8 ms·

Well, this Epic lawsuit seems to turn into a nightmare on multiple fronts for the PR guys at Apple...

ksec 5y ago
Speaking of PR guys at Apple, I really miss the day when Apple PR were run by Katie Cotton. The genius in PR and marketing. >Well, this Epic lawsuit... And this is the issue that no one seems to be getting. Epic will lose. As a gaming company they never really have a case, I do admire them to have the courage to go against the largest cooperation in modern history. But it provide enough materials for their end goal for other parties, whether that is EU or US regulators.
- wallwarp 5y ago
  The Dutch East India Trading Company wants to know your location. ;)
  - dylan604 5y ago
    I guess that depends on your definition of "modern history". Yes, Apple has a lot of cash, but is their current top corp based on value mean they are bigger in influence/effect on people's lives than others in history. I'm thinking AT&T pre-breakup, Standard Oil, rail roads, etc. I understand what the point the GP was making. It just sent me down a tangential bit of thinking. Ugh, and on a Saturday!
    - matwood 5y ago
      Interesting thoughts. I think a lot of this comparing Apple to the companies you listed is the wrong way to think about them. First, it's not just Apple. The App Store/ecosystem concept is a newish concept, and probably needs completely new types of regulation outside of anti-trust. Apple, Google, MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc... are for the most part monopolies in their respective worlds, but fail at the traditional monopoly definition. Waiting for a company to achieve an AT&T or Standard Oil level level of power is an outdated way of thinking. Apple also doesn't have anywhere near that level of power.
- stephc_int13 5y ago
  Story is not written yet, and I don't trust armchair lawyers to predict the outcome of something that complex.
- scarface74 5y ago
  Their only end goal was to get a better outcome for themselves. It came out in the trial that if they had gotten the special deal they were seeking, you probably wouldn’t have heard a peep from them.
  - djmips 5y ago
    Somehow that seemed obvious to me without the direct evidence. I have no doubt that if the shoe was on the other foot, Epic would be super happy to be the gatekeeper taking in 30%>
    - MattRix 5y ago
      No they wouldn’t. They already run their own store where they take 12%. Tim Sweeney has been a vocal supporter of open platforms/markets for many years. This action is costing Epic TONS of money. In no way does it make financial sense whatsoever. If you read the internal Epic documents from this case, it becomes quite clear that this is Tim Sweeney’s personal crusade against Apple.
      - scarface74 5y ago
        Then why did Epic ask for a special deal from Apple? Can I use in game currency bought from somewhere else in FortNite?
      - edoceo 5y ago
        > read the internal Epic documents from this case how can we do that?
        MattRix 5y ago
        It used to be in a public documents folder on Box. The link doesn’t seem to be working anymore so maybe they took it down for the weekend (or permanently) https://app.box.com/s/6b9wmjvr582c95uzma1136exumk6p989/folder/135953042066 https://app.box.com/s/6b9wmjvr582c95uzma1136exumk6p989/folde...
        5y ago
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Epic might not win against Apple directly but the end result will likely be exactly the same when the EU are done with Apple.
- seumars 5y ago
  What made Katie Cotton a genius?
- johnnyanmac 5y ago
  >As a gaming company they never really have a case given that individuals have brought up cases that ultimately landmarked as Surpreme court rulings, I have to say this is the oddest take on the lawsuit I've seen yet.
Hamuko 5y ago
It feels like a PR disaster to everyone involved even if they're not part of the actual lawsuit. See also: Sony
yepthatsreality 5y ago
The idea is to tear down the walls of the garden. In this case Apple advertises security and quality control as features of the fees for their required app store. If the garden is not actually more secure and the quality not actually controlled in reality than any other garden, then there will be an argument to allow anyone to start a garden on iOS.
- lupire 5y ago
  Epic wants their own walled garden. They aren't anti-walled garden. Let's not pretend that one greedy billionaire is the good one here.
  - Dah00n 5y ago
    Just like many comments on HN keeps arguing that Apple is better than Google because of privacy then Epic is the good guy in this because more walled gardens are better than only one even if it is still not open.
  - temac 5y ago
    Would an oligopoly (at worst) need to be strictly as bad as a monopoly though? I don't really care that the fight is mainly the one of greedy billionaires, as long as it reduces the prices for consumers. Plus Epic does not really proposes the same kind of walls as Apple do. The worst they can do are exclusive titles on some typically somehow open platforms (and yep I guess they would take a deal to have an authorized store on a closed one, but for now I'm not sure such beasts exist anyway -- and again, why would it be worse than a monopoly?), they don't even sell only that, and the people they get exclusivity from had the choice to do something else anyway (without renouncing to whole platforms)
    - judge2020 5y ago
      I mean, if you're against the monopoly it makes little sense to be for an oligopoly. Either you have tunnels that lead between different walled gardens, not really changing much except which company receives your money, or you tear down the walls of all walled gardens and users might just get attacked as they try to make their way over to the other walled gardens (that being 'free fortnite vbucks' scams).
xmprt 5y ago
Especially when one of Apple's main points is that the app store ensures a secure environment for their users to download apps. If they ended up verifying this many unsecure apps, then what's the point?
- onedognight 5y ago
  The developers, e.g. for WeChat, downloaded a copy of Xcode, not from Apple, but from a random third party, and when they ran it had to click through warnings about it being unsigned. Then TenCent uploaded their now hacked WeChat, compiled with the hacked Xcode, signed by them, to the AppStore. This is not Apple’s fault. This is on TenCent and the other developers who did this. The list of hacked Apps was published by Apple and linked to in the article.
  - ctvo 5y ago
    > This is not Apple’s fault This is a lot to unpack. Let me narrow it down here: - Developers submit app to AppStore - Apple scans it, manually reviews it, certifies it meets security, privacy, and quality guidelines - Apple allows users to download the app from the AppStore - Users assume apps on the AppStore are secure because Apple loudly proclaims this - Users are infected with malware And this isn't Apple's fault? Of course this isn’t a tenable position for Apple. There’s no way to catch everything. But they market this, and use it as justification for their walled garden.
    - onedognight 5y ago
      > There’s no way to catch everything. But they market this, and use it as justification for their walled garden. This is a valid point, and also the reason this particular attack is so interesting. Apple's system relies on holding people/companies accountable for submitting malware. Apple has the power to knock a company out of the App Store, so the company is incentivized to not push the limits. This hack is an attack directly on this relationship-based system. It's an attack on Apple's ability to punish. This doesn't make Apple's system worthless, just worth less.
throwaway77388 5y ago
Another one from 2021. The gist is that the Apple App Store is hosting multimillion dollar scams: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/21/22385859/apple-app-store-scams-fraud-review-enforcement-top-grossing-kosta-eleftheriou https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/21/22385859/apple-app-store-... https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...

ksec 5y ago

Speaking of PR guys at Apple, I really miss the day when Apple PR were run by Katie Cotton. The genius in PR and marketing. >Well, this Epic lawsuit... And this is the issue that no one seems to be getting. Epic will lose. As a gaming company they never really have a case, I do admire them to have the courage to go against the largest cooperation in modern history. But it provide enough materials for their end goal for other parties, whether that is EU or US regulators.

wallwarp 5y ago
The Dutch East India Trading Company wants to know your location. ;)
- dylan604 5y ago
  I guess that depends on your definition of "modern history". Yes, Apple has a lot of cash, but is their current top corp based on value mean they are bigger in influence/effect on people's lives than others in history. I'm thinking AT&T pre-breakup, Standard Oil, rail roads, etc. I understand what the point the GP was making. It just sent me down a tangential bit of thinking. Ugh, and on a Saturday!
  - matwood 5y ago
    Interesting thoughts. I think a lot of this comparing Apple to the companies you listed is the wrong way to think about them. First, it's not just Apple. The App Store/ecosystem concept is a newish concept, and probably needs completely new types of regulation outside of anti-trust. Apple, Google, MS, Sony, Nintendo, etc... are for the most part monopolies in their respective worlds, but fail at the traditional monopoly definition. Waiting for a company to achieve an AT&T or Standard Oil level level of power is an outdated way of thinking. Apple also doesn't have anywhere near that level of power.
stephc_int13 5y ago
Story is not written yet, and I don't trust armchair lawyers to predict the outcome of something that complex.
scarface74 5y ago
Their only end goal was to get a better outcome for themselves. It came out in the trial that if they had gotten the special deal they were seeking, you probably wouldn’t have heard a peep from them.
- djmips 5y ago
  Somehow that seemed obvious to me without the direct evidence. I have no doubt that if the shoe was on the other foot, Epic would be super happy to be the gatekeeper taking in 30%>
  - MattRix 5y ago
    No they wouldn’t. They already run their own store where they take 12%. Tim Sweeney has been a vocal supporter of open platforms/markets for many years. This action is costing Epic TONS of money. In no way does it make financial sense whatsoever. If you read the internal Epic documents from this case, it becomes quite clear that this is Tim Sweeney’s personal crusade against Apple.
    - scarface74 5y ago
      Then why did Epic ask for a special deal from Apple? Can I use in game currency bought from somewhere else in FortNite?
    - edoceo 5y ago
      > read the internal Epic documents from this case how can we do that?
      - MattRix 5y ago
        It used to be in a public documents folder on Box. The link doesn’t seem to be working anymore so maybe they took it down for the weekend (or permanently) https://app.box.com/s/6b9wmjvr582c95uzma1136exumk6p989/folder/135953042066 https://app.box.com/s/6b9wmjvr582c95uzma1136exumk6p989/folde...
      - 5y ago
Dah00n 5y ago
Epic might not win against Apple directly but the end result will likely be exactly the same when the EU are done with Apple.
seumars 5y ago
What made Katie Cotton a genius?
johnnyanmac 5y ago
>As a gaming company they never really have a case given that individuals have brought up cases that ultimately landmarked as Surpreme court rulings, I have to say this is the oddest take on the lawsuit I've seen yet.

Hamuko 5y ago

It feels like a PR disaster to everyone involved even if they're not part of the actual lawsuit. See also: Sony

yepthatsreality 5y ago

The idea is to tear down the walls of the garden. In this case Apple advertises security and quality control as features of the fees for their required app store. If the garden is not actually more secure and the quality not actually controlled in reality than any other garden, then there will be an argument to allow anyone to start a garden on iOS.

lupire 5y ago
Epic wants their own walled garden. They aren't anti-walled garden. Let's not pretend that one greedy billionaire is the good one here.
- Dah00n 5y ago
  Just like many comments on HN keeps arguing that Apple is better than Google because of privacy then Epic is the good guy in this because more walled gardens are better than only one even if it is still not open.
- temac 5y ago
  Would an oligopoly (at worst) need to be strictly as bad as a monopoly though? I don't really care that the fight is mainly the one of greedy billionaires, as long as it reduces the prices for consumers. Plus Epic does not really proposes the same kind of walls as Apple do. The worst they can do are exclusive titles on some typically somehow open platforms (and yep I guess they would take a deal to have an authorized store on a closed one, but for now I'm not sure such beasts exist anyway -- and again, why would it be worse than a monopoly?), they don't even sell only that, and the people they get exclusivity from had the choice to do something else anyway (without renouncing to whole platforms)
  - judge2020 5y ago
    I mean, if you're against the monopoly it makes little sense to be for an oligopoly. Either you have tunnels that lead between different walled gardens, not really changing much except which company receives your money, or you tear down the walls of all walled gardens and users might just get attacked as they try to make their way over to the other walled gardens (that being 'free fortnite vbucks' scams).

xmprt 5y ago

Especially when one of Apple's main points is that the app store ensures a secure environment for their users to download apps. If they ended up verifying this many unsecure apps, then what's the point?

onedognight 5y ago
The developers, e.g. for WeChat, downloaded a copy of Xcode, not from Apple, but from a random third party, and when they ran it had to click through warnings about it being unsigned. Then TenCent uploaded their now hacked WeChat, compiled with the hacked Xcode, signed by them, to the AppStore. This is not Apple’s fault. This is on TenCent and the other developers who did this. The list of hacked Apps was published by Apple and linked to in the article.
- ctvo 5y ago
  > This is not Apple’s fault This is a lot to unpack. Let me narrow it down here: - Developers submit app to AppStore - Apple scans it, manually reviews it, certifies it meets security, privacy, and quality guidelines - Apple allows users to download the app from the AppStore - Users assume apps on the AppStore are secure because Apple loudly proclaims this - Users are infected with malware And this isn't Apple's fault? Of course this isn’t a tenable position for Apple. There’s no way to catch everything. But they market this, and use it as justification for their walled garden.
  - onedognight 5y ago
    > There’s no way to catch everything. But they market this, and use it as justification for their walled garden. This is a valid point, and also the reason this particular attack is so interesting. Apple's system relies on holding people/companies accountable for submitting malware. Apple has the power to knock a company out of the App Store, so the company is incentivized to not push the limits. This hack is an attack directly on this relationship-based system. It's an attack on Apple's ability to punish. This doesn't make Apple's system worthless, just worth less.

throwaway77388 5y ago

Another one from 2021. The gist is that the Apple App Store is hosting multimillion dollar scams: https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/21/22385859/apple-app-store-scams-fraud-review-enforcement-top-grossing-kosta-eleftheriou https://www.theverge.com/2021/4/21/22385859/apple-app-store-... https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-scams-ios-fraud-reviews-ratings-flicktype https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/8/22272849/apple-app-store-s...