9 ms·

Who was it again that has the most effective intelligence community and military in the world?

by david-cako 5y ago

ticviking 5y ago
Pound for pound I'd say Israel. In absolute terms I'm pretty sure China has us at sea and in cyber so... Not the US
- boringg 5y ago
  Pretty sure china doesn't have the oceans - might want to check up on your stats.
  - bob_theslob646 5y ago
    Not to be rude but I'm pretty sure you need to check up on your stats. The Chinese do have the oceans. >Citing the Office of Naval Intelligence, a Congressional Research Service report from March notes that the People’s Liberation Army Navy, or PLAN, was slated to have 360 battle force ships by the end of 2020, dwarfing the U.S. fleet of 297 ships. [1](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2021/04/12/chinas-navy-has-more-ships-than-the-us-does-that-matter/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2021/04/12/chinas-n...)
    - edholland 5y ago
      without significant aircraft carrier fleet i'm not sure china has dominant control of any seas, despite best efforts in south china seas [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme#Current_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_progr...)
      - bob_theslob646 5y ago
        https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/05/china/china-world-biggest-navy-intl-hnk-ml-dst/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/05/china/china-world-biggest-nav... I am not sure what your point is. By number of ships, they are the biggest. I have no idea how important aircraft carrier fleet is.
        pbourke 5y ago
        > I have no idea how important aircraft carrier fleet is. It’s the most important part of a modern blue water navy and has been since WW2. The US also has a world-dominating submarine fleet.
        boringg 5y ago
        Biggest by number, not by capability or weight. There are significant differences as a result. I.e. who cares if you have the most swordsmen on the planet, if you in a gunfight.
    - objectivetruth 5y ago
      Your own link points out that they don't have allied support nor the capability to do sustained blue-water operations, and that the US retains naval dominance.
    - throwaway20148 5y ago
      Bath Iron Works is hiring people on the spot right now. They are probably going to hire 3k people in the next year. I imagine this is happening at other shipyards around the country. Expect those ship numbers to be revised upwards.
    - RhodoGSA 5y ago
      Air Craft carriers and jets were proven in WW2 to be the big differentiator. US took note and has more than the entire world combined. 'Battle force ships' is a very loose term and your source only includes navy resources. You forget we have Army, Air force, Marines and not to forget coast guard that all have their own watercraft. Also, don't know if you've been seeing some of the new SWISS ships the US have been developing. Very small, hyper fast ships with a crew of 6 or less with a crazy amount of firepower in terms of AA, 50 cal, even torpedos. Those aren't categorized as 'Battle Force Ships'. Also, despite the huge waste that is inherent in it - no one has bases like the US does. We have forward operating bases all over the middle east, geographically separated units all over east europe, africa, asian pacific, and military bases all over europe and every key point of the united states. Nasa never quite got launches down but we do have some of the most advanced satellite, imagery and other military instruments. look up number of military spacecraft by country. Whether it's moral or not is an entirely different question, but there is a reason the international monetary fund has a weight 44% USD; It's not because all the other countries like us that's for sure.
      - totoglazer 5y ago
        Can’t find anything about the SWISS ships but curious to learn more, if you could provide a link.
        RhodoGSA 5y ago
        opps - it's SWCC*. Can't seem to find the heavier version, but it was based on the SOC-R. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Craft_%E2%80%93_Riverine_(SOC-R) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Craft_%E2%8...
    - boringg 5y ago
      I don't dispute the ability for China to produce more ships than the US or have more ships. By tonnage they are still less than half the size of the the US fleet and they aren't in control of the oceans. I'm not saying that won't change I am merely flagging OP statements as inaccurate. Don't worry I don't take your comments as rude.
ruskimir 5y ago
We should use it and shut down Russian pipelines. The Russian government is supporting and harboring DarkSide. It's possible the state directed this attack through them for plausible deniability.
mberger 5y ago
Why are you bringing Israel into this?
dannyw 5y ago
In terms of actual execution, definitely not America!
stolen_biscuit 5y ago
Intelligence I'd say probably Russia right? They've made America look quite incompetent the past decade or so. Military I'd say America although I don't think SEAL team 6 is going to be hunting down these attackers
- ruskimir 5y ago
  Russia is fair game now. Pipeline for a pipeline. We should take one of theirs offline as retaliation.
  - sidlls 5y ago
    No, one isn’t enough. At least two or three.
- JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
  > I don't think SEAL team 6 is going to be hunting down these attackers It would certainly reduce their enthusiasm for hacking.
  - ackbar03 5y ago
    Its just some 400 pound hacker in his mom's basement. Seems like overkill
- peteretep 5y ago
  > They've made America look quite incompetent the past decade or so This itself is American propoganda; the strategy is to be absolutely all over your opponents, knowing that they can't complain about it for fear of looking weak, while complaining loudly about how their meagre attempts are the end of the world, getting public and Congressional support for more spending. Before the Snowden leaks, someone suggesting the US had the SIGINT capacities they actually did have would have be laughed out of serious circles as a crank, and you better believe they haven't been sat still over the 8 years since.
  - stolen_biscuit 5y ago
neartheplain 5y ago
I hope you're not talking about the CIA, whose network of agents in China (to pick one example) was rounded up and killed due to either shoddy IT work or a mole in the Agency. Either possiblity reflects poorly on the American intelligence community: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-espionage-idUSKCN18G0UM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-espionage-idUSK... >Investigators remain divided over whether there was a spy within the Central Intelligence Agency who betrayed the sources or whether the Chinese hacked the CIA’s covert communications system, the newspaper reported, citing current and former U.S. officials. >The Chinese killed at least a dozen people providing information to the CIA from 2010 through 2012, dismantling a network that was years in the making, the newspaper reported. >One was shot and killed in front of a government building in China, three officials told the Times, saying that was designed as a message to others about working with Washington.
- knowaveragejoe 5y ago
  This isn't a counter-argument against the person you're replying to, though. One can pick from numerous examples of the inverse(though the US doesn't round them up & disappear them, they go through the court system)
  - johnisgood 5y ago
    > though the US doesn't round them up & disappear them, they go through the court system Yeah, unless you are suspected for terrorism. I recommend the movie named The Mauritanian. > Mohamedou Ould Slahi (Arabic: محمدو ولد الصلاحي‎) (born December 21, 1970) is a Mauritanian man who was detained at Guantánamo Bay detention camp without charge from 2002 until his release on October 17, 2016. > The book, Guantánamo Diary, was published in January 2015. It is the first work by a still-imprisoned detainee at Guantánamo. It provides details of Slahi's harsh interrogations and torture, including being "force-fed seawater, sexually molested, subjected to a mock execution and repeatedly beaten, kicked and smashed across the face, all spiced with threats that his mother will be brought to Guantánamo and gang-raped.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamedou_Ould_Slahi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamedou_Ould_Slahi
SavantIdiot 5y ago
The effectiveness of the CIA (or government) depends on the narrative of the author. Like the immigrant paradox: are they lazy or are they taking your jobs? which is it?

Who was it again that has the most effective intelligence community and military in the world?

ticviking 5y ago

Pound for pound I'd say Israel. In absolute terms I'm pretty sure China has us at sea and in cyber so... Not the US

boringg 5y ago
Pretty sure china doesn't have the oceans - might want to check up on your stats.
- bob_theslob646 5y ago
  Not to be rude but I'm pretty sure you need to check up on your stats. The Chinese do have the oceans. >Citing the Office of Naval Intelligence, a Congressional Research Service report from March notes that the People’s Liberation Army Navy, or PLAN, was slated to have 360 battle force ships by the end of 2020, dwarfing the U.S. fleet of 297 ships. [1](https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2021/04/12/chinas-navy-has-more-ships-than-the-us-does-that-matter/ https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2021/04/12/chinas-n...)
  - edholland 5y ago
    without significant aircraft carrier fleet i'm not sure china has dominant control of any seas, despite best efforts in south china seas [1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_programme#Current_status https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_aircraft_carrier_progr...)
    - bob_theslob646 5y ago
      https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/05/china/china-world-biggest-navy-intl-hnk-ml-dst/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/05/china/china-world-biggest-nav... I am not sure what your point is. By number of ships, they are the biggest. I have no idea how important aircraft carrier fleet is.
      - pbourke 5y ago
        > I have no idea how important aircraft carrier fleet is. It’s the most important part of a modern blue water navy and has been since WW2. The US also has a world-dominating submarine fleet.
      - boringg 5y ago
        Biggest by number, not by capability or weight. There are significant differences as a result. I.e. who cares if you have the most swordsmen on the planet, if you in a gunfight.
  - objectivetruth 5y ago
    Your own link points out that they don't have allied support nor the capability to do sustained blue-water operations, and that the US retains naval dominance.
  - throwaway20148 5y ago
    Bath Iron Works is hiring people on the spot right now. They are probably going to hire 3k people in the next year. I imagine this is happening at other shipyards around the country. Expect those ship numbers to be revised upwards.
  - RhodoGSA 5y ago
    Air Craft carriers and jets were proven in WW2 to be the big differentiator. US took note and has more than the entire world combined. 'Battle force ships' is a very loose term and your source only includes navy resources. You forget we have Army, Air force, Marines and not to forget coast guard that all have their own watercraft. Also, don't know if you've been seeing some of the new SWISS ships the US have been developing. Very small, hyper fast ships with a crew of 6 or less with a crazy amount of firepower in terms of AA, 50 cal, even torpedos. Those aren't categorized as 'Battle Force Ships'. Also, despite the huge waste that is inherent in it - no one has bases like the US does. We have forward operating bases all over the middle east, geographically separated units all over east europe, africa, asian pacific, and military bases all over europe and every key point of the united states. Nasa never quite got launches down but we do have some of the most advanced satellite, imagery and other military instruments. look up number of military spacecraft by country. Whether it's moral or not is an entirely different question, but there is a reason the international monetary fund has a weight 44% USD; It's not because all the other countries like us that's for sure.
    - totoglazer 5y ago
      Can’t find anything about the SWISS ships but curious to learn more, if you could provide a link.
      - RhodoGSA 5y ago
        opps - it's SWCC*. Can't seem to find the heavier version, but it was based on the SOC-R. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Craft_%E2%80%93_Riverine_(SOC-R) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Craft_%E2%8...
  - boringg 5y ago
    I don't dispute the ability for China to produce more ships than the US or have more ships. By tonnage they are still less than half the size of the the US fleet and they aren't in control of the oceans. I'm not saying that won't change I am merely flagging OP statements as inaccurate. Don't worry I don't take your comments as rude.

ruskimir 5y ago

We should use it and shut down Russian pipelines. The Russian government is supporting and harboring DarkSide. It's possible the state directed this attack through them for plausible deniability.

mberger 5y ago

Why are you bringing Israel into this?

dannyw 5y ago

In terms of actual execution, definitely not America!

stolen_biscuit 5y ago

Intelligence I'd say probably Russia right? They've made America look quite incompetent the past decade or so. Military I'd say America although I don't think SEAL team 6 is going to be hunting down these attackers

ruskimir 5y ago
Russia is fair game now. Pipeline for a pipeline. We should take one of theirs offline as retaliation.
- sidlls 5y ago
  No, one isn’t enough. At least two or three.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
> I don't think SEAL team 6 is going to be hunting down these attackers It would certainly reduce their enthusiasm for hacking.
- ackbar03 5y ago
  Its just some 400 pound hacker in his mom's basement. Seems like overkill
peteretep 5y ago
> They've made America look quite incompetent the past decade or so This itself is American propoganda; the strategy is to be absolutely all over your opponents, knowing that they can't complain about it for fear of looking weak, while complaining loudly about how their meagre attempts are the end of the world, getting public and Congressional support for more spending. Before the Snowden leaks, someone suggesting the US had the SIGINT capacities they actually did have would have be laughed out of serious circles as a crank, and you better believe they haven't been sat still over the 8 years since.
- stolen_biscuit 5y ago

neartheplain 5y ago

I hope you're not talking about the CIA, whose network of agents in China (to pick one example) was rounded up and killed due to either shoddy IT work or a mole in the Agency. Either possiblity reflects poorly on the American intelligence community: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-espionage-idUSKCN18G0UM https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-espionage-idUSK... >Investigators remain divided over whether there was a spy within the Central Intelligence Agency who betrayed the sources or whether the Chinese hacked the CIA’s covert communications system, the newspaper reported, citing current and former U.S. officials. >The Chinese killed at least a dozen people providing information to the CIA from 2010 through 2012, dismantling a network that was years in the making, the newspaper reported. >One was shot and killed in front of a government building in China, three officials told the Times, saying that was designed as a message to others about working with Washington.

knowaveragejoe 5y ago
This isn't a counter-argument against the person you're replying to, though. One can pick from numerous examples of the inverse(though the US doesn't round them up & disappear them, they go through the court system)
- johnisgood 5y ago
  > though the US doesn't round them up & disappear them, they go through the court system Yeah, unless you are suspected for terrorism. I recommend the movie named The Mauritanian. > Mohamedou Ould Slahi (Arabic: محمدو ولد الصلاحي‎) (born December 21, 1970) is a Mauritanian man who was detained at Guantánamo Bay detention camp without charge from 2002 until his release on October 17, 2016. > The book, Guantánamo Diary, was published in January 2015. It is the first work by a still-imprisoned detainee at Guantánamo. It provides details of Slahi's harsh interrogations and torture, including being "force-fed seawater, sexually molested, subjected to a mock execution and repeatedly beaten, kicked and smashed across the face, all spiced with threats that his mother will be brought to Guantánamo and gang-raped.[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamedou_Ould_Slahi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamedou_Ould_Slahi

SavantIdiot 5y ago

The effectiveness of the CIA (or government) depends on the narrative of the author. Like the immigrant paradox: are they lazy or are they taking your jobs? which is it?