7 ms·

There are some very valid reasons [1] why we should stay away from Racket: toxic community, toxic people... And come on: no one has ever really used Racket to w

by dermal 5y ago

There are some very valid reasons [1] why we should stay away from Racket: toxic community, toxic people... And come on: no one has ever really used Racket to write some decent nontrivial web application, documentation is awful (and, please, don't count HN here, cause HN is written in Arc). [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wY7FBtr7_c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wY7FBtr7_c

GavinMcG 5y ago
Racket's documentation isn't something I've ever heard criticized. It's extensive, well-written, and even has various formats for users at different levels of familiarity. I don't think I've run into another language whose documentation gave me as much confidence.
- borodi 5y ago
  I would say that racket has one of the best tutorials ever made for any language. Specially with the reduced versions inside DrRacket. Also some books like How to Design Programs.
  - baldfat 5y ago
    How to Design Programs is maybe my all time favorite programming book. BUT it is incredibly dense and you can't go to it for your first book. Realms of Racket is a good one though.
- dermal 5y ago
  Ok, GavinMcG, just try to write web application in racket, based on official documentation. I assure you that nothing will be clear to you, huge questions will just fly over your head, and if you then ask for help on the Racket group, the people there will make fun of you. Been there, done that! Believe me.
nickpeterson 5y ago
I watched this video (skimmed), it seems like the creator had a few incidents involving people in the racket community. I’m not a racket community participant or racket user, but every community has these issues. Honestly this feels like a really weird ax to grind against racket?
- lukego 5y ago
  He's talking in measured terms about his own personal experience on his own personal vlog. It was probably cathartic for him (and for other people too.) No big deal.
GavinMcG 5y ago
I watched the whole video. He acknowledged that Racket has excellent documentation, a wide-ranging toolset, etc. All the good stuff you've heard elsewhere. He criticizes the language-oriented model (in comparison to languages that people are familiar with but that allow embedded Deals, like Lua or Ruby) because creating a new DSL is antithetical to code that communicates with other programmers. This is fair, and a common criticism of Lisps: the complete freedom of the macro system means that individual programmers can create their own dialects quite easily, and other users of that code have a harder time working with it than in languages where there's not as much metaprogramming. On the "toxic" front, one of the core team apparently asked a waitress a cringy question about higher education, referred to some other educators (at the creator's institution) as doofuses and the like, and was arrogant. And at the end of it all, though he doesn't see a use for Racket's language-oriented model, he recommends learning and using it.
- protomyth 5y ago
  because creating a new DSL is antithetical to code that communicates with other programmers. DSLs communicate wonderfully with the business users paying for the program. It also allows a programmer to match the jargon / industry speak used by the users.
  - Bootvis 5y ago
    Do you have an example of such a DSL? I like the idea but I myself can’t come up with a tool that implements it well.
    - blacktriangle 5y ago
      Not Racked based, but I'd say Cucumber/Gherkin. Yes it is absolutely overkill for small teams, but if you have a dedicated person who is not really a programmer but who is managing requirements between the developers and the stakeholders, Cucumber is amazing in that scenario.
    - hashkb 5y ago
      Rails routes. ActiveRecord. RSpec
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tdsamardzhiev 5y ago
I remember a time when people could take being called a "doofus" without starting a smear campaign.
- notriskfree 5y ago
  You doofus.
rscho 5y ago
Hey, you're improving! You actually modified your spiel instead of only copy/pasting the last iteration of your smear campaign like last time. Way to go :D PS : what happened to the "you can't make a web app in Racket" part?
- ashton314 5y ago
  Lol. Who is this person you’re replying to, and can we get them banned for being a troll? I really don’t know what this guy’s talking about in other comments. Web apps seem super easy to put together in Racket. For those curious, see: https://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html (The troll also acknowledges that Arc is a neat language— apparently, they think that racket is a terrible language to write bad applications, but I guess it’s good enough to write a language to write good web applications in!) (I have heard a Racket described as the “second best programming language, the best programming language is the one you use Racket to build!)
dang 5y ago
Could you please stop creating accounts to post like this? I realize you have some strong opinions about Racket. I have no doubt that there is some truth in there. But what you're doing here is absolutely not what this forum is supposed to be for, and you're hurting it. If you would please stop, we'd be grateful. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

by dermal 5y ago

GavinMcG 5y ago

Racket's documentation isn't something I've ever heard criticized. It's extensive, well-written, and even has various formats for users at different levels of familiarity. I don't think I've run into another language whose documentation gave me as much confidence.

borodi 5y ago
I would say that racket has one of the best tutorials ever made for any language. Specially with the reduced versions inside DrRacket. Also some books like How to Design Programs.
- baldfat 5y ago
  How to Design Programs is maybe my all time favorite programming book. BUT it is incredibly dense and you can't go to it for your first book. Realms of Racket is a good one though.
dermal 5y ago
Ok, GavinMcG, just try to write web application in racket, based on official documentation. I assure you that nothing will be clear to you, huge questions will just fly over your head, and if you then ask for help on the Racket group, the people there will make fun of you. Been there, done that! Believe me.

nickpeterson 5y ago

I watched this video (skimmed), it seems like the creator had a few incidents involving people in the racket community. I’m not a racket community participant or racket user, but every community has these issues. Honestly this feels like a really weird ax to grind against racket?

lukego 5y ago
He's talking in measured terms about his own personal experience on his own personal vlog. It was probably cathartic for him (and for other people too.) No big deal.

GavinMcG 5y ago

I watched the whole video. He acknowledged that Racket has excellent documentation, a wide-ranging toolset, etc. All the good stuff you've heard elsewhere. He criticizes the language-oriented model (in comparison to languages that people are familiar with but that allow embedded Deals, like Lua or Ruby) because creating a new DSL is antithetical to code that communicates with other programmers. This is fair, and a common criticism of Lisps: the complete freedom of the macro system means that individual programmers can create their own dialects quite easily, and other users of that code have a harder time working with it than in languages where there's not as much metaprogramming. On the "toxic" front, one of the core team apparently asked a waitress a cringy question about higher education, referred to some other educators (at the creator's institution) as doofuses and the like, and was arrogant. And at the end of it all, though he doesn't see a use for Racket's language-oriented model, he recommends learning and using it.

protomyth 5y ago
because creating a new DSL is antithetical to code that communicates with other programmers. DSLs communicate wonderfully with the business users paying for the program. It also allows a programmer to match the jargon / industry speak used by the users.
- Bootvis 5y ago
  Do you have an example of such a DSL? I like the idea but I myself can’t come up with a tool that implements it well.
  - blacktriangle 5y ago
    Not Racked based, but I'd say Cucumber/Gherkin. Yes it is absolutely overkill for small teams, but if you have a dedicated person who is not really a programmer but who is managing requirements between the developers and the stakeholders, Cucumber is amazing in that scenario.
  - hashkb 5y ago
    Rails routes. ActiveRecord. RSpec

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tdsamardzhiev 5y ago

I remember a time when people could take being called a "doofus" without starting a smear campaign.

notriskfree 5y ago
You doofus.

rscho 5y ago

Hey, you're improving! You actually modified your spiel instead of only copy/pasting the last iteration of your smear campaign like last time. Way to go :D PS : what happened to the "you can't make a web app in Racket" part?

ashton314 5y ago
Lol. Who is this person you’re replying to, and can we get them banned for being a troll? I really don’t know what this guy’s talking about in other comments. Web apps seem super easy to put together in Racket. For those curious, see: https://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/web-server/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html https://docs.racket-lang.org/continue/index.html (The troll also acknowledges that Arc is a neat language— apparently, they think that racket is a terrible language to write bad applications, but I guess it’s good enough to write a language to write good web applications in!) (I have heard a Racket described as the “second best programming language, the best programming language is the one you use Racket to build!)

dang 5y ago

Could you please stop creating accounts to post like this? I realize you have some strong opinions about Racket. I have no doubt that there is some truth in there. But what you're doing here is absolutely not what this forum is supposed to be for, and you're hurting it. If you would please stop, we'd be grateful. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html