6 ms·

It seems likely that low wages are contributing to this shortage. There's lots of evidence that once employers bump wages to $15+ an hour, the have little diffi

by envy2 5y ago

It seems likely that low wages are contributing to this shortage. There's lots of evidence that once employers bump wages to $15+ an hour, the have little difficulty filling roles. This report from Pittsburgh is a good example: https://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2021/05/04/how-local-companies-are-filling-open-roles.html https://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/news/2021/05/04/how-l...

fastball 5y ago
Low wages only contribute to unemployment if you're paying people to not work. Otherwise the decision between "low wages" and "no wages" is an obvious one for everyone.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kbelder 5y ago
  True for individuals, but married couples often do have to decide whether low wages are worth more than no wages for one of the couple. Same with teenagers.
jeffbee 5y ago
There was a line of job seekers around the block at In-n-Out burger the other day. They pay $17/hr with paid time off, health/dental/vision and a 401(k) plan. The burgers are still $3.
- hemloc_io 5y ago
  I've always wondered how local/regional chains, In-n-Out/Dicks, tend to be as cheap as national ones while usually having better food and paying much better than national chains. Usually they are also in higher COL areas as well so I'd assume they pay more in Tax/Rent etc.
  - sundaeofshock 5y ago
    They are privately held. I think it's safe to assume the owners are taking a smaller profit in order to maintain quality and treat their employees well.
  - Der_Einzige 5y ago
    Lack of advertising, far smaller menu, and motivated workers. I really wish Americans would stop choosing objectively worse food (McDonalds) over In-n-Out... That being said, it's long been time for In-n-Out to stop using American cheese and switch to Cheddar, but that's a whole industry problem...
    - mcphage 5y ago
      > I really wish Americans would stop choosing objectively worse food (McDonalds) over In-n-Out Most Americans don't have that option, sadly. > it's long been time for In-n-Out to stop using American cheese and switch to Cheddar Please no—American cheese melts better. Or you need to have heavily processed cheddar to melt as nicely, and then there's not much of a difference.
  - nonameiguess 5y ago
    Don't know about all small businesses that provide quality employment and a quality product at low price while remaining in business, but In n Out is famously family owned by an extremely religious family with no desire to grow fast, take over their industry, or go public to turn investors into multibillionaires. They don't even have investors. Perfectly happy to just be ordinary millionaires and share the value of the company with their employees. Rents might be high in Southern California, but the bulk of their rapid expansion was in the 70s and 80s when land was still reasonably cheap and they may actually own many of their own buildings.
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      Maybe they do, but I checked the ones in my county and the sites are owned by East Coast REITs. I'm sure they are able to negotiate reasonable long-term leases, of course.
- squidlogic 5y ago
  High paying fast food jobs are probably the exception not the norm. Relying on low skill jobs to provide higher compensation without changing the underlying value prop of the employee seems to undermine fundamental economic principles.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    Well, we need to turn that thinking around or our country will be (more) completely fucked. We need people who cook food and build houses and dig trenches, so we need to figure out how to make those people well-enough paid to live a life with dignity. There are tons of "low-skill" jobs that just need to get done.
    - squidlogic 5y ago
      There are low skilled cooks and high skilled cooks. A fast food worker is low skilled, as in, without prior skills a new entrant could do the task to a similar level of proficiency as someone who has experience. Cooks at higher end restaurants, however, are skilled jobs. It takes years of knowledge and practice to master some culinary techniques, hence they are harder to replace, their work product can be sold for greater profit, and the individual will be able to obtain higher pay. The same applies construction and most Amy other industry. Some jobs are low skilled, not requiring prior experience or skill, but many are skilled and can demand higher wages. This system incentivizes the individual to learn new skills, gain knowledge, try new things, and thereby gain a access to opportunities that pay higher wages.
DamnYuppie 5y ago
What I am seeing on the ground is definitely disagreeing with this. The thing they are fighting against is people are getting a lot of money in stimulus so there is no desire for them to work. Where I live there are tons of people looking to hire at $20/hr and they are getting zero applicants. These jobs range from Walmart, local delivery drivers, yard crews, etc. It is pretty harsh trying to compete against free money.
- kreeben 5y ago
  >> people are getting a lot of money in stimulus Please define "a lot of money". >> so there is no desire for them to work Those lazies, why won't they work for peanuts? >> Where I live there are tons of people looking to hire at $20/hr and they are getting zero applicants. Source please, if you will.
  - DamnYuppie 5y ago
    As I stated in my comment it was based on recent conversations with business owners in my area, so I am the source. I find it offensive and sad that you implied I called someone lazy, I didn't. I stated that competing with free money is challenging and is what is making it hard to find employees. Why work for $20/hr when you are getting unemployment benefits that nears $14?
    - kreeben 5y ago
      I found your unsubstantiated claim that "people aren't even applying to these great fucking job opportunities" laughable. EDIT: Apologies, that was a lazy comment. What I meant to say was "I found your comment to be laughable at best and ill-willed at worst." If you are still into having a discussion with me, even though I offended you, can we make it revolve around the concept of "socialism" and the reasons behind many US citizens being afraid that going down the path of looking out for each other will lead to the US becoming The Soviet Union?
    - codemac 5y ago
      $14/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks is $28k/year. $20/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks is $40k/year. This is life changing amounts different. Considering a living wage is considered $14/hour for Idaho[0] for a single, unmarried, no kids adult, I think the bigger problem is probably not unemployment, but with businesses not realizing that their wages are not competitive for labor against almost anything else. You can't pay the median or worse and expect hiring to be quickly, especially in Boise - a growing urban area that is probably well outside the state's average. [0]: https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/16 https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/16
ctdonath 5y ago
If those jobs don’t produce >$15/hr, they don’t happen.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
throwkeep 5y ago
They would have even less difficulty hiring if they paid $100 an hour. So I'd question how useful that framing is.
- xnx 5y ago
  Extremely useful. That framing conveys that it is not a matter of absolutes, but negotiation. Anything for a price.
- xzit 5y ago
  And even less difficulty if they paid $1000 an hour! Boom, argument destroyed amirite?

by envy2 5y ago

fastball 5y ago

Low wages only contribute to unemployment if you're paying people to not work. Otherwise the decision between "low wages" and "no wages" is an obvious one for everyone.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kbelder 5y ago
True for individuals, but married couples often do have to decide whether low wages are worth more than no wages for one of the couple. Same with teenagers.

jeffbee 5y ago

There was a line of job seekers around the block at In-n-Out burger the other day. They pay $17/hr with paid time off, health/dental/vision and a 401(k) plan. The burgers are still $3.

hemloc_io 5y ago
I've always wondered how local/regional chains, In-n-Out/Dicks, tend to be as cheap as national ones while usually having better food and paying much better than national chains. Usually they are also in higher COL areas as well so I'd assume they pay more in Tax/Rent etc.
- sundaeofshock 5y ago
  They are privately held. I think it's safe to assume the owners are taking a smaller profit in order to maintain quality and treat their employees well.
- Der_Einzige 5y ago
  Lack of advertising, far smaller menu, and motivated workers. I really wish Americans would stop choosing objectively worse food (McDonalds) over In-n-Out... That being said, it's long been time for In-n-Out to stop using American cheese and switch to Cheddar, but that's a whole industry problem...
  - mcphage 5y ago
    > I really wish Americans would stop choosing objectively worse food (McDonalds) over In-n-Out Most Americans don't have that option, sadly. > it's long been time for In-n-Out to stop using American cheese and switch to Cheddar Please no—American cheese melts better. Or you need to have heavily processed cheddar to melt as nicely, and then there's not much of a difference.
- nonameiguess 5y ago
  Don't know about all small businesses that provide quality employment and a quality product at low price while remaining in business, but In n Out is famously family owned by an extremely religious family with no desire to grow fast, take over their industry, or go public to turn investors into multibillionaires. They don't even have investors. Perfectly happy to just be ordinary millionaires and share the value of the company with their employees. Rents might be high in Southern California, but the bulk of their rapid expansion was in the 70s and 80s when land was still reasonably cheap and they may actually own many of their own buildings.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    Maybe they do, but I checked the ones in my county and the sites are owned by East Coast REITs. I'm sure they are able to negotiate reasonable long-term leases, of course.
squidlogic 5y ago
High paying fast food jobs are probably the exception not the norm. Relying on low skill jobs to provide higher compensation without changing the underlying value prop of the employee seems to undermine fundamental economic principles.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  Well, we need to turn that thinking around or our country will be (more) completely fucked. We need people who cook food and build houses and dig trenches, so we need to figure out how to make those people well-enough paid to live a life with dignity. There are tons of "low-skill" jobs that just need to get done.
  - squidlogic 5y ago
    There are low skilled cooks and high skilled cooks. A fast food worker is low skilled, as in, without prior skills a new entrant could do the task to a similar level of proficiency as someone who has experience. Cooks at higher end restaurants, however, are skilled jobs. It takes years of knowledge and practice to master some culinary techniques, hence they are harder to replace, their work product can be sold for greater profit, and the individual will be able to obtain higher pay. The same applies construction and most Amy other industry. Some jobs are low skilled, not requiring prior experience or skill, but many are skilled and can demand higher wages. This system incentivizes the individual to learn new skills, gain knowledge, try new things, and thereby gain a access to opportunities that pay higher wages.

DamnYuppie 5y ago

What I am seeing on the ground is definitely disagreeing with this. The thing they are fighting against is people are getting a lot of money in stimulus so there is no desire for them to work. Where I live there are tons of people looking to hire at $20/hr and they are getting zero applicants. These jobs range from Walmart, local delivery drivers, yard crews, etc. It is pretty harsh trying to compete against free money.

kreeben 5y ago
>> people are getting a lot of money in stimulus Please define "a lot of money". >> so there is no desire for them to work Those lazies, why won't they work for peanuts? >> Where I live there are tons of people looking to hire at $20/hr and they are getting zero applicants. Source please, if you will.
- DamnYuppie 5y ago
  As I stated in my comment it was based on recent conversations with business owners in my area, so I am the source. I find it offensive and sad that you implied I called someone lazy, I didn't. I stated that competing with free money is challenging and is what is making it hard to find employees. Why work for $20/hr when you are getting unemployment benefits that nears $14?
  - kreeben 5y ago
    I found your unsubstantiated claim that "people aren't even applying to these great fucking job opportunities" laughable. EDIT: Apologies, that was a lazy comment. What I meant to say was "I found your comment to be laughable at best and ill-willed at worst." If you are still into having a discussion with me, even though I offended you, can we make it revolve around the concept of "socialism" and the reasons behind many US citizens being afraid that going down the path of looking out for each other will lead to the US becoming The Soviet Union?
  - codemac 5y ago
    $14/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks is $28k/year. $20/hour * 40 hours/week * 50 weeks is $40k/year. This is life changing amounts different. Considering a living wage is considered $14/hour for Idaho[0] for a single, unmarried, no kids adult, I think the bigger problem is probably not unemployment, but with businesses not realizing that their wages are not competitive for labor against almost anything else. You can't pay the median or worse and expect hiring to be quickly, especially in Boise - a growing urban area that is probably well outside the state's average. [0]: https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/16 https://livingwage.mit.edu/states/16

ctdonath 5y ago

If those jobs don’t produce >$15/hr, they don’t happen.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

throwkeep 5y ago

They would have even less difficulty hiring if they paid $100 an hour. So I'd question how useful that framing is.

xnx 5y ago
Extremely useful. That framing conveys that it is not a matter of absolutes, but negotiation. Anything for a price.
xzit 5y ago
And even less difficulty if they paid $1000 an hour! Boom, argument destroyed amirite?