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Do you guys think Linux on small SoCs are the future? I’ve chosen the RPi 0W direction for a bathroom music player (Loodio.com) I’m working on because there ar

Do you guys think Linux on small SoCs are the future? I’ve chosen the RPi 0W direction for a bathroom music player (Loodio.com) I’m working on because there are so many possibilities in the software and the goal currently is to make it so small a wall socket can support its weight. That way you never have to think about charging it, can do OTA updates and already supports so much software with Linux. Perhaps the overhead is too high and you can already do a lot with Arduino etc?

rbanffy 5y ago
Linux has a ton of pull in this space, but you can still do a lot with thinner RTOSs on smaller, less powerful (and power-hungry) SoCs.
- testmasterflex 5y ago
  Yeah the fact I can SSH into the unit and install just about any services like a web server just makes me happy and I can focus on building cool software instead as if it was a fully featured server.
  - rbanffy 5y ago
    It’s excellent for development. Being able to have a complete development and debugging toolset inside the target environment is awesome for all sorts of reason.
Apanatshka 5y ago
Make sure to test your RPi 0W with the Bluetooth speaker you had in mind asap. Mine won't connect to my soundbar, which is complicating my setup for connecting my projector and soundbar wirelessly :(
- testmasterflex 5y ago
  Had some issues with it not showing up on iOS at first but is resolved. (First result on google) So the unit itself is now a Bluetooth speaker as well. Like so: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNsMwbhlSTj/?igshid=1wre6yuxymazb https://www.instagram.com/p/CNsMwbhlSTj/?igshid=1wre6yuxymaz... Just added a DAC/Amp + speaker inside.
vidarh 5y ago
The RPi 0W is orders of magnitude faster and bigger than the first Linux machines I used as a desktop and even the first Linux machines we used as login and mail servers for an ISP I used to run. We handled dozens of simultaneously logged in users on that machine. So the overhead of Linux is not the issue, even with modern Linux kernels taking up substantially more space. But the overhead of any given distro may be. You can certainly get lots of things done with a more basic device, but at this point if the unit cost of an RPi 0W works for you, it's certainly convenient to use something like that. That said, you can do a lot smaller device and still run Linux. E.g. the smallest device I've run Linux on (and it was no record breaker by any means) had 4MB RAM and 4MB flash, and a mid 1990's low end x86 clone. The Transcend WiFi SD-cards that I linked to elsewhere also is a good demonstration of how small you can get a Linux machine (or could, almost a decade ago)
- andromaton 5y ago
  faster and *smaller
  - vidarh 5y ago
    I should have been more precise - I meant it has magnitudes more storage and memory. My first workstation had 16MB RAM (and we ran X on them) and 400MB hard-drives.
amelius 5y ago
One tiny problem: I don't have a wall socket in my bathroom, and I suppose many people don't. And even if they do it's likely occupied by the electric toothbrush. The future is probably to have the CPU integrated in the speaker.
- vidarh 5y ago
  Yeah, many places there are specific restrictions on electrical equipment for bathrooms that includes e.g. specific sockets types. In the UK for example, most wall sockets in the bathroom use two prongs and are typically marked "shavers only". You can install three prong sockets that can take normal UK plugs in a bathroom, but they must have RCDs, and must be IP (Ingress Protection) rated, and the equipment to be used must also be IP rated to a certain level, depending on proximity to a bath etc. As a result, most bathrooms in the UK only have the two-prong shaver outlets, if that.
- testmasterflex 5y ago
  Sure, but afaik new homes do. And the latest prototype we built was battery run but I made a lot of mistakes so I’m starting over with the raspberry and eventually making a battery version again with another mcu.
  - amelius 5y ago
    By the way, some portable speakers have a USB charging outlet which you could use as well.
    - testmasterflex 5y ago
      When it’s time to DFM the plan is to contact a CM that makes portable speakers
      - ascorbic 5y ago
        I don't know where you're planning to get it manufactured, but I can recommend a CM in the UK that I used for my own Kickstarter project (vela.io) and have continued to do so for multiple rounds of reorders. I originally found them via an intro from another indie hardware maker who sells high end portable speakers. If you want a chat, send me a DM on Twitter where my username is the same.
blihp 5y ago
It's not an either/or thing or even a particularly new decision point. I generally just ask myself for smaller projects if an OS is justified/worth it? If so, go with a SoC or larger running an OS. If not, go with a microcontroller. All that has really changed is the area of overlap between microcontrollers and SoCs continues to grow so it increasingly becomes a requirements/preference decision vs. only one or the other being possible.
posterboy 5y ago
a better idea would be to get it to replace the socket, give it a neat face plate. Actually, you only need to have the input/output in place and plan for the wiring at building construction, because the--literally--biggest problem should be the power converter. Guess that's why you complain about weight, too.
- testmasterflex 5y ago
  Sure but that would raise the threshold for setup a lot for consumers. Maybe viable one day if I get a large order from a hotel chain or similar
the__alchemist 5y ago
No. Compared to an embedded device running targeted code, Linux will be slow, and consume more power. We're not in a post-computational scarcity period yet - responsiveness and battery life matter.
- Sanzig 5y ago
  It's also much easier to handle applications that require very tight timing (examples: motor control, real-time signal processing) when you're using a microcontroller with bare-metal code or almost bare-metal with a very lightweight RTOS.
  - testmasterflex 5y ago
    Would you call Arduino RTOS or do you normally go “deeper” for mass production?

rbanffy 5y ago

Linux has a ton of pull in this space, but you can still do a lot with thinner RTOSs on smaller, less powerful (and power-hungry) SoCs.

testmasterflex 5y ago
Yeah the fact I can SSH into the unit and install just about any services like a web server just makes me happy and I can focus on building cool software instead as if it was a fully featured server.
- rbanffy 5y ago
  It’s excellent for development. Being able to have a complete development and debugging toolset inside the target environment is awesome for all sorts of reason.

Apanatshka 5y ago

Make sure to test your RPi 0W with the Bluetooth speaker you had in mind asap. Mine won't connect to my soundbar, which is complicating my setup for connecting my projector and soundbar wirelessly :(

testmasterflex 5y ago
Had some issues with it not showing up on iOS at first but is resolved. (First result on google) So the unit itself is now a Bluetooth speaker as well. Like so: https://www.instagram.com/p/CNsMwbhlSTj/?igshid=1wre6yuxymazb https://www.instagram.com/p/CNsMwbhlSTj/?igshid=1wre6yuxymaz... Just added a DAC/Amp + speaker inside.

vidarh 5y ago

The RPi 0W is orders of magnitude faster and bigger than the first Linux machines I used as a desktop and even the first Linux machines we used as login and mail servers for an ISP I used to run. We handled dozens of simultaneously logged in users on that machine. So the overhead of Linux is not the issue, even with modern Linux kernels taking up substantially more space. But the overhead of any given distro may be. You can certainly get lots of things done with a more basic device, but at this point if the unit cost of an RPi 0W works for you, it's certainly convenient to use something like that. That said, you can do a lot smaller device and still run Linux. E.g. the smallest device I've run Linux on (and it was no record breaker by any means) had 4MB RAM and 4MB flash, and a mid 1990's low end x86 clone. The Transcend WiFi SD-cards that I linked to elsewhere also is a good demonstration of how small you can get a Linux machine (or could, almost a decade ago)

andromaton 5y ago
faster and *smaller
- vidarh 5y ago
  I should have been more precise - I meant it has magnitudes more storage and memory. My first workstation had 16MB RAM (and we ran X on them) and 400MB hard-drives.

amelius 5y ago

One tiny problem: I don't have a wall socket in my bathroom, and I suppose many people don't. And even if they do it's likely occupied by the electric toothbrush. The future is probably to have the CPU integrated in the speaker.

vidarh 5y ago
Yeah, many places there are specific restrictions on electrical equipment for bathrooms that includes e.g. specific sockets types. In the UK for example, most wall sockets in the bathroom use two prongs and are typically marked "shavers only". You can install three prong sockets that can take normal UK plugs in a bathroom, but they must have RCDs, and must be IP (Ingress Protection) rated, and the equipment to be used must also be IP rated to a certain level, depending on proximity to a bath etc. As a result, most bathrooms in the UK only have the two-prong shaver outlets, if that.
testmasterflex 5y ago
Sure, but afaik new homes do. And the latest prototype we built was battery run but I made a lot of mistakes so I’m starting over with the raspberry and eventually making a battery version again with another mcu.
- amelius 5y ago
  By the way, some portable speakers have a USB charging outlet which you could use as well.
  - testmasterflex 5y ago
    When it’s time to DFM the plan is to contact a CM that makes portable speakers
    - ascorbic 5y ago
      I don't know where you're planning to get it manufactured, but I can recommend a CM in the UK that I used for my own Kickstarter project (vela.io) and have continued to do so for multiple rounds of reorders. I originally found them via an intro from another indie hardware maker who sells high end portable speakers. If you want a chat, send me a DM on Twitter where my username is the same.

blihp 5y ago

It's not an either/or thing or even a particularly new decision point. I generally just ask myself for smaller projects if an OS is justified/worth it? If so, go with a SoC or larger running an OS. If not, go with a microcontroller. All that has really changed is the area of overlap between microcontrollers and SoCs continues to grow so it increasingly becomes a requirements/preference decision vs. only one or the other being possible.

posterboy 5y ago

a better idea would be to get it to replace the socket, give it a neat face plate. Actually, you only need to have the input/output in place and plan for the wiring at building construction, because the--literally--biggest problem should be the power converter. Guess that's why you complain about weight, too.

testmasterflex 5y ago
Sure but that would raise the threshold for setup a lot for consumers. Maybe viable one day if I get a large order from a hotel chain or similar

the__alchemist 5y ago

No. Compared to an embedded device running targeted code, Linux will be slow, and consume more power. We're not in a post-computational scarcity period yet - responsiveness and battery life matter.

Sanzig 5y ago
It's also much easier to handle applications that require very tight timing (examples: motor control, real-time signal processing) when you're using a microcontroller with bare-metal code or almost bare-metal with a very lightweight RTOS.
- testmasterflex 5y ago
  Would you call Arduino RTOS or do you normally go “deeper” for mass production?