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I am sure there are instances. I can't really speak for everyone and generalize for an entire management class, but in our company, it does not appear to be jus

I am sure there are instances. I can't really speak for everyone and generalize for an entire management class, but in our company, it does not appear to be just posturing for managers and middle managers. Getting someone for 15 to 30 minute window can sometimes be rather hard. I see my manager in and out of meetings all day ( some are pointless so he can do some of his actual work ), some are a shit show where he needs to actively participate just to keep things afloat, some are something in between. I do not know if he is an exception, but buddy that just got promoted said she is having the same issue. Metric ton of stuff to do and no time do it in. Doing more after 6 or w/e your 'end time' is seems common here. And I had a taste of something similar myself. Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? If you want to deliver, something has got to give..

sirmoveon 6y ago
Just because they are in management doesn't mean they are outside of the scope of an underling.
pmiller2 6y ago
> Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? Obviously, this project wasn't important enough to be given to you with enough time to get it done. Deadlines are often artificial, and this is probably what it was. In the absence of any specifics, I'd say push back on the deadline, negotiate for what you need to deliver something acceptable within a reasonable time, and don't kill yourself for it. If you do kill yourself for this one project, that just sets an expectation for next time that you don't want to have set.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  I've worked with a lot of environments before where these deadlines aren't artificial. Usually these are projects dictated and agreed to by non-technical staff, then handed to technical staff to figure out. I assumed they were artificial, then I look at official signed contracts with deliverables and dates and die a bit inside. "We said we'd give them X, Y, Z by A for $N. Let's see how close we can get to it." Is not abnormal from my experience with major clients as well. I work in R&D so there is usually an expectation of delays and failures but in this world, the client has an idea of what they want and an upper budget if what they'll spend. People try and feel this out to get as close to their budget as possible and as little as the client with agree to for that budget. Actual budgeting based on requirements and planning doesn't happen, you simply grab the opportunity and run with it. Yes, much of R&D is complete shit show.
  - galtwho 6y ago
    not your problem if someone signed contracts with made up dates and did not allocate resource to meet those dates. if dates can't be changed, you push back and ask for more resources to be hired. As an analogy, a house can be painted by 1 guy over 10 days or 10 guys in 1-2 days.
    - Aeolun 6y ago
      But 9 women cannot give birth in 1 month. You cannot always just slap more resources on a task to get it done on time. Something that a lot of management does not seem to understand.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    Sure, there are such a thing as real deadlines. Regulatory deadlines are one example. Contractual deadlines with penalty clauses can be another. But, the type of deadline you point out (we said we'd give them $STUFF by $DATE for $PRICE) is often flexible, if not artificial. For instance, maybe you can work out a schedule where by $DATE, you deliver $SUBSET_OF_STUFF for $LOWER_PRICE, while continuing to build out features to satisfy the original request, ending up delivering $STUFF for $PRICE. Admittedly, this can be tricky. But, it can be done. I've done it before. Once a client has already agreed to a deal, they're generally inclined to stay with you, provided you're working in good faith with them. This can be somewhat of a sunk cost mentality, but it doesn't really matter as long as you're not taking advantage of that to soak them for cash. I guess the moral of the story is that any contract is amendable and re-negotiable, if you approach it right. If it's not possible to deliver by $DATE without killing yourself and your team, then it's time to consider re-negotiating. And, as you said, in the real world, delays happen; clients may be willing to accept some small delays. Even regulatory deadlines can sometimes be a little flexible, but that's a whole higher level of negotiation, and government agencies sometimes don't have the discretion to delay enforcement of new regulations, or the incentive to work with you to get you into compliance. In that case, the choice comes down to either a one-time push to deliver what's needed (and, you should be explicit that it is a one-time push), or temporarily eating the fines while delivering on a realistic schedule. I've never been in this type of situation, but I have dealt with government agencies before, and it can be a pain.
theshrike79 6y ago
> Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? Reply with this: “Poor planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine.” ― Bob Carter
- jhrozek 6y ago
  Genuinely curious: What do you think would be the outcome of this reply? In my previous team, it would have been "yeah I'm sorry, but there is a fire, this customer is paying us XYZ and threating to take their bussiness elsewhere, ...". Saying "no" would at best give you some additional resources. (Note that I did say "previous" team and the reason this kept happening is precisely why that team is no longer my current one)
  - theshrike79 6y ago
    If there really is a fire, they should be paying "put out fire in a hurry" -rates. Especially if the hurry was caused by someone else up the chain not doing their job properly. If a problem needs solved by end of week and it takes at least 3 weeks to do properly, you document what you can do within normal office hours by the deadline and ask if that's enough. If not, then they either need to approve overtime or extra resources. There's exactly zero chance I'm going to be using my free time to fix someone else's fuckup without proper compensation.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
Tabular-Iceberg 6y ago
I see the same thing. Granted as an individual contributor I'm only privy to a small fraction of meetings, so it may be not be representative. But they usually start with higher-ups arriving late, groaning about back-to-back meetings, and if we manage to settle the matter before the allotted time, they usually pad the rest of the session with more speculative discussions not on the agenda, ensuring it will be back-to-back with the next one as well. Who would be afraid of having to sit and twiddle their thumbs for half an hour waiting for the next meeting, if not someone desperate to uphold an image of being an over-worker?

sirmoveon 6y ago

Just because they are in management doesn't mean they are outside of the scope of an underling.

pmiller2 6y ago

> Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? Obviously, this project wasn't important enough to be given to you with enough time to get it done. Deadlines are often artificial, and this is probably what it was. In the absence of any specifics, I'd say push back on the deadline, negotiate for what you need to deliver something acceptable within a reasonable time, and don't kill yourself for it. If you do kill yourself for this one project, that just sets an expectation for next time that you don't want to have set.

Frost1x 6y ago
I've worked with a lot of environments before where these deadlines aren't artificial. Usually these are projects dictated and agreed to by non-technical staff, then handed to technical staff to figure out. I assumed they were artificial, then I look at official signed contracts with deliverables and dates and die a bit inside. "We said we'd give them X, Y, Z by A for $N. Let's see how close we can get to it." Is not abnormal from my experience with major clients as well. I work in R&D so there is usually an expectation of delays and failures but in this world, the client has an idea of what they want and an upper budget if what they'll spend. People try and feel this out to get as close to their budget as possible and as little as the client with agree to for that budget. Actual budgeting based on requirements and planning doesn't happen, you simply grab the opportunity and run with it. Yes, much of R&D is complete shit show.
- galtwho 6y ago
  not your problem if someone signed contracts with made up dates and did not allocate resource to meet those dates. if dates can't be changed, you push back and ask for more resources to be hired. As an analogy, a house can be painted by 1 guy over 10 days or 10 guys in 1-2 days.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    But 9 women cannot give birth in 1 month. You cannot always just slap more resources on a task to get it done on time. Something that a lot of management does not seem to understand.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  Sure, there are such a thing as real deadlines. Regulatory deadlines are one example. Contractual deadlines with penalty clauses can be another. But, the type of deadline you point out (we said we'd give them $STUFF by $DATE for $PRICE) is often flexible, if not artificial. For instance, maybe you can work out a schedule where by $DATE, you deliver $SUBSET_OF_STUFF for $LOWER_PRICE, while continuing to build out features to satisfy the original request, ending up delivering $STUFF for $PRICE. Admittedly, this can be tricky. But, it can be done. I've done it before. Once a client has already agreed to a deal, they're generally inclined to stay with you, provided you're working in good faith with them. This can be somewhat of a sunk cost mentality, but it doesn't really matter as long as you're not taking advantage of that to soak them for cash. I guess the moral of the story is that any contract is amendable and re-negotiable, if you approach it right. If it's not possible to deliver by $DATE without killing yourself and your team, then it's time to consider re-negotiating. And, as you said, in the real world, delays happen; clients may be willing to accept some small delays. Even regulatory deadlines can sometimes be a little flexible, but that's a whole higher level of negotiation, and government agencies sometimes don't have the discretion to delay enforcement of new regulations, or the incentive to work with you to get you into compliance. In that case, the choice comes down to either a one-time push to deliver what's needed (and, you should be explicit that it is a one-time push), or temporarily eating the fines while delivering on a realistic schedule. I've never been in this type of situation, but I have dealt with government agencies before, and it can be a pain.

theshrike79 6y ago

> Project dropped out of the sky on my plate with due date a little too close for comfort. So what do you do? Reply with this: “Poor planning on your part does not necessitate an emergency on mine.” ― Bob Carter

jhrozek 6y ago
Genuinely curious: What do you think would be the outcome of this reply? In my previous team, it would have been "yeah I'm sorry, but there is a fire, this customer is paying us XYZ and threating to take their bussiness elsewhere, ...". Saying "no" would at best give you some additional resources. (Note that I did say "previous" team and the reason this kept happening is precisely why that team is no longer my current one)
- theshrike79 6y ago
  If there really is a fire, they should be paying "put out fire in a hurry" -rates. Especially if the hurry was caused by someone else up the chain not doing their job properly. If a problem needs solved by end of week and it takes at least 3 weeks to do properly, you document what you can do within normal office hours by the deadline and ask if that's enough. If not, then they either need to approve overtime or extra resources. There's exactly zero chance I'm going to be using my free time to fix someone else's fuckup without proper compensation.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Tabular-Iceberg 6y ago

I see the same thing. Granted as an individual contributor I'm only privy to a small fraction of meetings, so it may be not be representative. But they usually start with higher-ups arriving late, groaning about back-to-back meetings, and if we manage to settle the matter before the allotted time, they usually pad the rest of the session with more speculative discussions not on the agenda, ensuring it will be back-to-back with the next one as well. Who would be afraid of having to sit and twiddle their thumbs for half an hour waiting for the next meeting, if not someone desperate to uphold an image of being an over-worker?