6 ms·

I personally think it involves a lot the nordic mentality of thinking carefully before acting, which in the long run leads to a society with much fewer problems

by zibzab 5y ago

I personally think it involves a lot the nordic mentality of thinking carefully before acting, which in the long run leads to a society with much fewer problems. See for example the prison system: do want people to suffer or do we want them to return as reasonably normal members of the society? Also, let me add that I find the article slightly offensive.

ochrist 5y ago
I am honestly curious. What in the article do you find offensive?
- zibzab 5y ago
  The stereotypes all over the article
  - TulliusCicero 5y ago
    If you're comparing countries in this way, generalizations are basically mandatory. That said, nothing in there felt particularly mean to me.
  - yunohn 5y ago
    > nordic mentality of thinking carefully before acting To me, your comment also sounds like a stereotype.
happytoexplain 5y ago
Agreed, but note however that, for many people, no amount of careful thinking will bring them to the latter decision in your example. They want the imprisoned to suffer - to them, that's the whole point ("deterrent", they'll say).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Knufferlbert 5y ago
  I think the "suffer"/"rehabilitation" is only one of the important aspects. There is a selfish component as well, do I want to have low crime. A successful return to society facilitates that (life sentences for all is the only other alternative). The difference between doing what is right (whatever that means), or what is effective (which is much easier to measure). Though the blatant disregard for human life in general in the US is quite astonishing for a "western" country.
  - Clewza313 5y ago
    The rights vs outcomes chasm weirds out many visitors to the US. For example, in California every hotel and apartment pool has to be outfitted at considerable expense so any rich but disabled inhabitants could theoretically enjoy their right a dip in the pool while in their wheelchair, although I've never seen these conveyances actually used. Meanwhile, there are mentally ill homeless people outside the hotel, enjoying the freedom of begging for money, camping on the sidewalk and using BART escalators as toilets.
    - cto_of_antifa 5y ago
      I don't quite follow the part about homeless people.
- MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
  I think it depends. If you murder someone, you shouldn't be allowed to live. Likewise with heinous crimes like Anders Brevik. Why he wasn't put to death is still mind boggling to me. For people who do serious crimes but maybe aren't as severe, that would warrant prison. I just think the US's system of perpetual imprisonment leads to a worse system overall. I personally have a threshold that if I were to be jailed for longer than a specified amount I'd just kill myself. There's no sense in it. People who want justice also want you to get Shawshank Redemptioned but without the happy ending which is even sadder than when the criminal gets caught. It's why I think the death penalty is vital in human society. Torturing people with futile boredom or potential assault for the rest of their life is how you destroy someone's psyche to the point of complete psychopathy.
  - thatwasunusual 5y ago
    > If you murder someone, you shouldn't be allowed to live. So if the government murder someone, it should not be allowed to exist? > Likewise with heinous crimes like Anders Brevik. Why he wasn't put to death is still mind boggling to me. Why? > I just think the US's system of perpetual imprisonment leads to a worse system overall. You contradict yourself; you want harser sentences, but also thinks that harser sentences "leads to a worse system overall."
    - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
      Death is not harsher than "25 to life." Being a rat in a cage told to exist but your purpose is futile is no life worth living. I also do firmly believe that even if the wrong person is chosen for the death penalty, it's still significantly more humane than throwing an innocent person in jail for decades stealing their life away in an even worse way. Lastly, if you don't think Anders Brevik shouldn't be put to death, I'd argue morally you're the one purporting immorality.
JI00912 5y ago
> See for example the prison system: do want people to suffer or do we want them to return as reasonably normal members of the society? Unfortunately, this idea has not worked out. If you look at people who have been convicted a few times, reoffending rates approach 100% for Sweden. Then there's all the suffering for the victims who get no help what so ever from the police who pretty much just let everyone go. For instance, breaking a restraining order might at most get that person a fine. Although in reality the risk of actually getting that fine is small because prosecutors don't generally bother prosecuting someone to just get them a fine. Basically, if someone wants to kill you, the police won't help you.
- jolux 5y ago
  Where are you getting the data that recidivism rates are close to 100%?
  - JI00912 5y ago
    Mostly Brottsforebyggande Rådet. You have to dig into their statistics though because they tend to like publishing what looks good. Edit: Also personal experience, unfortunately. Edit 2: > Where are you getting the data that recidivism rates are close to 100%? Recidivism rates for people with a few convictions.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - klyrs 5y ago
      Begging the question. People with "a few convictions" are certainly going to have a high rate of recidivism, by definition.
      - JI00912 5y ago
        Not at all. We might for example see recidivism drop off after a few convictions. That would be the case if prison could reeducate people.

by zibzab 5y ago

ochrist 5y ago

I am honestly curious. What in the article do you find offensive?

zibzab 5y ago
The stereotypes all over the article
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  If you're comparing countries in this way, generalizations are basically mandatory. That said, nothing in there felt particularly mean to me.
- yunohn 5y ago
  > nordic mentality of thinking carefully before acting To me, your comment also sounds like a stereotype.

happytoexplain 5y ago

Agreed, but note however that, for many people, no amount of careful thinking will bring them to the latter decision in your example. They want the imprisoned to suffer - to them, that's the whole point ("deterrent", they'll say).

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Knufferlbert 5y ago
I think the "suffer"/"rehabilitation" is only one of the important aspects. There is a selfish component as well, do I want to have low crime. A successful return to society facilitates that (life sentences for all is the only other alternative). The difference between doing what is right (whatever that means), or what is effective (which is much easier to measure). Though the blatant disregard for human life in general in the US is quite astonishing for a "western" country.
- Clewza313 5y ago
  The rights vs outcomes chasm weirds out many visitors to the US. For example, in California every hotel and apartment pool has to be outfitted at considerable expense so any rich but disabled inhabitants could theoretically enjoy their right a dip in the pool while in their wheelchair, although I've never seen these conveyances actually used. Meanwhile, there are mentally ill homeless people outside the hotel, enjoying the freedom of begging for money, camping on the sidewalk and using BART escalators as toilets.
  - cto_of_antifa 5y ago
    I don't quite follow the part about homeless people.
MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
I think it depends. If you murder someone, you shouldn't be allowed to live. Likewise with heinous crimes like Anders Brevik. Why he wasn't put to death is still mind boggling to me. For people who do serious crimes but maybe aren't as severe, that would warrant prison. I just think the US's system of perpetual imprisonment leads to a worse system overall. I personally have a threshold that if I were to be jailed for longer than a specified amount I'd just kill myself. There's no sense in it. People who want justice also want you to get Shawshank Redemptioned but without the happy ending which is even sadder than when the criminal gets caught. It's why I think the death penalty is vital in human society. Torturing people with futile boredom or potential assault for the rest of their life is how you destroy someone's psyche to the point of complete psychopathy.
- thatwasunusual 5y ago
  > If you murder someone, you shouldn't be allowed to live. So if the government murder someone, it should not be allowed to exist? > Likewise with heinous crimes like Anders Brevik. Why he wasn't put to death is still mind boggling to me. Why? > I just think the US's system of perpetual imprisonment leads to a worse system overall. You contradict yourself; you want harser sentences, but also thinks that harser sentences "leads to a worse system overall."
  - MeinBlutIstBlau 5y ago
    Death is not harsher than "25 to life." Being a rat in a cage told to exist but your purpose is futile is no life worth living. I also do firmly believe that even if the wrong person is chosen for the death penalty, it's still significantly more humane than throwing an innocent person in jail for decades stealing their life away in an even worse way. Lastly, if you don't think Anders Brevik shouldn't be put to death, I'd argue morally you're the one purporting immorality.

JI00912 5y ago

> See for example the prison system: do want people to suffer or do we want them to return as reasonably normal members of the society? Unfortunately, this idea has not worked out. If you look at people who have been convicted a few times, reoffending rates approach 100% for Sweden. Then there's all the suffering for the victims who get no help what so ever from the police who pretty much just let everyone go. For instance, breaking a restraining order might at most get that person a fine. Although in reality the risk of actually getting that fine is small because prosecutors don't generally bother prosecuting someone to just get them a fine. Basically, if someone wants to kill you, the police won't help you.

jolux 5y ago
Where are you getting the data that recidivism rates are close to 100%?
- JI00912 5y ago
  Mostly Brottsforebyggande Rådet. You have to dig into their statistics though because they tend to like publishing what looks good. Edit: Also personal experience, unfortunately. Edit 2: > Where are you getting the data that recidivism rates are close to 100%? Recidivism rates for people with a few convictions.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Begging the question. People with "a few convictions" are certainly going to have a high rate of recidivism, by definition.
    - JI00912 5y ago
      Not at all. We might for example see recidivism drop off after a few convictions. That would be the case if prison could reeducate people.