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Many products like water boilers, ovens or toasters can be built more robust without digital chips. I would argue we would see a overall quality improvement fro

Many products like water boilers, ovens or toasters can be built more robust without digital chips. I would argue we would see a overall quality improvement from having a bad chip shortage.

jpm_sd 6y ago
LOL nobody remembers how to design analog control systems anymore
- ta988 6y ago
  And they are not always more robust. Calibration, noise sensitivity...
- rightbyte 6y ago
  I mean the systems I name dropped are thermostats or timers.
tomxor 6y ago
I would be careful to conflate internet connected trash with enough ARM cores and LoC to make your brain melt with the likes of a well placed humble microcontroller.. the mechanical or analogue components they replaced were usually far more temperamental, bulky, expensive and bad at their job. There are exceptional environments like in nuclear power, but for most purposes integrated electronics have improved reliability when done well.
- cfn 6y ago
  Anyone who ever tried to fix a broken washing machine mechanical timer/programmer agrees with you. I did try and failed miserably, those things were a nightmare to fix and broke quite easily.
  - betamaxthetape 6y ago
    I'd agree that mechanical mechanisms may break more easily than microprocessor equivalents, but I'm not sure about the argument that they are more difficult to repair. With microprocessor-driven systems, the solutions seems to be to replace the entire PCB, which is often completely custom to the manufacturer or even the specific model of machine. Trying to source a reasonably priced replacement is often difficult, and there's no easy way to diagnose and repair a broken PCB.
    - SilverRed 6y ago
      Right to repair should come in to fix this. My off the top of the head thoughts would be * For a device like washing machine, parts should be supplied for a time of about 10 years. * Every part should be available to purchase either on its own or as part of a replacement kit like a PCB. * The sum of the cost of all replacement parts shouldn't be above x% of the initial item price. * If an OEM physically can not get you a replacement part (Chip discontinued, etc) and your product breaks, the OEM pays you for the remaining expected lifetime. (If it was 5 years old they pay you 50% of the initial cost) So in theory you should be able to build an entirely new product from parts and it would only cost you x% more than a pre built one which stops OEMs setting insane prices on replacements. The end result would likely be that OEMs would have to slim down on their product variations and sell the same designs for longer rather than releasing a new model of printer every year since this would make it much easier to stock parts. Some companies already do this, I have noticed Brevile has sold the same kettle and coffee machine models for almost 10 years now.
  - salawat 6y ago
    Done so, still prefer analog up until things get so small or fragile they can't hold up anymore. As long as the part is still manufactured, you're good. PCB's? Forget it. E-waste central.
- rightbyte 6y ago
  Ye well I agree. As sibling comment pointed out I rather have a chip then a motor driven timer switch with fancy grooves. My point is that simple systems like coffee cookers don't benefit much from having microcontrollers and you introduce alot of complexity. My 3yo Mocca Master just have a timing relay and a switch for the aux. heater. If they added a IC to have eg. a 'smart heater' or what ever the complexity and risk for making design errors would explode. With two switches you can enumerate the states of the system. With code you can't just look at the coffee machine and figure out exactly how it works while reviewing the design for production. No code, no bugs.
  - tomxor 6y ago
    If it's added complexity for no fundamental improvement to the device then I'd agree it's bad. I find that avoiding buying devices with "smart" in the name eliminates most such designs... i'm starting to worry about the availability of dumb cars in the future though (consider that dumb cars are packed full of microelectronics and sensors that do a fantastic job of managing the engine, they work more independently, simply, almost mechanically compared to the "smart" bits).
  - Dylan16807 6y ago
    I don't know, I wouldn't automatically assume that an arbitrary timing relay is more reliable than an arbitrary 8-bit chip. And it's pretty easy to debug ten lines of code.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
huseyinkeles 6y ago
Genuine question: how is the lack of digital chips going to make a toaster more robust?
- logicalmonster 6y ago
  As an easy answer: the fewer parts there are, usually the less there is to potentially break down. A more classic style of toaster can be as simple as a heating element that's triggered by some kind of mechanical timer you set contained within some kind of container. There's much less that can possibly break down with age and burn out. There's no internal sensors, multiple buttons and electronics that can burn out, maybe some sort of WiFi component that might mess up, and more that can go wrong. Additionally with fewer parts, the manufacturing quality can hypothetically (but not always) be better. It seems easier to get the manufacturing right on a machine with 10 separate components versus say 60.
- HelloNurse 6y ago
  Not internet connected, no unsafe touch screen, no chance of software glitches or reprogramming... the list is long. A humble analog toaster is normal, a digital toaster is a step backwards.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    Yeah. What I need from a toaster is that it makes toast. I don't need it to order the bread from Amazon Home Delivery. I even more don't need it to open the house door when the delivery arrives. Just make my toast. And when you're not doing that, just sit there and be a paperweight. That's all I need.
- CRConrad 6y ago
  YouTuber Technology Connections was featured in the recent discussion on diswashing machines and detergents. He's done a video on a lovely ancient toaster, too: https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y Fully automatic brownness selection, and hands-free insertion and pop-up -- all without any electronic chips at all.

Many products like water boilers, ovens or toasters can be built more robust without digital chips. I would argue we would see a overall quality improvement from having a bad chip shortage.

jpm_sd 6y ago

LOL nobody remembers how to design analog control systems anymore

ta988 6y ago
And they are not always more robust. Calibration, noise sensitivity...
rightbyte 6y ago
I mean the systems I name dropped are thermostats or timers.

tomxor 6y ago

I would be careful to conflate internet connected trash with enough ARM cores and LoC to make your brain melt with the likes of a well placed humble microcontroller.. the mechanical or analogue components they replaced were usually far more temperamental, bulky, expensive and bad at their job. There are exceptional environments like in nuclear power, but for most purposes integrated electronics have improved reliability when done well.

cfn 6y ago
Anyone who ever tried to fix a broken washing machine mechanical timer/programmer agrees with you. I did try and failed miserably, those things were a nightmare to fix and broke quite easily.
- betamaxthetape 6y ago
  I'd agree that mechanical mechanisms may break more easily than microprocessor equivalents, but I'm not sure about the argument that they are more difficult to repair. With microprocessor-driven systems, the solutions seems to be to replace the entire PCB, which is often completely custom to the manufacturer or even the specific model of machine. Trying to source a reasonably priced replacement is often difficult, and there's no easy way to diagnose and repair a broken PCB.
  - SilverRed 6y ago
    Right to repair should come in to fix this. My off the top of the head thoughts would be * For a device like washing machine, parts should be supplied for a time of about 10 years. * Every part should be available to purchase either on its own or as part of a replacement kit like a PCB. * The sum of the cost of all replacement parts shouldn't be above x% of the initial item price. * If an OEM physically can not get you a replacement part (Chip discontinued, etc) and your product breaks, the OEM pays you for the remaining expected lifetime. (If it was 5 years old they pay you 50% of the initial cost) So in theory you should be able to build an entirely new product from parts and it would only cost you x% more than a pre built one which stops OEMs setting insane prices on replacements. The end result would likely be that OEMs would have to slim down on their product variations and sell the same designs for longer rather than releasing a new model of printer every year since this would make it much easier to stock parts. Some companies already do this, I have noticed Brevile has sold the same kettle and coffee machine models for almost 10 years now.
- salawat 6y ago
  Done so, still prefer analog up until things get so small or fragile they can't hold up anymore. As long as the part is still manufactured, you're good. PCB's? Forget it. E-waste central.
rightbyte 6y ago
Ye well I agree. As sibling comment pointed out I rather have a chip then a motor driven timer switch with fancy grooves. My point is that simple systems like coffee cookers don't benefit much from having microcontrollers and you introduce alot of complexity. My 3yo Mocca Master just have a timing relay and a switch for the aux. heater. If they added a IC to have eg. a 'smart heater' or what ever the complexity and risk for making design errors would explode. With two switches you can enumerate the states of the system. With code you can't just look at the coffee machine and figure out exactly how it works while reviewing the design for production. No code, no bugs.
- tomxor 6y ago
  If it's added complexity for no fundamental improvement to the device then I'd agree it's bad. I find that avoiding buying devices with "smart" in the name eliminates most such designs... i'm starting to worry about the availability of dumb cars in the future though (consider that dumb cars are packed full of microelectronics and sensors that do a fantastic job of managing the engine, they work more independently, simply, almost mechanically compared to the "smart" bits).
- Dylan16807 6y ago
  I don't know, I wouldn't automatically assume that an arbitrary timing relay is more reliable than an arbitrary 8-bit chip. And it's pretty easy to debug ten lines of code.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

huseyinkeles 6y ago

Genuine question: how is the lack of digital chips going to make a toaster more robust?

logicalmonster 6y ago
As an easy answer: the fewer parts there are, usually the less there is to potentially break down. A more classic style of toaster can be as simple as a heating element that's triggered by some kind of mechanical timer you set contained within some kind of container. There's much less that can possibly break down with age and burn out. There's no internal sensors, multiple buttons and electronics that can burn out, maybe some sort of WiFi component that might mess up, and more that can go wrong. Additionally with fewer parts, the manufacturing quality can hypothetically (but not always) be better. It seems easier to get the manufacturing right on a machine with 10 separate components versus say 60.
HelloNurse 6y ago
Not internet connected, no unsafe touch screen, no chance of software glitches or reprogramming... the list is long. A humble analog toaster is normal, a digital toaster is a step backwards.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  Yeah. What I need from a toaster is that it makes toast. I don't need it to order the bread from Amazon Home Delivery. I even more don't need it to open the house door when the delivery arrives. Just make my toast. And when you're not doing that, just sit there and be a paperweight. That's all I need.
CRConrad 6y ago
YouTuber Technology Connections was featured in the recent discussion on diswashing machines and detergents. He's done a video on a lovely ancient toaster, too: https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y https://youtu.be/1OfxlSG6q5Y Fully automatic brownness selection, and hands-free insertion and pop-up -- all without any electronic chips at all.