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I always wondered how you go from a thriving city to an 'ancient ruin'. A lot of cities in India have been continuously occupied for over 2000 years (Kalyan, Uj

I always wondered how you go from a thriving city to an 'ancient ruin'. A lot of cities in India have been continuously occupied for over 2000 years (Kalyan, Ujjain, Bharuch, Patna). A lot of them don't have any obvious ruins from that era (most old buildings tend to be from the medieval era or rock cut caves/temples/monasteries that were forgotten about in later eras) compared to a place like Hampi or Angkor (although both cities were abandoned in the medieval era). My guess is that for a city to have relatively well preserved ruins, it has to be completely abandoned due to some calamity. If a city is continuously occupied, old buildings get incrementally replaced by newer buildings, and very few old buildings get preserved. Even with Rome, my theory checks out. We have a lot of Roman ruins because Rome was heavily depopulated after the Roman empire collapsed. A lot of buildings were probably abandoned and then buried by dirt over time (like the Roman Forum). The only other preserved ruins were buildings that were repurpose d (Agrippa's Pantheon, Colessium, aqueducts, etc).

twelvechairs 5y ago
Big difference in cities built of masonry and those built of wood. Eastern Asia had many of the largest cities through history but they were often wooden and thus much less has survived than Rome
- pratik661 5y ago
  That makes sense. Hampi and Angkor had a lot of buildings made out of stone. But what about Patna and Mathura? Ancient primary source accounts mention lots of buildings made out of stone.
  - hackerbabz 5y ago
    Angkor Wat is not nearly as old as your Indian examples. It's similar age to Notre Dame cathedral. The main temple complex is the best preserved building in the area with some others that I think came later less well preserved. There are many many smaller temples very poorly preserved. As for a "city" of Angkor, it's now Siem Reap and there isn't much of the ancient city within the modern city.
TuringNYC 5y ago
>> My guess is that for a city to have relatively well preserved ruins, it has to be completely abandoned due to some calamity. If a city is continuously occupied, old buildings get incrementally replaced by newer buildings, and very few old buildings get preserved. The calamity could also be economic. It is heartbreaking to see cities in industrial towns hollowed out -- from what I understand due to a major factory closure. It has been some decades for these cities, so not quite "ancient ruins" but eventually they would turn into that I imagine. However, modern wood homes are unlikely to survive the ages of course.
- pratik661 5y ago
  So in 4000 years, archeologists digging up the the Midwest will theorize that Ohio valley was the center of a vast industrial society. They will theorize that it may be linked to a settlement that was known in ancient times as the mythical city of "New York", which is referenced several times in ancient literature, of which no ruins have been found.
  - matthewdgreen 5y ago
    A colleague’s son specializes in stripping old industrial sites that are no longer in use. They move into some abandoned part of the rust belt and systematically tear out every piece of scrap metal they can find. They’ve been pretty busy. I’m sure the concrete and brick stays behind, but the in situ lifespan of useful, durable materials is much shorter than you’d think.
Spooky23 5y ago
Take a drive in many US cities. There are many empty high-rises that are unlikely to be filled. Eventually, there's going to be a demolish or "stabilize in place" decision for lots of these places. There's a big warehouse in the downtown of my city that's been abandoned for 30 years -- it was a refrigerated produce warehouse that had a built in train terminal. It will never be demolished unless someone with unlimited pockets like Federal government wants to build something there.
- neutronicus 5y ago
  On a smaller scale, I live in Baltimore and there are whole blocks of boarded-up three-story brick row-homes, some of them with the ceilings collapsed and trees growing up through them, and big wooden buttresses in place to keep the facade from collapsing. I grew up around here, and spent a half-decade in Colorado. It feels like such a waste seeing the densely-packed tract housing appearing in the middle of the plains there as I drive by boarded-up crumbling ruins here.
  - Spooky23 5y ago
    Agreed. The fate of really interesting cities like Baltimore is this weird intersection of politics, policy and economics. It seems so wasteful and needless.
lazypenguin 5y ago
I can recommend the “fall of civilizations” podcast. The common theme was some kind of pressure (ecological, geopolitical, etc.) causing a rapid decline in population.
SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
> A lot of cities in India have been continuously occupied for over 2000 years (Kalyan, Ujjain, Bharuch, Patna). A lot of them don't have any obvious ruins from that era A lot of ancient ruins are _under_ the city itself. e.g Rome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio Italy: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52818746 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52818746 It's sometimes theorised that the ground level in cities rises over the centuries, due to sheer accumulation of material. https://www.quora.com/Why-over-the-centuries-cities-such-as-Rome-Edinburgh-and-Istanbul-have-risen-their-ground-level-What-process-governs-this https://www.quora.com/Why-over-the-centuries-cities-such-as-... https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-ground-level-of-Ancient-Rome-so-much-lower-than-the-modern-ground-level https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-ground-level-of-Ancient-Rom... Because people build over the ruins and rubble; and put a new layer of surfacing on the roads periodically.
- stephenhuey 5y ago
  I've long been curious about the barely excavated ruins of the Aztec capital Tenochtitlan under modern-day Mexico City: http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20191007-mexico-citys-secret-underground-world http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20191007-mexico-citys-secret...
- ardit33 5y ago
  Yes, in some parts of Europe it is almost impossible doing some digging for infrastructure without coming into some old structure.... usually mosaics, old villas, old graves, etc...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
    > It is almost impossible doing some digging for infrastructure without coming into some old structure.... usually mosaics, old villas, old graves, etc... Or if you're _very_ unlucky, an unexploded bomb from the 1940s in a questionable state of chemical decay. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/15/london-2012-olympics-bomb-nazi_n_1346801.html https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/15/london-2012-olym... https://www.dw.com/en/500-kilogram-wwii-bomb-sparks-evacuation-in-frankfurt/a-55836768 https://www.dw.com/en/500-kilogram-wwii-bomb-sparks-evacuati... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43027472 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43027472 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-24799937 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-24799937
N1H1L 5y ago
Or war. Some of the oldest cities in the world are in the Levant - Aleppo and Damascus in Syria. Or Jericho in Palestine. The trouble is that those cities also have had gone through significant conflict, so ruins tend to not survive.
- lumost 5y ago
  It’s unclear how many of these cities survive due to the conditions of the desert vs. other areas. The Mediterranean and Middle East are relatively dry climates which would favor stone construction. Temperate and wet climates may see more wood construction. Wood will not last long in a temperate or wet climate... Looking at colonial New England the main ruins are stone fences separating property, nails, and grave stones along with a few preserved homes. I’d be curious if it’s practical to tell the size of any of the population centers for pre columbian New England given how little remains of the colonial period.
asdff 5y ago
There are old towns in the U.S. that are ancient ruins today, too. People go where they can make a livelihood and sometimes that means leaving town when the mine closes.
ardit33 5y ago
Nah.... Just look at Detroit. That's a modern version of a city in Ruin... Rome didn't get abandoned in a day. It took about 100 years, to go from 1 mill, to between 30-60k inhabitants. The most visible today's comparison would be Detroit (or parts of it). Smaller structures just disappear, but the large ones remain and look like relics: Detroit's old station: https://media.wired.com/photos/5b28344e11196626aaeb16c4/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/GettyImages-596955474.jpg https://media.wired.com/photos/5b28344e11196626aaeb16c4/mast... Ford buys Detroit's deserted, century-old train station https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ford-buys-michigan-central-depot-detroit-train-station-2018-06-11/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ford-buys-michigan-central-depo... Also, many cities do have old antique buildings in them (coliseums, or amphitheaters), and mediterranean europe is dotted with them. From Spain to Italy to Greece and Albania. That doesn't mean that the people left from the cities. It just meant that they stopped having a purpose due to economic shortages, and just went to decay into old crumbling buildings that are just there for the locals. Very similar to old ware houses, or abandoned train stations, or stadiums, in industrial cities.
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  Ruins of Detroit: http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit Plenty of other ruins in the US: https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20141208-amazing-photos-of-americas-ruins https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20141208-amazing-photos-...

twelvechairs 5y ago

Big difference in cities built of masonry and those built of wood. Eastern Asia had many of the largest cities through history but they were often wooden and thus much less has survived than Rome

pratik661 5y ago
That makes sense. Hampi and Angkor had a lot of buildings made out of stone. But what about Patna and Mathura? Ancient primary source accounts mention lots of buildings made out of stone.
- hackerbabz 5y ago
  Angkor Wat is not nearly as old as your Indian examples. It's similar age to Notre Dame cathedral. The main temple complex is the best preserved building in the area with some others that I think came later less well preserved. There are many many smaller temples very poorly preserved. As for a "city" of Angkor, it's now Siem Reap and there isn't much of the ancient city within the modern city.

TuringNYC 5y ago

>> My guess is that for a city to have relatively well preserved ruins, it has to be completely abandoned due to some calamity. If a city is continuously occupied, old buildings get incrementally replaced by newer buildings, and very few old buildings get preserved. The calamity could also be economic. It is heartbreaking to see cities in industrial towns hollowed out -- from what I understand due to a major factory closure. It has been some decades for these cities, so not quite "ancient ruins" but eventually they would turn into that I imagine. However, modern wood homes are unlikely to survive the ages of course.

pratik661 5y ago
So in 4000 years, archeologists digging up the the Midwest will theorize that Ohio valley was the center of a vast industrial society. They will theorize that it may be linked to a settlement that was known in ancient times as the mythical city of "New York", which is referenced several times in ancient literature, of which no ruins have been found.
- matthewdgreen 5y ago
  A colleague’s son specializes in stripping old industrial sites that are no longer in use. They move into some abandoned part of the rust belt and systematically tear out every piece of scrap metal they can find. They’ve been pretty busy. I’m sure the concrete and brick stays behind, but the in situ lifespan of useful, durable materials is much shorter than you’d think.

Spooky23 5y ago

Take a drive in many US cities. There are many empty high-rises that are unlikely to be filled. Eventually, there's going to be a demolish or "stabilize in place" decision for lots of these places. There's a big warehouse in the downtown of my city that's been abandoned for 30 years -- it was a refrigerated produce warehouse that had a built in train terminal. It will never be demolished unless someone with unlimited pockets like Federal government wants to build something there.

neutronicus 5y ago
On a smaller scale, I live in Baltimore and there are whole blocks of boarded-up three-story brick row-homes, some of them with the ceilings collapsed and trees growing up through them, and big wooden buttresses in place to keep the facade from collapsing. I grew up around here, and spent a half-decade in Colorado. It feels like such a waste seeing the densely-packed tract housing appearing in the middle of the plains there as I drive by boarded-up crumbling ruins here.
- Spooky23 5y ago
  Agreed. The fate of really interesting cities like Baltimore is this weird intersection of politics, policy and economics. It seems so wasteful and needless.

lazypenguin 5y ago

I can recommend the “fall of civilizations” podcast. The common theme was some kind of pressure (ecological, geopolitical, etc.) causing a rapid decline in population.

SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago

> A lot of cities in India have been continuously occupied for over 2000 years (Kalyan, Ujjain, Bharuch, Patna). A lot of them don't have any obvious ruins from that era A lot of ancient ruins are _under_ the city itself. e.g Rome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Testaccio Italy: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52818746 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52818746 It's sometimes theorised that the ground level in cities rises over the centuries, due to sheer accumulation of material. https://www.quora.com/Why-over-the-centuries-cities-such-as-Rome-Edinburgh-and-Istanbul-have-risen-their-ground-level-What-process-governs-this https://www.quora.com/Why-over-the-centuries-cities-such-as-... https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-ground-level-of-Ancient-Rome-so-much-lower-than-the-modern-ground-level https://www.quora.com/Why-is-the-ground-level-of-Ancient-Rom... Because people build over the ruins and rubble; and put a new layer of surfacing on the roads periodically.

stephenhuey 5y ago
I've long been curious about the barely excavated ruins of the Aztec capital Tenochtitlan under modern-day Mexico City: http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20191007-mexico-citys-secret-underground-world http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20191007-mexico-citys-secret...
ardit33 5y ago
Yes, in some parts of Europe it is almost impossible doing some digging for infrastructure without coming into some old structure.... usually mosaics, old villas, old graves, etc...
- SideburnsOfDoom 5y ago
  > It is almost impossible doing some digging for infrastructure without coming into some old structure.... usually mosaics, old villas, old graves, etc... Or if you're _very_ unlucky, an unexploded bomb from the 1940s in a questionable state of chemical decay. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/15/london-2012-olympics-bomb-nazi_n_1346801.html https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/03/15/london-2012-olym... https://www.dw.com/en/500-kilogram-wwii-bomb-sparks-evacuation-in-frankfurt/a-55836768 https://www.dw.com/en/500-kilogram-wwii-bomb-sparks-evacuati... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43027472 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43027472 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-24799937 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-24799937

N1H1L 5y ago

Or war. Some of the oldest cities in the world are in the Levant - Aleppo and Damascus in Syria. Or Jericho in Palestine. The trouble is that those cities also have had gone through significant conflict, so ruins tend to not survive.

lumost 5y ago
It’s unclear how many of these cities survive due to the conditions of the desert vs. other areas. The Mediterranean and Middle East are relatively dry climates which would favor stone construction. Temperate and wet climates may see more wood construction. Wood will not last long in a temperate or wet climate... Looking at colonial New England the main ruins are stone fences separating property, nails, and grave stones along with a few preserved homes. I’d be curious if it’s practical to tell the size of any of the population centers for pre columbian New England given how little remains of the colonial period.

asdff 5y ago

There are old towns in the U.S. that are ancient ruins today, too. People go where they can make a livelihood and sometimes that means leaving town when the mine closes.

ardit33 5y ago

Nah.... Just look at Detroit. That's a modern version of a city in Ruin... Rome didn't get abandoned in a day. It took about 100 years, to go from 1 mill, to between 30-60k inhabitants. The most visible today's comparison would be Detroit (or parts of it). Smaller structures just disappear, but the large ones remain and look like relics: Detroit's old station: https://media.wired.com/photos/5b28344e11196626aaeb16c4/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/GettyImages-596955474.jpg https://media.wired.com/photos/5b28344e11196626aaeb16c4/mast... Ford buys Detroit's deserted, century-old train station https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ford-buys-michigan-central-depot-detroit-train-station-2018-06-11/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ford-buys-michigan-central-depo... Also, many cities do have old antique buildings in them (coliseums, or amphitheaters), and mediterranean europe is dotted with them. From Spain to Italy to Greece and Albania. That doesn't mean that the people left from the cities. It just meant that they stopped having a purpose due to economic shortages, and just went to decay into old crumbling buildings that are just there for the locals. Very similar to old ware houses, or abandoned train stations, or stadiums, in industrial cities.

rufus_foreman 5y ago
Ruins of Detroit: http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit http://www.marchandmeffre.com/detroit Plenty of other ruins in the US: https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20141208-amazing-photos-of-americas-ruins https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20141208-amazing-photos-...