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> the problem is not with advertising in general I disagree. Advertising is intrusive and designed to convince you to do things you wouldn't normally do. It's

> the problem is not with advertising in general I disagree. Advertising is intrusive and designed to convince you to do things you wouldn't normally do. It's large scale psychological manipulation that's only considered ethical because we've been doing it for so long.

jnwatson 6y ago
But so is essentially all interaction with your environment. Every interaction you have with essentially everyone might change your behavior. The only difference is the scale. The problem is that the power of targeted advertising has been democratized (irony intended) to allow everyone to do it. It is capable enough that it can end peaceful democracies.
- falcolas 6y ago
  > But so is essentially all interaction with your environment My every interaction with my environment doesn't involve millions of trained professionals bent to the sole purpose of influencing my actions. Outside of ads, that is.
  - antasvara 6y ago
    Might be a difference of opinion, but what do you propose as an alternative to funding free things like news sites, videos on the internet, and even cable television channels. I'm not saying that ads are particularly ethical, but I struggle to think of a replacement that isn't more paywalls. This is an easy decision to make for people that have the money, but is much harder for the majority of Americans. A Vox article [1] estimates that this would add an average of $35 a month, assuming every US adult paid this cost (which is a bold assumption). [1] https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/6/24/18715421/internet-free-data-ads-cost https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/6/24/18715421/internet-free-...
- chakhs 6y ago
  Only if you think everyone around you is trying to deceive you. Ads are designed to push you into taking unreasonable and uninformed decisions by showing advantages only and amplifying them and deliberately hiding the cons.
  - jnwatson 6y ago
    Many people are trying to deceive you. Sometimes consciously and sometimes not. Every interaction, whether you realize it or not, is a sales process.
- cyborgx7 6y ago
  This insidious equivocating between friends recommending things to each-other and companies buying themselves a piece of your attention for profit by advertising apologists is pretty gross.
  - jnwatson 6y ago
    I saw a Facebook ad for a intro course on FPGA programming. I clicked on it; I paid the guy some money to watch his videos. It was something I was interested in; I wouldn't have know about it without the advertising. We had an exchange of services for money. How is this wrong? Sure there are deceitful practices in advertising, but you're painting everyone with the same broad brush. IMHO, it is best to address the negative aspects of advertising instead of restricting communication from vendors to potential consumers.
Retric 6y ago
A sign outside a gas station is advertising, but it’s hardly going to convince someone to buy a car just to buy gas from them or drove dramatically more. Unfortunately, more widespread and effective advertising has real costs that end up raising prices. Coke’s premium over sugar water is backed up by their advertising spend. Tracking, manipulation, etc are major downsides to advertising. But, even purely informative adds on TV aren’t free.
- falcolas 6y ago
  "Last gas station for N miles!" Whether true or not, it will convince you to top off your tank, and potentially purchase some things from the shop.
  - Retric 6y ago
    Yet, they don’t convince you to wildly increase your driving or top up a nearly full tank. To change how much gas you’re buying in a lifetime it would need to change how far you drive. On the other hand T-Shirt advertising can convince you to buy significantly more clothes in a lifetime. It’s a qualitative difference even if I didn’t express it well.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      If you're going past a gas station, you're already driving - they want you to come to stop at their gas station. > To change how much gas you’re buying in a lifetime it would need to change how far you drive. City/state/national tourism bureaus are taking care of that part. With help from the automobile industry's marketing arm.
      - Retric 6y ago
        You’re trying to lump different advertising together. I am specifically talking about gas station signs. People in EV’s don’t suddenly buy gas because they saw a large BP logo. That choice was made when you bought the car. It’s little different than a hospital sign. People don’t think hey there’s a hospital maybe I should have this gaping chest wound taken care of. Which is why they end up as H’s with a simple arrow rather than list out which specific hospital etc.
mbesto 6y ago
> designed to convince you to do things you wouldn't normally do. When I search "good USB charger" in Google and get an ad, click the ad and make a purchase for a USB charger, how was that nothing something I normally would do? There's absolutely deceptive advertising, but to pretend all advertising is "intrusive" and "convincing you to do things you wouldn't normally do" is disingenuous.
- falcolas 6y ago
  How much toothpaste do you use on your toothbrush? Something the size of a pea, or the whole length of your toothbrush? 'Cause all you need is the first, but most people do the second. Why? Ads. Why do people have such a great impression of John Deere tractors? To the point where there's a whole culture of "green iron" and other companies had huge trouble breaking into the market? Ads. Ads going back to childhood in the form of toys. Why do folks trust some brands, and not others? Why is brand recognition such an influential thing when it comes to making purchasing decisions? Why do children beg their parents for certain toys? Why do adults pick TGI Friday's over the diner next door? Ads. EDIT: I think it's worth flipping the question a bit as well. Why would companies pay for ads if they had no value, if they did not change our behavior? If we'd do something naturally, there would be no need for ads in the first place.
  - mbesto 6y ago
    > if they did not change our behavior? If we'd do something naturally, there would be no need for ads in the first place. How would you find a USB charger brand if you were unaware of any to begin with? > Why do folks trust some brands, and not others? So then why even have a brand to begin with? Are you suggesting we just ban all advertising altogether? When you start a new company, new market, new idea, then what would you suggest that isn't advertising for a company to do to explain to customers what it is you do and how you may help them?
    - falcolas 6y ago
      There is a vast world of difference between putting out to the public "I sell X" and following you around the internet to auctioning a consumer's eyeballs to the highest ad bidder. Or intentionally changing your behavior with their ads (the toothpaste one being the simplest to understand). Trying to conflate the two as equivalent when someone says "ads are toxic" in the context of the online ad industry is doing the argument no good. > How would you find a USB charger brand if you were unaware of any to begin with? Why search for a brand, and not a high quality, well reviewed USB charger? To use the original example, googling for "good USB charger" and then buying one via an ad will not give you any guarantees that the USB charger is good. All it guarantees is that they paid the most to get your eyeballs on that particular search.
lurkerasdfh8 6y ago
> only considered ethical because we've been doing it for so long. my take on this is to call advertisements/marketing as "lies" on regular conversations. "I watched a lie from nike the other day..."
andrewingram 6y ago
I have similar issues with advertising, but i'd also ask for the following question, because it's a sincere one and I don't have a good answer for it. I work at a company that is trying to introduce a new kind of product, one that I sincerely believe is intended to help people rather than _just_ make money (this is unusual for me, because i'm usually extremely cynical about motivations). The problem is that most potential customers we could help aren't even aware that what we're offering exists, they may not even think to find out if such a thing exists. How do we create awareness of this thing without advertising?

jnwatson 6y ago

But so is essentially all interaction with your environment. Every interaction you have with essentially everyone might change your behavior. The only difference is the scale. The problem is that the power of targeted advertising has been democratized (irony intended) to allow everyone to do it. It is capable enough that it can end peaceful democracies.

falcolas 6y ago
> But so is essentially all interaction with your environment My every interaction with my environment doesn't involve millions of trained professionals bent to the sole purpose of influencing my actions. Outside of ads, that is.
- antasvara 6y ago
  Might be a difference of opinion, but what do you propose as an alternative to funding free things like news sites, videos on the internet, and even cable television channels. I'm not saying that ads are particularly ethical, but I struggle to think of a replacement that isn't more paywalls. This is an easy decision to make for people that have the money, but is much harder for the majority of Americans. A Vox article [1] estimates that this would add an average of $35 a month, assuming every US adult paid this cost (which is a bold assumption). [1] https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/6/24/18715421/internet-free-data-ads-cost https://www.vox.com/recode/2019/6/24/18715421/internet-free-...
chakhs 6y ago
Only if you think everyone around you is trying to deceive you. Ads are designed to push you into taking unreasonable and uninformed decisions by showing advantages only and amplifying them and deliberately hiding the cons.
- jnwatson 6y ago
  Many people are trying to deceive you. Sometimes consciously and sometimes not. Every interaction, whether you realize it or not, is a sales process.
cyborgx7 6y ago
This insidious equivocating between friends recommending things to each-other and companies buying themselves a piece of your attention for profit by advertising apologists is pretty gross.
- jnwatson 6y ago
  I saw a Facebook ad for a intro course on FPGA programming. I clicked on it; I paid the guy some money to watch his videos. It was something I was interested in; I wouldn't have know about it without the advertising. We had an exchange of services for money. How is this wrong? Sure there are deceitful practices in advertising, but you're painting everyone with the same broad brush. IMHO, it is best to address the negative aspects of advertising instead of restricting communication from vendors to potential consumers.

Retric 6y ago

A sign outside a gas station is advertising, but it’s hardly going to convince someone to buy a car just to buy gas from them or drove dramatically more. Unfortunately, more widespread and effective advertising has real costs that end up raising prices. Coke’s premium over sugar water is backed up by their advertising spend. Tracking, manipulation, etc are major downsides to advertising. But, even purely informative adds on TV aren’t free.

falcolas 6y ago
"Last gas station for N miles!" Whether true or not, it will convince you to top off your tank, and potentially purchase some things from the shop.
- Retric 6y ago
  Yet, they don’t convince you to wildly increase your driving or top up a nearly full tank. To change how much gas you’re buying in a lifetime it would need to change how far you drive. On the other hand T-Shirt advertising can convince you to buy significantly more clothes in a lifetime. It’s a qualitative difference even if I didn’t express it well.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    If you're going past a gas station, you're already driving - they want you to come to stop at their gas station. > To change how much gas you’re buying in a lifetime it would need to change how far you drive. City/state/national tourism bureaus are taking care of that part. With help from the automobile industry's marketing arm.
    - Retric 6y ago
      You’re trying to lump different advertising together. I am specifically talking about gas station signs. People in EV’s don’t suddenly buy gas because they saw a large BP logo. That choice was made when you bought the car. It’s little different than a hospital sign. People don’t think hey there’s a hospital maybe I should have this gaping chest wound taken care of. Which is why they end up as H’s with a simple arrow rather than list out which specific hospital etc.

mbesto 6y ago

> designed to convince you to do things you wouldn't normally do. When I search "good USB charger" in Google and get an ad, click the ad and make a purchase for a USB charger, how was that nothing something I normally would do? There's absolutely deceptive advertising, but to pretend all advertising is "intrusive" and "convincing you to do things you wouldn't normally do" is disingenuous.

falcolas 6y ago
How much toothpaste do you use on your toothbrush? Something the size of a pea, or the whole length of your toothbrush? 'Cause all you need is the first, but most people do the second. Why? Ads. Why do people have such a great impression of John Deere tractors? To the point where there's a whole culture of "green iron" and other companies had huge trouble breaking into the market? Ads. Ads going back to childhood in the form of toys. Why do folks trust some brands, and not others? Why is brand recognition such an influential thing when it comes to making purchasing decisions? Why do children beg their parents for certain toys? Why do adults pick TGI Friday's over the diner next door? Ads. EDIT: I think it's worth flipping the question a bit as well. Why would companies pay for ads if they had no value, if they did not change our behavior? If we'd do something naturally, there would be no need for ads in the first place.
- mbesto 6y ago
  > if they did not change our behavior? If we'd do something naturally, there would be no need for ads in the first place. How would you find a USB charger brand if you were unaware of any to begin with? > Why do folks trust some brands, and not others? So then why even have a brand to begin with? Are you suggesting we just ban all advertising altogether? When you start a new company, new market, new idea, then what would you suggest that isn't advertising for a company to do to explain to customers what it is you do and how you may help them?
  - falcolas 6y ago
    There is a vast world of difference between putting out to the public "I sell X" and following you around the internet to auctioning a consumer's eyeballs to the highest ad bidder. Or intentionally changing your behavior with their ads (the toothpaste one being the simplest to understand). Trying to conflate the two as equivalent when someone says "ads are toxic" in the context of the online ad industry is doing the argument no good. > How would you find a USB charger brand if you were unaware of any to begin with? Why search for a brand, and not a high quality, well reviewed USB charger? To use the original example, googling for "good USB charger" and then buying one via an ad will not give you any guarantees that the USB charger is good. All it guarantees is that they paid the most to get your eyeballs on that particular search.

lurkerasdfh8 6y ago

> only considered ethical because we've been doing it for so long. my take on this is to call advertisements/marketing as "lies" on regular conversations. "I watched a lie from nike the other day..."

andrewingram 6y ago

I have similar issues with advertising, but i'd also ask for the following question, because it's a sincere one and I don't have a good answer for it. I work at a company that is trying to introduce a new kind of product, one that I sincerely believe is intended to help people rather than _just_ make money (this is unusual for me, because i'm usually extremely cynical about motivations). The problem is that most potential customers we could help aren't even aware that what we're offering exists, they may not even think to find out if such a thing exists. How do we create awareness of this thing without advertising?