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> Ultimately, though, we all need the laptop makers to be better about configuring their machines. It’s unacceptable to charge $1,000 or more for a laptop with

> Ultimately, though, we all need the laptop makers to be better about configuring their machines. It’s unacceptable to charge $1,000 or more for a laptop with only 8GB of RAM now. The alternative is to stop soldering it to the motherboard so we can upgrade it ourselves, but that’s not going to happen, is it? Machines should be upgradable/repairable, I think the right to repair also means that the end user should be able to decide how much memory a machine has (within bounds of course). How will this work? I don't know. There are at least two instances where I didn't buy a new laptop because the memory system was either hobbled, topped out too soon or was not fully upgradable. I think it is a larger driver of ewaste than people realize and it prevents older machines from being repurposed as easily. Even with soldered ram, it isn't out of the question to get the machine sent off and have the memory upgraded, it just requires the right tooling.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
yummypaint 6y ago
The fact that new computers are already unfixably obsolete can't be good for business. Whatever they are saving on components and assembly can't be worth it if nobody will buy the machine in the first place.
- darthrupert 6y ago
  > if nobody will buy the machine in the first place. That's a big if. Apple seems to be hitting homerun after another with their unfixable hardware.
marcan_42 6y ago
Soldered down RAM has real technical advantages. LPDDRx variants of RAM aren't available on DIMMs for this reason. All that modularity means you have ~100 very high speed digital signals running across a board and several connectors. That takes power, due to the physics involved. It doesn't matter for computers plugged into a wall or for gamer laptops, but it matters in the mid and ultraportable segment if you want decent battery life. Soldering RAM down right next to the CPU or on top of it (as is done in SoC style laptops) lets you use narrower, faster buses at lower voltage swing and lower power (LPDDR4X operates at half the I/O voltage of DDR4). Now soldered down SSDs, yeah, unless you're building a thin phone with no space for a connector, there's no excuse for that. PCIe works perfectly fine across a connector.
- titzer 6y ago
  What is the contribution of the bus to overall power consumption vs the CPU and DRAM chips themselves, let alone the screen? I find it hard to believe that that is really an important design consideration leading to soldered-in RAM. I had a Lenovo Stinkpad Carbon X1. The soldered-in RAM started to fail, causing memory corruption. That machine is now a brick, and I am still pissed off about it. Modular RAM is fixable RAM.
- ghaff 6y ago
  Yes to this. Me: I want a easily upgradable, swappable computer. Also me: I want a fast 2 pound laptop with great battery life. That said, I had to put a new battery in a 17" gaming laptop a while back. It's a huge machine and there was zero excuse for the battery not be easily swappable.
- chx 6y ago
  But then you have Lenovo who only ships 32GB with the latest X1 Carbon if you also choose an i7 CPU...
- Const-me 6y ago
  > it matters in the mid and ultraportable segment if you want decent battery life. Memory buses consume very little power compared to the rest of the components. Even memory itself doesn’t consume much, except VRAM in high-end GPUs but that’s an order of magnitude faster than system RAM in most computers. Battery impact of soldered versus socketed RAM is negligible. For instance, HP ProBook 445 G7 and G8 have two DDR4 SO-DIMM slots, yet the battery life is up to 14 hours. Computers with soldered RAM are slightly cheaper to manufacture (less parts). Also, it’s not user-upgradeable, users are likely to replace the complete computer after a few years. Memory and disk requirements of software grows quickly over time: https://techtalk.pcmatic.com/research-charts-memory/ https://techtalk.pcmatic.com/research-charts-memory/ These two factors create incentives for computer manufacturers to solder the RAM, despite that’s not in the interests of users, and the environment.
  - sitkack 6y ago
    To you an titzer, as much as I don't like non-modular RAM, what I am advocating for goes even beyond this. Allow the soldered on ram to be upgradable, or put vacant spots for more ram to be added later. Allow HBMs to be stacked, or sell a machine with the HBM not attached and I can source one myself. There absolutely could be a socketed standard for memory. But in general I am arguing for a more upgradable philosophy and manufacturers should be obligated to adhere to that philosophy. The technicals will always be changing, it isn't really a technical problem at all.
schmorptron 6y ago
The framework laptop might be right up your alley!
huachimingo 6y ago
Read "Tools for conviventiality", by Ivan Illich. It inspired one of the makers of the first Personal Computer.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

yummypaint 6y ago

The fact that new computers are already unfixably obsolete can't be good for business. Whatever they are saving on components and assembly can't be worth it if nobody will buy the machine in the first place.

darthrupert 6y ago
> if nobody will buy the machine in the first place. That's a big if. Apple seems to be hitting homerun after another with their unfixable hardware.

marcan_42 6y ago

Soldered down RAM has real technical advantages. LPDDRx variants of RAM aren't available on DIMMs for this reason. All that modularity means you have ~100 very high speed digital signals running across a board and several connectors. That takes power, due to the physics involved. It doesn't matter for computers plugged into a wall or for gamer laptops, but it matters in the mid and ultraportable segment if you want decent battery life. Soldering RAM down right next to the CPU or on top of it (as is done in SoC style laptops) lets you use narrower, faster buses at lower voltage swing and lower power (LPDDR4X operates at half the I/O voltage of DDR4). Now soldered down SSDs, yeah, unless you're building a thin phone with no space for a connector, there's no excuse for that. PCIe works perfectly fine across a connector.

titzer 6y ago
What is the contribution of the bus to overall power consumption vs the CPU and DRAM chips themselves, let alone the screen? I find it hard to believe that that is really an important design consideration leading to soldered-in RAM. I had a Lenovo Stinkpad Carbon X1. The soldered-in RAM started to fail, causing memory corruption. That machine is now a brick, and I am still pissed off about it. Modular RAM is fixable RAM.
ghaff 6y ago
Yes to this. Me: I want a easily upgradable, swappable computer. Also me: I want a fast 2 pound laptop with great battery life. That said, I had to put a new battery in a 17" gaming laptop a while back. It's a huge machine and there was zero excuse for the battery not be easily swappable.
chx 6y ago
But then you have Lenovo who only ships 32GB with the latest X1 Carbon if you also choose an i7 CPU...
Const-me 6y ago
> it matters in the mid and ultraportable segment if you want decent battery life. Memory buses consume very little power compared to the rest of the components. Even memory itself doesn’t consume much, except VRAM in high-end GPUs but that’s an order of magnitude faster than system RAM in most computers. Battery impact of soldered versus socketed RAM is negligible. For instance, HP ProBook 445 G7 and G8 have two DDR4 SO-DIMM slots, yet the battery life is up to 14 hours. Computers with soldered RAM are slightly cheaper to manufacture (less parts). Also, it’s not user-upgradeable, users are likely to replace the complete computer after a few years. Memory and disk requirements of software grows quickly over time: https://techtalk.pcmatic.com/research-charts-memory/ https://techtalk.pcmatic.com/research-charts-memory/ These two factors create incentives for computer manufacturers to solder the RAM, despite that’s not in the interests of users, and the environment.
- sitkack 6y ago
  To you an titzer, as much as I don't like non-modular RAM, what I am advocating for goes even beyond this. Allow the soldered on ram to be upgradable, or put vacant spots for more ram to be added later. Allow HBMs to be stacked, or sell a machine with the HBM not attached and I can source one myself. There absolutely could be a socketed standard for memory. But in general I am arguing for a more upgradable philosophy and manufacturers should be obligated to adhere to that philosophy. The technicals will always be changing, it isn't really a technical problem at all.

schmorptron 6y ago

The framework laptop might be right up your alley!

huachimingo 6y ago

Read "Tools for conviventiality", by Ivan Illich. It inspired one of the makers of the first Personal Computer.