4 ms·

Just to let you know. I am a French developer, making around ~45k€. While I won't pretend to be "truly high talented", I am convinced that by moving to the US a

by GuB-42 6y ago

Just to let you know. I am a French developer, making around ~45k€. While I won't pretend to be "truly high talented", I am convinced that by moving to the US and I could double that. But... I don't want to. I live in Southern France, which is a nice place (with good food). I have enough money to do almost whatever I want and have savings. I have 7 to 8 weeks/year of paid leave, which I can use pretty much when I want to. Health/unemployment insurance is included. Granted, I have no kids (by choice), but what more could I want? More money for what? Luxuries I won't even enjoy because I would be overworked? I like the US and its people, and I understand that my way of life is not everyone's, but that's to give you some perspective on why some very talented European may want to stay in Europe despite the "low" pay. A friend of mine, a mother of one, was almost begged by Google to work for them, with I suppose, the kind of pay a PhD in natural language processing can expect. She refused, instead preferring a much lower pay but with an incredible work/life balance.

bombcar 6y ago
Finding a way to consult for some US companies could get you your €45k a year for half a year's worth of work; and you could start small during those weeks of paid leave. Location arbitrage.
- GuB-42 6y ago
  I could do that, I think. I know someone who does that. He worked in the US for some time and went back to France consulting for both French and American companies. Lots of time off and good pay (for France). But... he is self employed, which means a significant part of his work includes sales and management. That's something I don't enjoy doing and I am very happy having a boss do it for me. He also has more tax and less employee protection and other advantages, which he compensates by having insurance, but that extra expense is to be considered when comparing income (it is still more than me in the end). As I said, I am content with my life, even though I know I could make is "better" if I really wanted to. It is just an insight on a reason why many engineers prefer to stay despite the "low" pay. Also worth noting that many French people dislike the very idea of working in the US. Sometimes because they don't like the culture or the sometimes misguided idea they have of it. Sometimes it is the language, or just moving and leaving their relatives behind. Canada, especially Quebec can be a "milder" alternative, I have several friends who went there, some stayed, others came back, I think the pay was higher there every time.
  - Rapzid 6y ago
    For a lot of companies you would be working as a "contractor" simply because they don't have a business entity in France. You would essentially be a full-time employee in every regard outside how your pay and benefits are managed. No excessive self-promoting, networking, or book keeping necessary.
kmonsen 6y ago
Not double, easy 10x for a decent senior engineer at a top 10 software company. I am sure you are making the best trade off and respect that, but use the real values. Double is for a fresh grad in top US markets.
- datameta 6y ago
  108k for a fresh grad? That's just not accurate. The Greater NYC area will net an entry level dev 60-75k max in most cases. 108k is much closer to the average, taking into account highly experienced outliers. National average of entry level dev salaries for reference: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Software-Developer-Salary https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Software-D...
  - jsolson 6y ago
    Taking a glance at levels.fyi, in NYC for people with one year of experience there isn't a single entry from Google below $150k. Similar for Amazon.
    - datameta 6y ago
      FAANG salaries are outliers, no doubt about that
      - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
        Are they outliers? Most public “name brand” tech companies I can think of out here pay like that. Uber/airbnb/lyft come to mind. Hell, I’m at a under the radar (but still public) company and we get paid the same as FAANG. Sure it’s not the norm, but outlier is a stretch. Especially when you account for the disproportionate headcount at the high paying companies.
    - ornornor 6y ago
      FAANG hire maybe the top 5% of SEs. By definition most of us will never get there. Especially if you don’t have the willpower to waste months for training to the interview.
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
It's not black and white. I'm working remotely in New Zealand making more than 45k euros with 1 YOE and my company seems to care a lot about W/L balance. I'm sure there are also office-based US companies with good pay and W/L balance.
- Frost1x 6y ago
  >I'm sure there are also office-based US companies with good pay and W/L balance. They are increasingly difficult to find.
  - emj 6y ago
    I've done work for one American company selling services in EU, the pay was beyond amazing and lots of work benefits I could never get from local companies. But work life, considering the jargon of the US managers I really wonder how people in the US have time for anything but work. I'll take less pay and happier life any day. I think someone on HN commented on life in Denmark from a US perspective; that people are only happy because they settle for less. My personal experience is the exact opposit, better life can only come at the expense of work productivity.
- dopidopHN 6y ago
  I will respond as a French dev working in the US since a small decade. Let’s just start by saying that back home, every worker has 5 week of pays vacation by law. Most qualify worker get 6 , and it’s not uncommon to go in the 7 or 8 with seniority. Just with that simple fact the « work life balance » a US company has to offer is kinda cute compared to what I would get automatically. Then come childcare, education and healthcare. Being childless in the US is fine, but when you see the cost of a child you understand the large salaries. Something I still don’t get after 10 years is how poor people afford kids in this country.
  - dougmwne 6y ago
    And that's only the half of it. I work for a small software company based in the US with low salaries for the industry. We recently had a benefits meeting and the health insurance scheme was explained with all the little details about the ways you can still receive big bills if you aren't carful. It's mind boggling that this $10,000 per employee per year plan can still result in serious bill anxiety for software engineers working 12 hours a day, living in studio apartments in a HCOL city. The quality of life in the USA can be quite bleak.
dopidopHN 6y ago
Yeah. French dev kinda stuck on the other side for families reason. You are on the right side of the fence, they have no idea. Salary are insane here in the US. Like: not following sane guidelines. I’m currently at times 5 what I would earn back home. I don’t think it’s gonna stop. Every job is a solid 20% increase. As soon as I can, I’m still gonna go back to civilisation. Auvergne, here I come. They are just pushing me out of the workforce earlier by giving me more money. Also: what is your fucking problem with vacations?
pjmlp 6y ago
Yeah, Portuguese living in Germany, and have lived in several other European countries before. I would rather move to other European country to ever bother with US, exactly for the same reasons you mention.
Aeolun 6y ago
True, my comparison isn’t really with the US. It’s with Japan, which has most of the socialist goodness that Europe has aside from the generous leave policies (but tons of national holidays to sort of make up for it). It also sort of implicitly includes the assumption that you still won’t work more than your 7.5-8 hours a day. Working 50% more for 50% more salary obviously is no gain at all. That said, while I know that the word ‘stress’ didn’t really apply to my jobs in Europe, I find it hard to turn back the clock on my expectations (for both pay and work/life balance). If I don’t go back I’m hoping I can build a little enclave of sanity for my team here at least.
BrandoElFollito 6y ago
I fully get what you are saying. I am French and live in the western suburbs of Paris. I have a job that does not require me to get into Paris and despite having had several opportunities, I passed. I like the quiet environment, biking to the office, even if it means a lesser pay.

by GuB-42 6y ago

bombcar 6y ago

Finding a way to consult for some US companies could get you your €45k a year for half a year's worth of work; and you could start small during those weeks of paid leave. Location arbitrage.

GuB-42 6y ago
I could do that, I think. I know someone who does that. He worked in the US for some time and went back to France consulting for both French and American companies. Lots of time off and good pay (for France). But... he is self employed, which means a significant part of his work includes sales and management. That's something I don't enjoy doing and I am very happy having a boss do it for me. He also has more tax and less employee protection and other advantages, which he compensates by having insurance, but that extra expense is to be considered when comparing income (it is still more than me in the end). As I said, I am content with my life, even though I know I could make is "better" if I really wanted to. It is just an insight on a reason why many engineers prefer to stay despite the "low" pay. Also worth noting that many French people dislike the very idea of working in the US. Sometimes because they don't like the culture or the sometimes misguided idea they have of it. Sometimes it is the language, or just moving and leaving their relatives behind. Canada, especially Quebec can be a "milder" alternative, I have several friends who went there, some stayed, others came back, I think the pay was higher there every time.
- Rapzid 6y ago
  For a lot of companies you would be working as a "contractor" simply because they don't have a business entity in France. You would essentially be a full-time employee in every regard outside how your pay and benefits are managed. No excessive self-promoting, networking, or book keeping necessary.

kmonsen 6y ago

Not double, easy 10x for a decent senior engineer at a top 10 software company. I am sure you are making the best trade off and respect that, but use the real values. Double is for a fresh grad in top US markets.

datameta 6y ago
108k for a fresh grad? That's just not accurate. The Greater NYC area will net an entry level dev 60-75k max in most cases. 108k is much closer to the average, taking into account highly experienced outliers. National average of entry level dev salaries for reference: https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Software-Developer-Salary https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Software-D...
- jsolson 6y ago
  Taking a glance at levels.fyi, in NYC for people with one year of experience there isn't a single entry from Google below $150k. Similar for Amazon.
  - datameta 6y ago
    FAANG salaries are outliers, no doubt about that
    - 6gvONxR4sf7o 6y ago
      Are they outliers? Most public “name brand” tech companies I can think of out here pay like that. Uber/airbnb/lyft come to mind. Hell, I’m at a under the radar (but still public) company and we get paid the same as FAANG. Sure it’s not the norm, but outlier is a stretch. Especially when you account for the disproportionate headcount at the high paying companies.
  - ornornor 6y ago
    FAANG hire maybe the top 5% of SEs. By definition most of us will never get there. Especially if you don’t have the willpower to waste months for training to the interview.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago

It's not black and white. I'm working remotely in New Zealand making more than 45k euros with 1 YOE and my company seems to care a lot about W/L balance. I'm sure there are also office-based US companies with good pay and W/L balance.

Frost1x 6y ago
>I'm sure there are also office-based US companies with good pay and W/L balance. They are increasingly difficult to find.
- emj 6y ago
  I've done work for one American company selling services in EU, the pay was beyond amazing and lots of work benefits I could never get from local companies. But work life, considering the jargon of the US managers I really wonder how people in the US have time for anything but work. I'll take less pay and happier life any day. I think someone on HN commented on life in Denmark from a US perspective; that people are only happy because they settle for less. My personal experience is the exact opposit, better life can only come at the expense of work productivity.
dopidopHN 6y ago
I will respond as a French dev working in the US since a small decade. Let’s just start by saying that back home, every worker has 5 week of pays vacation by law. Most qualify worker get 6 , and it’s not uncommon to go in the 7 or 8 with seniority. Just with that simple fact the « work life balance » a US company has to offer is kinda cute compared to what I would get automatically. Then come childcare, education and healthcare. Being childless in the US is fine, but when you see the cost of a child you understand the large salaries. Something I still don’t get after 10 years is how poor people afford kids in this country.
- dougmwne 6y ago
  And that's only the half of it. I work for a small software company based in the US with low salaries for the industry. We recently had a benefits meeting and the health insurance scheme was explained with all the little details about the ways you can still receive big bills if you aren't carful. It's mind boggling that this $10,000 per employee per year plan can still result in serious bill anxiety for software engineers working 12 hours a day, living in studio apartments in a HCOL city. The quality of life in the USA can be quite bleak.

dopidopHN 6y ago

Yeah. French dev kinda stuck on the other side for families reason. You are on the right side of the fence, they have no idea. Salary are insane here in the US. Like: not following sane guidelines. I’m currently at times 5 what I would earn back home. I don’t think it’s gonna stop. Every job is a solid 20% increase. As soon as I can, I’m still gonna go back to civilisation. Auvergne, here I come. They are just pushing me out of the workforce earlier by giving me more money. Also: what is your fucking problem with vacations?

pjmlp 6y ago

Yeah, Portuguese living in Germany, and have lived in several other European countries before. I would rather move to other European country to ever bother with US, exactly for the same reasons you mention.

Aeolun 6y ago

True, my comparison isn’t really with the US. It’s with Japan, which has most of the socialist goodness that Europe has aside from the generous leave policies (but tons of national holidays to sort of make up for it). It also sort of implicitly includes the assumption that you still won’t work more than your 7.5-8 hours a day. Working 50% more for 50% more salary obviously is no gain at all. That said, while I know that the word ‘stress’ didn’t really apply to my jobs in Europe, I find it hard to turn back the clock on my expectations (for both pay and work/life balance). If I don’t go back I’m hoping I can build a little enclave of sanity for my team here at least.

BrandoElFollito 6y ago

I fully get what you are saying. I am French and live in the western suburbs of Paris. I have a job that does not require me to get into Paris and despite having had several opportunities, I passed. I like the quiet environment, biking to the office, even if it means a lesser pay.