6 ms·

Stop setting standards for free that those of us with other priorities can't meet. If you must code, work on something other than work.

bpodgursky 5y ago
Counterpoint: don't tell me what to do.
- eggsmediumrare 5y ago
  You're free to do what you want, but working for free doesn't just hurt you. It hurts your coworkers and the industry as a whole.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    Actually working long hours as a developer in my 20s got me a ton of extra equity and skills which set me up very comfortably professionally and financially. I'm not recommending flipping burgers for free overtime, but it's ludicrous to claim that working hard doesn't pay dividends in professional high-skill fields for fair employers.
    - eggsmediumrare 5y ago
      That's fine, but again... Why do work that makes money for someone else for free? You can achieve the same thing by working on your own stuff. I'm also a well paid software developer, but I spent my 20s recording albums, learning to garden, staying fit, and generally not spending my time making money for someone else for free.
      - bpodgursky 5y ago
        Because as I got better, I got raises and got more equity. That's the point of working for a startup; the more you put in, the more you get out. (obviously you need to work for a startup which reciprocates. but most do).
        runarberg 5y ago
        Just be aware of all the blood that has been spilled in labor struggles around the world in the past and present (as we speak people are dying at the hands of the Colombian state authorities for this struggle). People fought hard for our rights to free time. People died for this right. If your work makes your company more money, they should pay you. They shouldn’t reward your hard work with something vague like job prospects and opportunities, no they should pay you overtime with money. If you work more then 40 hours a week, you should get your extra hours payed in overtime (not less then 90% of your base wage). If they don’t want to give you that, you are being exploited by your bosses. Do know that you can practice your skills and get your fair share for your work. Don’t let anyone exploit your work. You’re worth more than that. Solidarity.
        bpodgursky 5y ago
        I'm a software engineer that makes multiple of six figures. I know how to take care of my own financial prospects. I don't need your patronization or protection.
        eggsmediumrare 5y ago
        Sounds like you got yours.
        bpodgursky 5y ago
        If you want to make an argument about inequality, make that one. It would be more effective than going around trying to convince software engineers they are chumps for working hard.
        eggsmediumrare 5y ago
        My entire argument is don't work for free. Your experience (if equity was involved, also a lot of luck) does not represent reality for the vast majority of devs who work lots of overtime and are never compensated for it... Some voluntarily, like yourself, and others who now have to row to the unnecessary pace they set.
      - refurb 5y ago
        It sounds like your argument boils down to “stop doing things I wouldn’t do?”
refurb 5y ago
Tall poppy syndrome. Cut down the tall ones because they create problems for the shorter ones. Maybe fix your company culture to create norms? If some exceeds those norms so what?
- adamredwoods 5y ago
  In the past I've been told "Well, [name] did it that way, why can't you?". Which is also a form of management deflection, where they don't want to find more resources or admit the process is broken, so they deflect the burden back onto the employee.
- runarberg 5y ago
  Not applicable. You are conflating a bottom-up problem with a top-down problem. The labor struggle is one that is fought bottom-up. Unless we stand united, the bosses hold all the cards. A single worker has no power to fix their companies culture, but a united workforce does. This is not applicable to the tall poppy syndrome at all. In fact if you want to find a silly analogy, call it the weak link problem. An almost united workforce will get exploited through the few that aren’t.
  - refurb 5y ago
    And here is the issue with US labor unions. In the name of solidarity you will not: 1) do more work, 2) work more hours, 3) make your job more efficient, etc.
    - runarberg 5y ago
      I don’t know where you get (3) no more efficient jobs, but (1) and (2) is actually a good thing. If more work and more hours make your bosses more money, they should pay you more, if they don’t, this work is wasted on making your bosses more money and cheapens the value of the work for the rest of us. If you realize this and stop working overtime, that is also a good thing. More time with your family, at your local chess club, the pub, or in your personal code repos. I think the myth of (3) unions stagnate job efficiency is a result of bad union practices (I don’t know of examples but I’m sure there are plenty) then of solidarity. There is nothing inherent about a union that will make job efficiency stagnate.

bpodgursky 5y ago

Counterpoint: don't tell me what to do.

eggsmediumrare 5y ago
You're free to do what you want, but working for free doesn't just hurt you. It hurts your coworkers and the industry as a whole.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Actually working long hours as a developer in my 20s got me a ton of extra equity and skills which set me up very comfortably professionally and financially. I'm not recommending flipping burgers for free overtime, but it's ludicrous to claim that working hard doesn't pay dividends in professional high-skill fields for fair employers.
  - eggsmediumrare 5y ago
    That's fine, but again... Why do work that makes money for someone else for free? You can achieve the same thing by working on your own stuff. I'm also a well paid software developer, but I spent my 20s recording albums, learning to garden, staying fit, and generally not spending my time making money for someone else for free.
    - bpodgursky 5y ago
      Because as I got better, I got raises and got more equity. That's the point of working for a startup; the more you put in, the more you get out. (obviously you need to work for a startup which reciprocates. but most do).
      - runarberg 5y ago
        Just be aware of all the blood that has been spilled in labor struggles around the world in the past and present (as we speak people are dying at the hands of the Colombian state authorities for this struggle). People fought hard for our rights to free time. People died for this right. If your work makes your company more money, they should pay you. They shouldn’t reward your hard work with something vague like job prospects and opportunities, no they should pay you overtime with money. If you work more then 40 hours a week, you should get your extra hours payed in overtime (not less then 90% of your base wage). If they don’t want to give you that, you are being exploited by your bosses. Do know that you can practice your skills and get your fair share for your work. Don’t let anyone exploit your work. You’re worth more than that. Solidarity.
        bpodgursky 5y ago
        I'm a software engineer that makes multiple of six figures. I know how to take care of my own financial prospects. I don't need your patronization or protection.
        eggsmediumrare 5y ago
        Sounds like you got yours.
        bpodgursky 5y ago
        If you want to make an argument about inequality, make that one. It would be more effective than going around trying to convince software engineers they are chumps for working hard.
        eggsmediumrare 5y ago
        My entire argument is don't work for free. Your experience (if equity was involved, also a lot of luck) does not represent reality for the vast majority of devs who work lots of overtime and are never compensated for it... Some voluntarily, like yourself, and others who now have to row to the unnecessary pace they set.
    - refurb 5y ago
      It sounds like your argument boils down to “stop doing things I wouldn’t do?”

refurb 5y ago

Tall poppy syndrome. Cut down the tall ones because they create problems for the shorter ones. Maybe fix your company culture to create norms? If some exceeds those norms so what?

adamredwoods 5y ago
In the past I've been told "Well, [name] did it that way, why can't you?". Which is also a form of management deflection, where they don't want to find more resources or admit the process is broken, so they deflect the burden back onto the employee.
runarberg 5y ago
Not applicable. You are conflating a bottom-up problem with a top-down problem. The labor struggle is one that is fought bottom-up. Unless we stand united, the bosses hold all the cards. A single worker has no power to fix their companies culture, but a united workforce does. This is not applicable to the tall poppy syndrome at all. In fact if you want to find a silly analogy, call it the weak link problem. An almost united workforce will get exploited through the few that aren’t.
- refurb 5y ago
  And here is the issue with US labor unions. In the name of solidarity you will not: 1) do more work, 2) work more hours, 3) make your job more efficient, etc.
  - runarberg 5y ago
    I don’t know where you get (3) no more efficient jobs, but (1) and (2) is actually a good thing. If more work and more hours make your bosses more money, they should pay you more, if they don’t, this work is wasted on making your bosses more money and cheapens the value of the work for the rest of us. If you realize this and stop working overtime, that is also a good thing. More time with your family, at your local chess club, the pub, or in your personal code repos. I think the myth of (3) unions stagnate job efficiency is a result of bad union practices (I don’t know of examples but I’m sure there are plenty) then of solidarity. There is nothing inherent about a union that will make job efficiency stagnate.