1]. The site is unremarkable, but nice and quiet[2]. [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broderick%E2%80%93Terry_duel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broderick%E2%80%93Terry_duel [2]https://www.google.com/maps/place/Broderick-Terry+Duel+Site/@37.7080262,-122.4861629,17z https://www.google.com/maps/place/Broderick-Terry+Duel+Site/...

casefields 5y ago
That's neat. I would love to return to duels for Congress. Just look at this gerontocracy: Among congressmen 80 and over, 9 are Democrats and 2 are Republicans Among congressmen 70 and over, 57 are Democrats and 19 are Republicans Among senators 80 and over, 2 are Democrats and 3 are Republicans Among senators 70 and over, 18 are Democrats and 7 are Republicans Among senators 60 and over, 34 are Democrats and 28 are Republicans If McConnell and Schumer hate either other that much, they should have PPV duel with the proceeds to going some charity. If that's too grisly for folks maybe allow mutual combat. Remember when Biden told that voter to if he wanted to step outside and settle it? https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/10/you-wanna-go-outside-me-joe-biden-tries-fight-union-worker-after-disagreement-over https://www.commondreams.org/news/2020/03/10/you-wanna-go-ou... Hell yeah I would've loved that.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  At those ages, they might run out of ammo before either of them hit the other.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  Step outside and settle it is one thing. But we don't duel anymore because it is honestly pretty messed up. There's a whole lot of perverse incentives that come to mind, and the institution created a whole host of social problems. Imagine you're drinking beer with a buddy and someone you don't like comes up, and you say "yeah that guy is a total chode." He gets wind of it, is aghast and offended, and publicly challenges you to a competition where you try to shoot each other to death. You say no, and you're now a dishonorable coward and are never getting the company of a lady again, or any position of respect or business from many of your peers. You have to say yes, and kill someone or die or get grisly wounded for life. People romanticize it, but I wouldn't want to live in a society where I have to kill people or die over petty squabbles.

voidfunc 5y ago

Dueling should be legal.

rajacombinator 5y ago
mandatory*. Particularly for US Senators.
- jessaustin 5y ago
  Sen. Rand Paul's neighbor beat the piss out of him, but it wasn't a proper duel with appropriate weapons.
cm2012 5y ago
In practice it was an excuse for serial killers to get away with murder. Many dueling deaths were from people who would insult people, get into duels and kill folks for fun.

tanbog4 5y ago

Its not the US but the date of the last well known duel always blows my mind (from Wikipedia): 21 April 1967: The last official duel in the history of France happened between Gaston Defferre and René Ribière, both delegates at the French National Assembly. During an argument in the assembly room, Defferre said to Ribière "shut up, idiot" ("taisez-vous, abruti"). Defferre won the duel after four minutes of sword fighting, wounding his opponent twice.

toptal 5y ago
Footage of it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e68nuAcSuWQ
- hiq 5y ago
  > Le premier sang venait d'être versé. M. Ribière, pourtant, exigeait de reprendre le combat ; non pas à mort, car il pensait se marier le lendemain même, et risquer sa vie pour une insulte lancée au cours d'un débat politique n'est guère de notre temps. Translating approximately to: > The first blood had just been drawn. Mr Ribière, nevertheless, demanded the duel be resumed ; not to death, for he expected to get married just the day after, and risking one's life for an abuse thrown during a political debate is hardly fashionable.
- newdude116 5y ago
  Hey, I did duels when I was a student: https://youtu.be/lUh5exBJXBU?t=187 https://youtu.be/lUh5exBJXBU?t=187
  - FrojoS 5y ago
    Yes, this is still tradition among some German students. My 30y old brother has several scars („Schmiss“) from it.
    - Ichthypresbyter 5y ago
      I wonder if any graduate of a German university has ever run afoul of the various American state laws requiring candidates for public office to swear that they have never fought a duel.

fallingknife 5y ago

Dueling seems like an absolutely crazy way to resolve a dispute. Until you get involved in civil litigation...

OldHand2018 5y ago

James Shield, the only person to have been a US Senator for 3 different states, challenged Abraham Lincoln to a duel after Lincoln published a scathing article about him in a local newspaper. Lincoln accepted, but before they fought they made up and became friends.

jonplackett 5y ago

That is one of the most obtrusive ‘subscribe now’ boxes I’ve seen for a while.

nicolas_t 5y ago

> For the vast majority of human history, people lived relatively short lives, with United States life expectancy first exceeding 40 years old in the 1850s. That figure didn’t reach 50 until the 1900s, and these days it’s a little under 80. This is a misunderstanding of life expectancy that I see very often in articles. The major contributor for low life expectancy was infant mortality, which due to the life expectancy being an average reduced the life expectancy by a lot. This doesn't mean however that people who lived past childhood were fated to die on average at 40 years old. And so while the risk of death during childhood was high, and risk of death for women during childbirth was high this doesn't necessarily mean that the survivors who reached adulthood had short lives. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine and often happens whenever a single number is used to describe something that's complex.

jean_tta 5y ago
I think this would be mostly solved by reporting the life expectancy at some other age than birth - e.g. the life expectancy at 20, thereby cutting out the effects of child mortality - or reporting the median age of death.

ramblerman 5y ago

While I do think dueling primitive and would not suggest it seriously, I can't help but feel a sense of unknown nostalgia for the reverence given to mutual respect. The risk of having to face death when you insulted another man is the polar opposite of the online world.