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>> the customers of offshore banks are likely to be from the wealthiest segment of whichever society they come from. What a surprising discovery. Governments

>> the customers of offshore banks are likely to be from the wealthiest segment of whichever society they come from. What a surprising discovery. Governments with the most abusive tax policies still cannot realize that they cannot tax their way to prosperity. Most creative and productive people, entities and businessed did, do and will use any tools at their disposal to escape barbaric tax racket and turn their attention toward jurisdictions where they treated better than in their own home country. Trillions of dollars of wealth escaped and will continue escaping away from economies where ruling politicians cannot get their heads out of their bottoms.

Retric 5y ago
Governments generally let people do this stuff. It’s the difference between De Jore and De Facto enforcement.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
wait_a_minute 5y ago
What do you recommend for people who want to increase their wealth but aren't rich yet? The people who have potential and a solid foundation but don't yet have the capital necessary to move around like that and find the most favorable place.
- Trias11 5y ago
  Education, investments, creative work. Of course investments in the country where corrupt polititicans are proposing doubling capital gain tax is not going to work.
- vmception 5y ago
  Momentum trading is all you have. So last week that was Dogecoin and a few years ago it was value investing. The answer is “make money” and let it be taxed. The governments dont care about after-tax money which can then go anywhere unaccounted for. Thats when it can go in a tax deferred account in perpetuity.
  - WaxProlix 5y ago
    It'd be nice if there were some sort of 70+% reliable rule of thumb for this. I say this as someone who's made money on both value investing and dogecoin, but who's still anxious when taking on risk in new momentum-y ventures.
    - vmception 5y ago
      There isn't. The only 70+% reliable rule is general personal finance advice: "Dollar cost average" "Diversify" "The broad index of equities goes up by 7% on average annually over your whole life span, do this and you can afford an extra tennis ball on your walker in a few decades when your body fails you" If some aspect of that sounded less appealing, then you are back to momentum trading and looking for opportunities that distort the market and reality and bet the farm when you make the trade at all. Try to have fun, usually it comes with dopamine.
  - incrudible 5y ago
    How depressing that people on HN of all places think of Dogecoin trading before starting a business. If that is really your perspective, why live in the US?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - vmception 5y ago
      Correct, you don't need any infrastructure of the US to make money. It offers nothing except a collective culture of growth expectations. But you don't need any aspect of the US to act on it. The variety of growth capital from a wide array of investment firms is only available to a thin sliver of society that has a similar background as the investment firm directors, which would make prioritizing "starting a business" to be a waste of time in comparison to an internationally available opportunity like Dogecoin, an opportunity which only needed to last a few weeks before the market reverts to allocating capital in other things. Be depressed. The rest of us just want to give an answer to the question.
- ficklepickle 5y ago
  > aren't rich yet This is the real reason the ultra-wealthy aren't taxed. People think that they are obviously going to become rich any day now, and they won't want to pay high taxes when it inevitability happens. Some strange, shared delusion of the middle class.
  - alasdair_ 5y ago
    >the ultra-wealthy aren't taxed. The ultra-wealthy pay more tax per capita than any other group. This is the opposite of "aren't taxed"
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  One word, Dogecoin.
AlexandrB 5y ago
Do you think there's any level of taxation where a wealthy individual wouldn't want to do some "tax avoidance" in another jurisdiction? I suspect there is not.
- Trias11 5y ago
  "Other" jurisdictions are easily attracting capital from countries who are trigger happy to rob their citizens with taxes.
  - Retric 5y ago
    People very rarely actually leave countries over tax policies. Countries pretend ignorance because of who’s benefiting, but unless they renounce citizenship moving money off shore is effectively symbolic. Loopholes for example aren’t some inherent element of tax codes their built and maintained for the express purpose of being used.
    - Trias11 5y ago
      Quite a few wealthy people do. Especially Canadians and non-americans who can. Why wouldn't person move outside of tax jurusdiction if it afford saving few extra $MM's and possibility to discover more beautiful, friendly countries? Of course US Citizenship essentially became IRS trap and renouncing it became very difficult thing to do for americans
      - Retric 5y ago
        Of Canadians top 10 wealthiest, 8 live in Canada, 2 are living in the US. That’s hardly an exodus to low tax countries. So sure, examples exist they simply don’t add up to a meaningful percentage. As to why they stay, making say 10% more money just isn’t worth much hassle to the rich. They have money what they want is all the things a well functioning society gives them.
- techbio 5y ago
  I suspect the more hands-on tools by which law and order is enforced such as asset seizure, 24/7 monitoring, discreditation, and prison time could be the motivation for otherwise tax averse entities to transparently contribute their exact tax proportion.
DSingularity 5y ago
Come on. The ultra-rich don’t pay their fair share. You know this and everyone knows this. Wealth inequality is obscene. Full stop.
- Trias11 5y ago
  Could you define "fair share" please in a way that everyone is agree with?
  - airstrike 5y ago
    I'll throw a range out there for the sake of argument, and I'm really low-balling it: 25-30%
    - kwere 5y ago
      and its still a lot
    - Trias11 5y ago
      So what would be a single reason for person with $100MM of wealth to give $25MM away to wasteful, corruptive government? What kind of benefits the person is gaining by buying $25MM worth of taxes? I thought so too. Give that person a chance to reinvest these money into local economy, growing productive businesses instead of slapping the "filthy rich" label and suddenly there is a lots of capital are used for everyone's benefits instead of escaping.
      - rsgrn 5y ago
        To add $25MM to anti-corruption budgets? Sure, governments are to varying degrees, quite corrupt, but isn't that in part due to the people with leverage and power (aka money)? Example: Rich people > Shit newspapers > Misinformed populace > Shit political choices > Shit government > Corruption > Rich people now have more money.
      - ceejayoz 5y ago
        > What kind of benefits the person is gaining by buying $25MM worth of taxes? Avoiding guillotines?
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"Most creative and productive people, entities and businessed did, do and will use any tools at their disposal to escape barbaric tax racket" Would they prefer to do business in a society without benefits bought by taxes, where education is scant, crime is common, infrastructure and roads a crumbling and police is glorified mafia. Guess what, Amazon doesn't work in Russia because they cant make money there

Retric 5y ago

Governments generally let people do this stuff. It’s the difference between De Jore and De Facto enforcement.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

wait_a_minute 5y ago

What do you recommend for people who want to increase their wealth but aren't rich yet? The people who have potential and a solid foundation but don't yet have the capital necessary to move around like that and find the most favorable place.

Trias11 5y ago
Education, investments, creative work. Of course investments in the country where corrupt polititicans are proposing doubling capital gain tax is not going to work.
vmception 5y ago
Momentum trading is all you have. So last week that was Dogecoin and a few years ago it was value investing. The answer is “make money” and let it be taxed. The governments dont care about after-tax money which can then go anywhere unaccounted for. Thats when it can go in a tax deferred account in perpetuity.
- WaxProlix 5y ago
  It'd be nice if there were some sort of 70+% reliable rule of thumb for this. I say this as someone who's made money on both value investing and dogecoin, but who's still anxious when taking on risk in new momentum-y ventures.
  - vmception 5y ago
    There isn't. The only 70+% reliable rule is general personal finance advice: "Dollar cost average" "Diversify" "The broad index of equities goes up by 7% on average annually over your whole life span, do this and you can afford an extra tennis ball on your walker in a few decades when your body fails you" If some aspect of that sounded less appealing, then you are back to momentum trading and looking for opportunities that distort the market and reality and bet the farm when you make the trade at all. Try to have fun, usually it comes with dopamine.
- incrudible 5y ago
  How depressing that people on HN of all places think of Dogecoin trading before starting a business. If that is really your perspective, why live in the US?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - vmception 5y ago
    Correct, you don't need any infrastructure of the US to make money. It offers nothing except a collective culture of growth expectations. But you don't need any aspect of the US to act on it. The variety of growth capital from a wide array of investment firms is only available to a thin sliver of society that has a similar background as the investment firm directors, which would make prioritizing "starting a business" to be a waste of time in comparison to an internationally available opportunity like Dogecoin, an opportunity which only needed to last a few weeks before the market reverts to allocating capital in other things. Be depressed. The rest of us just want to give an answer to the question.
ficklepickle 5y ago
> aren't rich yet This is the real reason the ultra-wealthy aren't taxed. People think that they are obviously going to become rich any day now, and they won't want to pay high taxes when it inevitability happens. Some strange, shared delusion of the middle class.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  >the ultra-wealthy aren't taxed. The ultra-wealthy pay more tax per capita than any other group. This is the opposite of "aren't taxed"
rufus_foreman 5y ago
One word, Dogecoin.

AlexandrB 5y ago

Do you think there's any level of taxation where a wealthy individual wouldn't want to do some "tax avoidance" in another jurisdiction? I suspect there is not.

Trias11 5y ago
"Other" jurisdictions are easily attracting capital from countries who are trigger happy to rob their citizens with taxes.
- Retric 5y ago
  People very rarely actually leave countries over tax policies. Countries pretend ignorance because of who’s benefiting, but unless they renounce citizenship moving money off shore is effectively symbolic. Loopholes for example aren’t some inherent element of tax codes their built and maintained for the express purpose of being used.
  - Trias11 5y ago
    Quite a few wealthy people do. Especially Canadians and non-americans who can. Why wouldn't person move outside of tax jurusdiction if it afford saving few extra $MM's and possibility to discover more beautiful, friendly countries? Of course US Citizenship essentially became IRS trap and renouncing it became very difficult thing to do for americans
    - Retric 5y ago
      Of Canadians top 10 wealthiest, 8 live in Canada, 2 are living in the US. That’s hardly an exodus to low tax countries. So sure, examples exist they simply don’t add up to a meaningful percentage. As to why they stay, making say 10% more money just isn’t worth much hassle to the rich. They have money what they want is all the things a well functioning society gives them.
techbio 5y ago
I suspect the more hands-on tools by which law and order is enforced such as asset seizure, 24/7 monitoring, discreditation, and prison time could be the motivation for otherwise tax averse entities to transparently contribute their exact tax proportion.

DSingularity 5y ago

Come on. The ultra-rich don’t pay their fair share. You know this and everyone knows this. Wealth inequality is obscene. Full stop.

Trias11 5y ago
Could you define "fair share" please in a way that everyone is agree with?
- airstrike 5y ago
  I'll throw a range out there for the sake of argument, and I'm really low-balling it: 25-30%
  - kwere 5y ago
    and its still a lot
  - Trias11 5y ago
    So what would be a single reason for person with $100MM of wealth to give $25MM away to wasteful, corruptive government? What kind of benefits the person is gaining by buying $25MM worth of taxes? I thought so too. Give that person a chance to reinvest these money into local economy, growing productive businesses instead of slapping the "filthy rich" label and suddenly there is a lots of capital are used for everyone's benefits instead of escaping.
    - rsgrn 5y ago
      To add $25MM to anti-corruption budgets? Sure, governments are to varying degrees, quite corrupt, but isn't that in part due to the people with leverage and power (aka money)? Example: Rich people > Shit newspapers > Misinformed populace > Shit political choices > Shit government > Corruption > Rich people now have more money.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > What kind of benefits the person is gaining by buying $25MM worth of taxes? Avoiding guillotines?

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"Most creative and productive people, entities and businessed did, do and will use any tools at their disposal to escape barbaric tax racket" Would they prefer to do business in a society without benefits bought by taxes, where education is scant, crime is common, infrastructure and roads a crumbling and police is glorified mafia. Guess what, Amazon doesn't work in Russia because they cant make money there