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>Oh please. The Imperium is evil in their own special way, just as everyone else in that universe. To believe that people who like them somehow feel the need to

>Oh please. The Imperium is evil in their own special way, just as everyone else in that universe. To believe that people who like them somehow feel the need to justify that rather than just enjoying a game for what it is, a game, is absolutely stupid, or at least extremely uncharitable. It is absolutely stupid, or at least extremely naive, to believe that anything is ever "just a game" or "just a book" or "just a movie". You can't build a wall through your own brain. >Why would playing the Space Nazies be any worse than the Space Communists, or the Space Bdsm Rapists, or the Space Super Spreaders, or the Space Insects That Only Like You For Your Biomass, or the Space Cockneys That Only Want To Fight, or the Space Zombies That Sort Of Kind Of Still Worship Undead Gods They Toppled? You are making my point for me here. In a world where the only choice is between Hitler and Cthulhu, I'd go with Hitler, but I real life I'd much rather prefer to not be making this choice at all. But Warhammer 40k is not real life, and so the question is who and why would want to role play in an imaginary world where you have to make that choice.

AllegedAlec 5y ago
> Is is absolutely stupid, or at least extremely naive, to believe that anything is ever "just a game" or "just a book" or "just a movie". You can't build a wall through your own brain. LMAO. Ok then. I guess all of every fiction is now invalid. Not sure how to argue against this idea, because it's just blatantly untrue IME. > You are making my point for me here. In a world where the only choice is between Hitler and Cthulhu, I'd go with Hitler, but I real life I'd much rather prefer to not be making this choice at all. My point is that it doesn't matter which one you choose because you're fucked anyhow, and the way in which you're fucked doesn't really matter. Furthermore, it's not real life, so you don't have to make that choice. > But Warhammer 40k is not real life, and so the question is who and why would want to role play in an imaginary world where you have to make that choice. Because it's fun to roleplay. It's fun to paint small plastic mans with cool aesthetics. I can think something's cool without agreeing with it.
- PicassoCTs 5y ago
  Fiction, enrages those engaging in religion, in fiction made real. Cause if tolkien could create LOTR, then the bible could be written by a nerd in the dessert, thousand years ago and all that remains of god is the Greatest Octalsided Dice. So no wonder fiction also enrages believers in societal fiction.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Fiction, enrages those engaging in religion Only rather particular approaches to religion. Given the popularity of religion throughout history, fiction would basically be nonexistent if it had that effect on the religious generally. > Cause if tolkien could create LOTR Tolkien was religious.
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Also, for example the Bible has multiple short explicitly fictional stories embedded within. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable
    - mLuby 5y ago
      >> Cause if tolkien could create LOTR > Tolkien was religious. More precisely, Tolkien was a devout Catholic (as was his less-subtle-about-it friend and fellow world-builder CS Lewis), and his mythos reflects that: [x] The one true God who is good created all things including evil and gave humans the "gift of mortality." [x] The most powerful angel rebels against God, and this great enemy seeks to corrupt the world and its creatures. [x] A partially human hero is the first to return from beyond and by doing so overthrows the great enemy. I also find it interesting that while the Orcs in Tolkien's world are evil, he wouldn't go so far as calling them irredeemable.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > More precisely, Tolkien was a devout Catholic (as was his less-subtle-about-it friend and fellow world-builder CS Lewis), Lewis was Anglican, not Catholic.
rini17 5y ago
I sympathise with you, but I'd say you are deluding yourself thinking you can "not be making this choice at all." You are (I presume, since you're using the internet) buying stuff every day from countries that torture their citizens, from materials mined in abhorrent conditions. Most of the humanity does live in W40k-like conditions right now. All I want to say, criticizing W40k with the sole argument that it's worse than reality is...undefendable.
- weregiraffe 5y ago
  >I sympathise with you, but I'd say you are deluding yourself thinking you can "not be making this choice at all." Don't put words I didn't say into my mouth, please. >All I want to say, criticizing W40k with the sole argument that it's worse than reality is...undefendable. I'm criticizing it for being a vehicle for thoughtless Space Nazi roleplay.
toyg 5y ago
The whole lore is undoubtedly nihilist, because it started in times and places where nihilism was a survival mechanism: Thatcher was gutting half of England, nuclear holocaust was on the card, greed was celebrated, and for many it felt there was no escape from a very grim future. Games Workshop took the “heavy metal” way out: everything should be grotesque and excessive, the “men in charge” are all equally bad, what matters is cool equipment. Instead of criticizing something that helped people endure that time, maybe you should ask yourself why its popularity ebbs and flows but is still so attractive to so many. Maybe we do have to choose between following equally-terrible people, every day? Maybe we still feel powerless to stop never-ending conflicts? And maybe we just like doing cool shit for the hell of it.
- weregiraffe 5y ago
  >Maybe we do have to choose between following equally-terrible people, every day? Well, okay, but there are a lot of games where you can choose between good and bad sides. You know, like most of DnD. It's Warhammer 40k specifically that forces you to choose between bad, worse and worst.
  - toyg 5y ago
    And? You are saying every game should have some “good guys”, because…? There are plenty of movies and books without “good guys”, so it’s reasonable there should be games too. After all, this situation is often closer to reality than the manichean “one side is Right” mindset, and actually spurs critical analysis of everyday situations more than the usual mindless “kill the Nazis”.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > There are plenty of movies and books without “good guys” There are very few, and fewer with any success (though, to be fair, not quite none), that don’t have any not irredeemably evil guys, which seems to be the issue people raise with WH40K.

AllegedAlec 5y ago

> Is is absolutely stupid, or at least extremely naive, to believe that anything is ever "just a game" or "just a book" or "just a movie". You can't build a wall through your own brain. LMAO. Ok then. I guess all of every fiction is now invalid. Not sure how to argue against this idea, because it's just blatantly untrue IME. > You are making my point for me here. In a world where the only choice is between Hitler and Cthulhu, I'd go with Hitler, but I real life I'd much rather prefer to not be making this choice at all. My point is that it doesn't matter which one you choose because you're fucked anyhow, and the way in which you're fucked doesn't really matter. Furthermore, it's not real life, so you don't have to make that choice. > But Warhammer 40k is not real life, and so the question is who and why would want to role play in an imaginary world where you have to make that choice. Because it's fun to roleplay. It's fun to paint small plastic mans with cool aesthetics. I can think something's cool without agreeing with it.

PicassoCTs 5y ago
Fiction, enrages those engaging in religion, in fiction made real. Cause if tolkien could create LOTR, then the bible could be written by a nerd in the dessert, thousand years ago and all that remains of god is the Greatest Octalsided Dice. So no wonder fiction also enrages believers in societal fiction.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Fiction, enrages those engaging in religion Only rather particular approaches to religion. Given the popularity of religion throughout history, fiction would basically be nonexistent if it had that effect on the religious generally. > Cause if tolkien could create LOTR Tolkien was religious.
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Also, for example the Bible has multiple short explicitly fictional stories embedded within. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Prodigal_Son https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parables_of_Jesus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable
  - mLuby 5y ago
    >> Cause if tolkien could create LOTR > Tolkien was religious. More precisely, Tolkien was a devout Catholic (as was his less-subtle-about-it friend and fellow world-builder CS Lewis), and his mythos reflects that: [x] The one true God who is good created all things including evil and gave humans the "gift of mortality." [x] The most powerful angel rebels against God, and this great enemy seeks to corrupt the world and its creatures. [x] A partially human hero is the first to return from beyond and by doing so overthrows the great enemy. I also find it interesting that while the Orcs in Tolkien's world are evil, he wouldn't go so far as calling them irredeemable.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > More precisely, Tolkien was a devout Catholic (as was his less-subtle-about-it friend and fellow world-builder CS Lewis), Lewis was Anglican, not Catholic.

rini17 5y ago

I sympathise with you, but I'd say you are deluding yourself thinking you can "not be making this choice at all." You are (I presume, since you're using the internet) buying stuff every day from countries that torture their citizens, from materials mined in abhorrent conditions. Most of the humanity does live in W40k-like conditions right now. All I want to say, criticizing W40k with the sole argument that it's worse than reality is...undefendable.

weregiraffe 5y ago
>I sympathise with you, but I'd say you are deluding yourself thinking you can "not be making this choice at all." Don't put words I didn't say into my mouth, please. >All I want to say, criticizing W40k with the sole argument that it's worse than reality is...undefendable. I'm criticizing it for being a vehicle for thoughtless Space Nazi roleplay.

toyg 5y ago

The whole lore is undoubtedly nihilist, because it started in times and places where nihilism was a survival mechanism: Thatcher was gutting half of England, nuclear holocaust was on the card, greed was celebrated, and for many it felt there was no escape from a very grim future. Games Workshop took the “heavy metal” way out: everything should be grotesque and excessive, the “men in charge” are all equally bad, what matters is cool equipment. Instead of criticizing something that helped people endure that time, maybe you should ask yourself why its popularity ebbs and flows but is still so attractive to so many. Maybe we do have to choose between following equally-terrible people, every day? Maybe we still feel powerless to stop never-ending conflicts? And maybe we just like doing cool shit for the hell of it.

weregiraffe 5y ago
>Maybe we do have to choose between following equally-terrible people, every day? Well, okay, but there are a lot of games where you can choose between good and bad sides. You know, like most of DnD. It's Warhammer 40k specifically that forces you to choose between bad, worse and worst.
- toyg 5y ago
  And? You are saying every game should have some “good guys”, because…? There are plenty of movies and books without “good guys”, so it’s reasonable there should be games too. After all, this situation is often closer to reality than the manichean “one side is Right” mindset, and actually spurs critical analysis of everyday situations more than the usual mindless “kill the Nazis”.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > There are plenty of movies and books without “good guys” There are very few, and fewer with any success (though, to be fair, not quite none), that don’t have any not irredeemably evil guys, which seems to be the issue people raise with WH40K.