32 ms·

Starting a crypto project

369 points by grey-area 6y ago

PragmaticPulp 6y ago
Can confirm. I’m friends with a group of very smart distributed systems engineers who were excited to launch an actually useful crypto project that gets talked about here from time to time. As much as they’re excited about the technology itself, very few people are actually interested in using it. Instead, their business seems to revolve around the value of the utility tokens for their project. Few people are buying the utility tokens to pay for the service. They’re buying them to horde so they can resell to other speculators when the price goes up. They have a lot of tokens in circulation, but only a small number of them get used to pay for the service. Many of them are sitting in the wallets of exchanges where they get traded back and forth but never come near the blockchain. Investors only care about getting more press releases out so they can pump up the price of their discounted tokens, which have a shortened lockup period relative to something like stocks. It’s almost like a pump-and-dump scheme for investors. Maybe their underlying project will become popular in the future, but the volatility of the token price makes it increasingly unattractive for companies that want to actually use it.
- mkohlmyr 6y ago
  > Investors only care about getting more press releases out so they can pump up the price of their discounted tokens, which have a shortened lockup period relative to something like stocks. It’s almost like a pump-and-dump scheme for investors. "almost" If even useful services are being abused for speculation, it's time to realise the entire space is fundamentally broken. We've already seen massive fraud in the space, it's only a matter of time before people who fundamentally don't understand what they are "investing in" are left holding bags. It will necessarily collapse because of how it's being used. (imo)
  - berkes 6y ago
    How is this any different from the "web tech" space at large? Where investors will push towards "data-hoarding", privacy-invasion, dark patterns and/or addictiveness or other psychological "abuse", more often than not?
    - tnzm 6y ago
      That's why it's the investment space that needs disruption - which is why crypto is met with so much pushback on HN. A year ago, crypto-related stories made front page much less often, if at all.
      - verdverm 6y ago
        2017 was very different. Crypto type stories frequented the front page with technical marvels. Then a few things happened... 1) we evaluated 2) this scamconomy arose 3) the bubble burst. I was excited then, when it was new to me, but then I learnt the truth about blockchain
      - tinyhouse 6y ago
        Because people here try to understand the technology and its usage before riding the hype train. Most people investing in Ether for example have no idea what it even means. But when you ask them they would spit answers like "it's going to revolutionize finance..". When you ask them how, they have no answer. When you ask them for specific applications that they know of outside of the stupid NFT, they send you to Google. Yesterday someone on Youtube gave an example about a fridge that will order you eggs and milk when they run out, and everything will be done on the blockchain. Not a crypto hater. I even invest for fun and because you cannot deny the opportunity to make money rn. But don't expect people to ride the train blindly. I do think that crypto isn't going anywhere. But the current valuation of these coins is just absurd rn.
        intotheabyss 6y ago
        There are plenty of useful applications on Ethereum. Maker, Compound, Aave, dYdX, Synthetix, UMA, Uniswap to name very few.
        tinyhouse 6y ago
        Thanks. I will take a look.
        6y ago
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    Is price speculation considered abuse?
    - mkohlmyr 6y ago
      The tokens issued in this case (on of the few) have a purpose which is not speculation. If large amounts of speculation is undermining the business itself then yes I think that might qualify as a form of abuse? Happy to use an alternative term of your choice, ESL etc.
      - matheusmoreira 6y ago
        I'm not sure if the price speculation actually undermines the underlying businesses. For example, I participate in a blockchain wiki project. On the telegram there is a lot of people talking about the price but I don't feel like it diminishes the usefulness of the project. I asked questions about editing, the admins helped me out and I was able to use the platform.
- extr 6y ago
  Sounds like Chainlink
  - kayhi 6y ago
    or filecoin
    - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
      Like the OP Twitter thread said: It's universal across every crypto project that issues their own tokens. There's no reason to force customers to buy a brand new token invented out of thin air just to pay for a service that could be otherwise purchased with real money or Ethereum.
  - gge 6y ago
    What are you talking about? Chainlink is used a ton, literally powers most of defi. Its used to secure 10s of billions of $.
- monkeydust 6y ago
  Perhaps their initial approach was not the right one i.e. was the public token the right method to maximize the value of their actual offering? Maybe they need to rethink given what you have said. I know of a very similar company (might even be the same one) the telegram forum they have setup is just full of people speculating what will / might happen ...will it go to the moon... etc.. They have now moderated that out but still main reason people join the group to start with.
- hanniabu 6y ago
  Why don't you be transparent and tell us the service?
  - ipaddr 6y ago
    In many cases it is very useful. In this case does it really matter who? It could apply to almost all cryto projects.
    - hanniabu 6y ago
      Yes it does because he's saying "I swear guys this was definitely a good idea no need to confirm what I say" and then continues to bash crypto because it wasn't getting any traction. So his argument is just based on his opinion that it was a great idea, meanwhile most ideas are garbage.
- alephu5 6y ago
  This seems like it should be labeled as some kind of social law: Any blockchain will always converge towards a speculation vehicle. In much the same way, social networks almost always seem to become hookup platforms.
- notJim 6y ago
  > They’re buying them to horde so they can resell to other speculators when the price goes up. It's almost like all interest in cryptocurrency is driven by greed and speculation. I've been learning more about it, and I'm pretty convinced this is the case. Go into any crypto space, and all people are talking about is yield, price action, how much their tokens have grown etc. I think the only thing I've seen that isn't purely about speculation is NFTs, oddly enough, which seem to be basically a fad.
  - wonderwonder 6y ago
    To be fair though that's most things. That's the very purpose of the stock market. When you buy a stock most of the time most people don't care what the company it represents does, they just want the stock to go up. Same thing can be applied to most things there are vast warehouses full of art people will never see as its just owned as a tax dodge / speculation. Heck most of us work jobs we hate for nothing but money. Greed / speculation and the need for income make the world go round.
    - XorNot 6y ago
      All those things still produce tangible goods at the end though, is the difference. I can hate my job but at the end of the day I still created value for my employer. Companies on the stock market still create actual value for people, even if shareholders don't particularly care how they do it.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - X6S1x6Okd1st 6y ago
        Does Facebook produce tangible goods?
        jokethrowaway 6y ago
        Yes, a social network
- wmf 6y ago
  Few people are buying the utility tokens to pay for the service. They’re buying them to hoard so they can resell to other speculators That's not a utility token. If you want to create a true utility token, make it stable and you won't have to worry about speculation.
  - zaphar 6y ago
    This is impossible. If it can be traded it can be speculated. The value of any tradable asset is determined by how much someone is willing to trade for it and by nothing else. There is no way to make it stable other than to make it impossible to trade.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - maxwell 6y ago
      What if asset issuers ("crypto manufacturers") imposed contractual price ceilings/floors? Probably more realistic with exchanges ("authorized resellers") than individual traders. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
    - thegreatpeter 6y ago
      i agree, but there are stable coins...
- fuzzybear3965 6y ago
  SkyNet/SiaSky?
henvic 6y ago
Society is losing the opportunity to create a lot of wealth because people are investing in silly proof-of-work (or: energy/resource wasting) ideas. It's awful, and I guess we're only going to see this over once Bitcoin is surpassed by Dogecoin (I'm sure this will happen), and then Dogecoin gets surpassed by any other stupid shitcoin out there. The idea of cryptocurrency is interesting, but the idea of having no back at all makes no sense. Wasting energy is not creating wealth.
- pfisch 6y ago
  You realize doge coin is still worth less than 10% of btc by marketcap? Not sure I would count on that prediction. I mean is gme going to surpass apple?
  - henvic 6y ago
    10% over something that is pure speculation and has no value whatsoever seems like really high. If anything, this just makes me feel confident about my prediction.
    - mikeodds 6y ago
      You could reach out to the polymarket team on discord and they might be happy to setup a prediction market for this https://polymarket.com/ https://polymarket.com/ They’re crypto based but unfortunately (/s) no token
      - xur17 6y ago
        Yes, please make this market so I can take the other side of the bet.
- spottybanana 6y ago
  > It's awful, and I guess we're only going to see this over once Bitcoin is surpassed by Dogecoin (I'm sure this will happen), and then Dogecoin gets surpassed by any other stupid shitcoin out there. Just pointing out that both Doge and BTC are proof of work and consume energy in similar style with the mining process.
pattusk 6y ago
> 16. And my personal pet peeve is that, by and large, most of crypto actually does want Bitcoin to die. Perhaps not in a "I want Bitcoin to go to zero", but in a, "Bitcoin doesn't do anything and so I want its value to be rightly distributed to my project, which has real utility". This is the most frustrating thing about crypto and has been since at least 2016. Most of the projects with the highest market cap in the space either don't do anything, don't plan on doing anything and don't have any purpose. And then you have a myriad of projects that are rewriting the traditional finance playbooks. Or blockchain infrastructure projects that are laying the foundations of what could be a fully decentralized and anonymous web. And they're worth a 100th of DOGE's market cap. Granted, they might still very well be grossly overvalued. Especially at this stage of the bull market. But the fact that there's such assymetry with projects that are at best vaporware and at worse outright scams is by far the most frustrating part of crypto.
- ignoramous 6y ago
  > Most of the projects with the highest market cap in the space either don't do anything, don't plan on doing anything and don't have any purpose. The second most valued crypto-currency is Ethereum. And the entire ecosystem around it does plan on doing a lot of things, starting with decentralised finance. There are also efforts to layer a network on top of Bitcoin in a bid to counter-act Ethereum. And competing networks like Diem (Facebook, Spotify, Uber...), CENTRE (Coinbase / Circle...), Stellar (Stripe...) that aim to replace the current payments infrastructure. Then there are cross-chains like Polkadot, Cosmos, Polygon et al that try to make all of these disparate blockchains inter-programmable. Agree that pump and dump schemes seem like the norm, but that's like saying Internet has no utility and is crap because there's porn, spam, and malware all around.
  - pattusk 6y ago
    I said most because indeed most of the innovation, both technical and cultural originates from Ethereum. But DOGE, XRP, ADA, LTC, BCH, TRON, ETC. EOS, NEO, BSV are all in the top 25 and have nothing to show for it despite being some of the oldest players in the space. The L2 projects on Bitcoin are not new and they've never brought anything revolutionary. And I think BTC is fine without L2, it's a very different philosophy from ETH and I can respect that. I just don't think it does or will ever deliver the typeof value that ETH and the projects hosted on it do. Polygon, Cosmos or other innovative L1 projects like Avalanche, Algorand or HBAR all sit at 9 digit mcap - which is certainly very high but still annoyingly low when you consider that DOGE is worth 77 billion dollars and BSC, whose sole purpose is to make scams out of ETH projects and run them on a centralized chain, sits close to 100 billion dollars.
bearjaws 6y ago
"4. You realize that most of the "influencer" network of crypto is actually a cartel of individuals who all know each other and collude in pumping the same bags. They all cost around $20k-30k for a review, btw." This is the sad truth about all these people on Youtube / Twitch. I know two individuals who are sucked into their "shows" and use what they are saying as gospel. It drives me nuts because they spout off numbers like "BTC @ 100k" and theres no date given.. I just respond by saving an even more ridiculous number like "BTC @ 100bn"
user-the-name 6y ago
Always treat every single crypto project as a scam. It is one of the safest bets you can make. Everyone involved is a scammer, every exchange is untrustworthy, and nobody can be trusted. If you're trying to start an honest project in this space, you really need to ask yourself why you would put yourself in a situation where you are the only honest person in a room full of scammers.
- berkes 6y ago
  > If you're trying to start an honest project in this space, you really need to ask yourself why you would put yourself in a situation where you are the only honest person in a room full of scammers. This is one reason why I pulled the plug on my startup in the sphere. In the best case you're disadvantaged by all the scammers and liers: they can make promises, cut corners, rip investors where you are being careful, covering all bases, and trying to put a real case and working sofware out. In the worst case, your honesty is helping the scammers by adding credibility to their case.
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    Exactly. Plus, you run the risk of either getting exploited yourself by the scammers, or feeling the pressure to act more dishonestly to keep up.
- viraptor 6y ago
  That's an emotional response going the other way. Why not just think of the project itself as if the blockchain side of it never existed? Is there a real product, is there a visible progress, is the time investment happening in the development rather than empty announcements?
  - user-the-name 6y ago
    "Why not blind yourself to relevant context" is not a really a great way to make good decisions.
55555 6y ago
I started a crypto startup once (don't do it unless you're Vitalik-tier intelligent) and this is pretty damn accurate. lol
- lottin 6y ago
  Vitalik Buterin, the guy who thinks you can do quantum computing by running a quantum computer emulator on an ordinary computer [1]. Doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool to be honest... [1] https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1273957905243475968 https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/127395790524347596...
  - rodiger 6y ago
    A random tweet about a concept not being "fundamentally ridiculous" is an awfully low bar to discredit intelligence. Have a look at his blog[0] and let me know if that reinforces your belief. Besides, if you read the whole thread you'd know he's acknowledging that if we could simulate QC classically, then we'd be able to have more efficient classical search algorithms. It's an if that's likely impossible at scale but not, by definition, impossible. [0] https://vitalik.ca/ https://vitalik.ca/
    - lottin 6y ago
      It's not just a random tweet. He's had these ideas since 2013 at least. So here for more details: https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/buterins-quantum-quest/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/buterins-quantum-quest/ But I'll take a look at his blog, thanks.
      - proto-n 6y ago
        > competent observers would likely consider even that on the high side for a mathematical impossibility If the statement made by Vitalik "There's no proof that efficient classical simulation of QC is impossible" is indeed the case, then it's the linked blogpost that has discredited itself mathematically by treating this as "breaking mathematics" or a "mathematical impossibility". More like groundbreaking surprise, but there's a big difference between "unlikely" and "proven to be impossible" mathematically speaking.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
throwaway4good 6y ago
What if speculation was the use case? ... the only use case ...
- 1ark 6y ago
  Wait until you learn about derivatives and the size of it. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization-2020/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and...
fumblebee 6y ago
> 2. You aim to build a community, but in reality 90% of your telegram/discord are scammers and people asking why price is going down/accusations that you and your entire team should go to jail. I'm consistently repulsed by the lack of thoughtful discussion in crypto communities. For a space littered with intriguing technology it's endlessly frustrating that there's no HN-like forum. Instead, any community that started off that way is now filled with speculators and shillers. Take your pick for where to source your news: 1. crypto influencers on YouTube who are paid to shill, 2. forums likw Reddit filled with speculators and conmen, 3. pump and dump groups on Telegram. The greed and FOMO on display in the crypto gold-rush is deeply depressing, and for the majority who join the craze at the peak of the bull run, it'll surely end in tears.
- queuep 6y ago
  I think this depends on the coin. The IOTA discord is quite interesting, and people using the tech. Not sure IOTA will be a thing though, but I still like reading the discussions in the Discord.
- hanniabu 6y ago
  > it's endlessly frustrating that there's no HN-like forum There are communities like this, such as the crypto dev discord, the daily gwei discord, ethereum cat herders discord, etc. You're just in the wrong communities. That's like spending time on 4chan and saying "the internet sucks, it's filled with horrible people and no thoughtful discussions."
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    I do think it's scattered, but certainly there. There are many high-quality and thoughtful Twitter posters but you really have to filter. Meanwhile, I think there is room for a crypto HN since HN is actively hostile to anything positive towards crypto.
    - dekervin 6y ago
      What do you think of this as a starting point: https://datapeek.org/?explorer_view=quest https://datapeek.org/?explorer_view=quest ?
tromp 6y ago
Sounds like he's talking about tokens, rather than an honest blockchain built from scratch with no rewards for the developers other than creating innovative technology. Without a premine/instamine/devtax, there's no need to shill the coins, or care much about the price.
- vmception 6y ago
  These arbitrary distinctions don't help the asset class either. There is just as massive of a graveyard of dead chains because the dev teams could not exchange time for food and shelter.
  - tromp 6y ago
    can you provide an example of a dead coin that featured real innovation without rewarding its creators?
    - vmception 6y ago
      There is no way for this to be a productive conversation if ‘real innovation’ can always be a goal post to move. The other side of that is that I don't remember, none of this has been relevant since 2016 which is half a decade ago now. Just trudge bitcointalk for defunct chains and find one that you liked the roadmap of. There is a more quantifiable trend of market tolerance in this asset class for what founders can earn. You have an extremely antiquated view of what that can be, the impractical charity developer building a product that the communities adores and spawns into a very active network. That pretty much never happens as the dev needs to use their time to exchange for food and shelter and nobody else picks up the baton. Following that, devs attempted small dev taxes of 1-2%, the market barely tolerated that for some years, and it also wasn't good enough to fund development Following that the market tolerated larger preallocations of 30%. Then it tolerated fund raises where developers kept funds raised and large preallocations, similar to equities. Then it tolerated even more where low float assets are now commonplace, with developers keeping upwards of 99% of the asset created, keeping the funds collected, and have unlimited issuance capabilities. But there is no hard line in the sand, and not everyone has an uncomfortable relationship with money such that arbitrary thresholds determine what a founder “deserves”. It is obvious that being able to actually pay a dev team has done much more for the speed of development in this space than harping on about some irrelevant ideology. You might find it surprising (okay now I am being facetious, but it still has to be said to highlight the inanity of your last decade view), but the entire industrial era has the same aspect based on paying workers closer to the value they provide at the time and thats the only model proven to work in an economy.
emmap21 6y ago
From user experience, I personally don't see a strong benefit of crypto. It always looks like a Ponzi Scheme to me. When early users are people driven by greed than productivity, it is a HUGE problem.
- aabhay 6y ago
  Exactly. Nassim Taleb calls it an “open ponzi” — a ponzi that is openly known
  - seibelj 6y ago
    Taleb has never revealed the details of his investment portfolio. For someone who screams "I don't care - show me the returns!" it's interesting that he cannot prove that his "black swan" strategy has ever been actionable for his own or anyone's portfolio, how to use his theories to make significant money vs. normal strategies, and any proof that his hedge fund made any money during the dot-com crash which you would figure would be the prime time to make money given his public persona. Taleb got profiled in the New Yorker, his Black Swan book became popular, and he has rode that and Twitter ever since. I highly recommend people see him for what he is - a public figure that is a bullshitter like anyone else - at least until he shows proof that he is some sort of investor oracle. He has actively sued people who revealed how much money his prior fund lost, as those documents are floating around but he attacks anyone who publicly reveals them.
    - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
      Someone in the industry has a theory that he made his initial fortune by being unhedged during Black Monday[0] and benefiting from being on the "right" side and he's been coasting on that since then. Obviously hard/impossible to say, but he is definitely hypocritical when it comes to things like "skin in the game". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)
    - pdog 6y ago
      > It's interesting that he cannot prove that his "black swan" strategy has ever been actionable for his own or anyone's portfolio, how to use his theories to make significant money vs. normal strategies... Mark Spitznagel, a cofounder of Empirica (Taleb's old fund), went on to start Universa which did pretty well with similar theories (tail-risk strategies and insurance via options against extreme market risk) in both the 2008-2009 period and last year, when they booked a huge return. So there's some evidence that the theories work to produce uncorrelated (or negatively correlated) returns that outperform the market[1]. [1]: Universa's flagship "Black Swan Protection Protocol" fund has produced a mean annual return on invested capital of 76% since the firm was created in 2008. https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2020/04/13/how-a-goat-farmer-built-a-doomsday-machine-that-just-booked-a-4144-return/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2020/04/13/how-a-go...
golergka 6y ago
Reading that twitter thread, and HN discussion here, I am again reminded how the whole startup scene looked before dotcom crash: insane valuations, lots of scammers, and what little utility there is, it's mostly for illegal means. (If you're saying that there's no real utility in Bitcoin, you really should google Hydra). But don't you wish you bought Amazon stock right after IPO?
- ww520 6y ago
  Good point. But for every Amazon back then there were hundreds of Pets.com.
  - saalweachter 6y ago
    Don't forget the corollary: when do you wish you sold the Amazon stock you purchased at IPO?
  - dylkil 6y ago
    wasnt it obvious to some people back then who the real companies were, and all it took was everyone else catching up to speed to understand who the real companies were?
- mtnGoat 6y ago
  its very similar. now, as was then, people are investing in tech they don't understand and in some cases tech that may not even be buildable. :x
rapsey 6y ago
So many of the smartest people in the world work in the areas of getting people to click on ads, mining personal information, finance and crypto. Areas that at best have no social value. It is quite depressing.
- ZephyrBlu 6y ago
  Crypto has no social value? I'm not in the space, but I think crypto has immense social value.
  - reedjosh 6y ago
    Indeed. Like a decentralized social network driven not by ads, but likes that gen coins. PeakD.com Or a digital currency with the privacy and fungibility of cash. GetMonero.org Or an ad free streaming platform. Odysee.com
  - hanniabu 6y ago
    Don't waste your breath dude, HN has become a safe haven for people that like to bury their head in the sand and shit talk crypto. Yeah, anybody that's actually knowledgeable in it know that what they're saying are the same old sad tropes that the news has been training people to repeat verbatim, but they've boxed themselves in and they'll die on this hill.
    - samvher 6y ago
      Where is a place to get a broader perspective on this? I've tried subreddits for some of the projects, the cryptocurrency subreddit, and google and youtube. I have a lot of difficulty cutting through the noise. (My sense is that projects like Ethereum could be extremely valuable but that its value is currently hurt by the speculation on Ether making transactions far too costly. I'd be very interested in getting exposed to the "quality" projects that are out there but it's hard to filter.)
      - reedjosh 6y ago
        I like https://talesfromthecrypt.libsyn.com/ https://talesfromthecrypt.libsyn.com/ It's ostensibly a BTC podcast, but it's _really_ about much more including second tier networks, altcoin tech, and individual autonomy. Otherwise, getting involved in the code itself does seem to be the only avenue I've found for real learning. There's an O'Reilly book that has you build a blockchain from scratch if you're interested. I'd welcome other suggestions. Oh, also Tezos has most of Ethereum's features, but is already Proof of Stake.
FlyingSnake 6y ago
This is a brilliant thread and sums up neatly what's wrong with crypto space in general. > 90% of your telegram/discord are scammers and people asking why price is going down/accusations that you and your entire team should go to jail. So much this. The greed of get-rich-quick crowd is the biggest hurdle in the success of crypto. Remove the incentives from crypto projects and you'll see how the interest from general public decreases. After all no one cared about BTC until people figured out how to build a ponzi scheme out of it.
- intotheabyss 6y ago
  It's also one of its biggest strengths. People with real value at stake in an ecosystem will do anything possible to increase the value of their holdings, which means making the overall ecosystem more valuable through individual and team contributions, all open source contributions I might add.
teachingassist 6y ago
This is describing many of the same political problems as you get in any decentralised organisation, such as community volunteers. But, it must be worse to deal with when you have profit as a motivator rather than social benefit. Sounds like a recipe for burn-out and a risk to mental health.
knorker 6y ago
> 9. The LAW. SO MUCH LAW. SO. MUCH. LAW. > 10. There's actually a good chance that there's not a single person in your entire state or country that knows how to do your taxes. And this is because your entire business model is to get around laws that were put in place ON PURPOSE.
- ypeterholmes 6y ago
  Not really.. most of these companies aren't trying to evade the law- in fact the industry is mostly begging for regulatory clarity in order to be in compliance. Nobody wants to invest millions into something that may or may not end up being designated as illegal.
  - knorker 6y ago
    I actually think that this is at the core of most of these companies. Take anonymous money transfers for any amounts. This is why KYC/AML laws exist. If someone could show how a cryptocurrency with anonymous features can follow KYC/AML laws, I'm all ears. Begging for regulatory clarity makes it seems one-sided. It seems very clear to me that the dream the cryptocurrency companies are trying to sell is fundamentally incompatible with the intent of the regulation, even if not yet its text. What can they be left with afterwards? We'll see, but it won't be the vision they've sold. > Nobody wants to invest millions into something that may or may not end up being designated as illegal. The bitcoin blockchain has child porn on it. And BTC is explicitly designed to break KYC/AML laws. Yet people invest.
    - wmf 6y ago
      If someone could show how a cryptocurrency with anonymous features can follow KYC/AML laws, I'm all ears. Zcash has done a lot of work on this. https://z.cash/compliance/ https://z.cash/compliance/
- vmception 6y ago
  Nah. There are really dumb laws that you need a powerful defense or deterrent against. The biggest problem is that you cant talk about them, or even share the deterrents, because it makes you a target for the regulators if you do. Its actually better that the regulators simply know you have a lawyer, and that they have no idea what your legal strategy is. In finance, ignorance of the law is an excuse (“scienter”), they codified the law specifically that way for themselves, and so giving any knowledge about the law undermines the defense of your own actions, and being able to say “my lawyer made me do it” is an even better defense. This also means that each and every project has to recreate the legal guidance, until Congress explicitly makes a safe harbor route a default regulatory regime. Corporate Securities lawyers know it, exchanges and service providers know it, they carved out a niche for themselves to provide this legal service and it costs 6 figures easily. It is not a perfect defense. Many crypto project issuers are victims in this regard, with everyone onboard with this racket, they cant even talk to the SEC about what’s wrong. Taxes aren't that hard but most providers overthink the word “crypto” when they hear it and confuse themselves.
maxqin1 6y ago
Easier to read version than what's on Twitter: https://mythreadreader.com/jonsyu/1389635626698297344 https://mythreadreader.com/jonsyu/1389635626698297344
noxer 6y ago
Here is a free tip if you want to do it anyway. DON'T CREATE ANOTHER F**ING TOKEN! Build you product on an existing reliable fast and cheap blockchain that fits your needs. Focus on the product not the price of tokens on said DLT. You dont need a token. No, really you dont. Your tokens only use case is likely to transfer value and guess which token can do this better than yours? All of them! Simply because they already have adoption/liquidity/fiat on-ramps etc. etc. You also instantly gain a community simply by using a token that has a community already. And you avoid lots of legal problems. Here are some companies that did/do this: coil.com sologenic.org gatehub.net forte.io raisedinspace.com (Very biased (they all use XRPL.org) because I simply dont know other projects. But you get the point, every DLT that actually works in a useful way should have people building on top - if not its probably garbage tech)
- reedjosh 6y ago
  Only downside is you can't inflate the supply for unique purposes. For example PeakD.com inflates hive to give content creators tips based on likes. Edit: I thought this was legitimate reasoning behind having your own token. I don't mean it in an inflammatory way. Please explain why you disagree.
  - noxer 6y ago
    I dont think this is a downside at all. If you build on a existing blockchain you ofc need funding rather than "printing" you own funding. It may be harder but also less of a legal risk. BTW Coil.com pays content creators based on user interaction. Its however not self printed money its form actual user who want to support content creator rather than ad-companies. Ofc coil itself runs on funding money like any other startup nothing wrong with that. Also a project can ask the team behind the DLT they want to use and possibly get some of their reserves. Its in their interest that the DLT is used for something. Actual devs who build something are worth way more than the thousands of people who just buy something because Elon Musk tweets about it. And btw at the same time a dev can still bet on price gains or the token they use. I see no moral problem with that. If your product actually creates demand that moves the price up and you bet on that you own it.
mosselman 6y ago
I see lots of people in the thread, including the author, that have avatars with glowing eyes. Can someone explain what this is about? Is this some sub cultural thing?
- koalala 6y ago
  It's the 'laser eyes' meme. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/laser-eyes-bitcoin-trend-laserrayuntil100k https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/laser-eyes-bitcoin-trend-lase...
  - mosselman 6y ago
    Ah thanks :)
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    How do you read the content of this website? Everything jumps around as you scroll. https://streamable.com/ymqe1c https://streamable.com/ymqe1c
    - alphachloride 6y ago
      The content stops jumping if you stop scrolling. That is how I was able to read the content.
- minikomi 6y ago
  https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-laser-eyes-senator-cynthia-lummis-1570644%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-laser-...
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- chrisco255 6y ago
  Thread poster is a Bitcoin maximalist, and thinks all crypto projects that are not Bitcoin are scams.
- 6y ago
throwaway_kufu 6y ago
I personally have experienced NFT cartels first hand and would love to expose it. From pay to play propositions by a “NFT artist” that’s sold millions in NFTs for an invite to an invite only NFT marketplace, promises of $x/month in sales, to a prolific “NFT collector” on Twitter confirming being part of the whole scam by retweeting me upon request of the artist to verify the authenticity of it all. From what I gather no one gives a shit, and their attitude seems to be we can buy off anyone who challenges us. The irony is the same people shaking me down for Bitcoin in exchange for an invitation to the marketplace/inner circle successfully have collectively called for for banning/suspending of accounts from various NFT marketplaces openly on Twitter. Anyone here in media want to do a story?
- yunusabd 6y ago
  I've been thinking about this, there are so many crazy/interesting stories in the crypto sphere that you could fill volumes upon volumes. I wish they were reported more, hope someone picks you up on your offer.
- emosenkis 6y ago
  Try Planet Money?
onebot 6y ago
Having been part of launching Helium HNT token (which is honestly a real-world utility use case), here is my personal experience related to his points... Helium started as a traditional centralized IoT project, realized that centralization was a limiting factor, then joked about turning it into a blockchain application. Now it is over $1.5bn market cap and provides a real-world utility. Exchanges are pay-to-play. It feels bad to interact with them to get listed. Lots and lots of scammers. There is still so much untapped value in some possible use-cases, but honestly too many get-rich schemes. Launching a new layer 1 protocol is a tremendous amount of development effort and I think underestimated by most. Security is hard. Scammers/hackers go after all project members personally. You probably aren't prepared for any kind of success. 5 years ago crypto wasn't mainstream. Fast forward to today, and when you say you're in crypto, everyone thinks you're a billionaire. 1.) Decentralization will come for sure (DAO LLC), but no matter what, there is still a Foundation of some kind. 2.) Community depends on utility. There are some amazing strong communities, but is in direct proportoin to the utility the token really brings. Otherwise, just pump and dumpers. 3.) I don't think it is 100% possible to truly decentralize governance. But people are trying. 4.) I don't believe this is true for everything. There are pump and dumpers, but many of the decent tokens today need to focus on utility, the tokens for speculation only will always be manipulated. 5.) I think the VC landscape has changed and maybe a more piling on, but couple of years ago, VCs wouldn't touch crypto and the VCs focusing on crypto (Multicoin, Polychain, etc) are very good and extremely smart. 6.) Time makes no difference. Since it is decentralized it isn't like you have a support team fielding issues. You can't fix anything in a moment's notice. Releases take careful planning and careful testing. 7.) Again this assumes there is no utility in the token. But he is right you can't talk about token price or speculation. But underneath it all you hope the token price goes up. 8.) 100% true. You can't build it and they will just come. It requires real marketing and PR. Most importantly branding. People are looking for value and community around your token. But the early adopters are FOMO speculators. 9.) Yes, legal fees are very high. Could be 7 figures. 10.) Taxes are becoming more clear. Cost basis and capital gains. But a lot depends on how you acquired your token. 11.) Basically, people will constantly claim your are scammers. Literally day and night. And people will spam free bitcoin offers to all your telegram and discord users. Every day and every night. 12.) I think insider trading is unbounded in crypto currency, but that being said a.) its still illegal and not sure founders would be participating in this, b.) its still unclear what really motivates the market. Crypto is heavily retail and the chatter as always be trolls, scammers and naysayers. But also fomo'ers. So hard to say how much insider trading will capitalize on information versus exchanges that can manipulate the volume data. I think whales can manipulate far better than insider trading. 13.) hard to say are we talking a stock market bear market or a crypto bear market? 14.) There are several tokens that have real utility and likely you aren't questioning your lifes' decisions. But lots of sh*tcoin maybe you are. But blockchain (layer 1) developers are still incredibly hard to find--so think they can pick whatever they want to work on. 15.) Again, utility (real use case) or pure speculation play. There are tons of garbage uses of blockchain that are a super poor fit. Hopefully, you don't work for one of those (does supplychain really need to be on a blockchain?) 16.) Unsure if that is true. I think most projects get a halo effect from the success of bitcoin. Most new tokens should be real utility instead of trying to replace bitcoin.
purple_ferret 6y ago
Is there a POS stablecoin blockchain with smart contracts in the works? Why couldn't it be done? Because founders wouldn't be able to hold 80% of coins so they can cash out like Vitalik, CZ, or Justin Sun?
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
  Because every stablecoin is by definition centralized. It has an underlying bank account, which could at any moment be freezed or seized, all coins confiscated and all smart contracts voided (or some specific contracts voided). Not so with decentralized blockchains based on proof of work.
  - rodiger 6y ago
    Most, not all. E.g. DAI [0] [0] https://makerdao.com/en/whitepaper#abstract https://makerdao.com/en/whitepaper#abstract
- noxer 6y ago
  We can make trust-less stablecoins backed by crypto but we cant run a blockchain on a stablecoin. Its only stable if its backed or pegged to something and that we dont know how to do decentral.
timdaub 6y ago
This account is talking about how many things in Crypto are non-credible but at the same time they also just "blab" their opinion on Twitter without any factual backing.
Luker88 6y ago
As someone interested in all of cryptography, I cringe every single time when we call blockchain "crypto". Sure, there's cryptography in it. But you don't call a mail or http server "crypto". There's similar tech in git, we don't call it "crypto", we call it VCS. Calling this "crypto" is just trying to add a mystic aura for stuff people don't understand, to further muddy the waters. We have a word for this technology. It's not "crypto". It's blockchain. Sure, it's your shorthand for "cryptocoin" or "cryptovalue". Which are again newspeak for blockchain, and we could argue that given its limits and usage of the last years they should be called crypto-investment, at best. Which is still like ordering a pizza and forcefully referring to it only as "food". I want a pepperoni-food please. Sorry for the rant, but it really feels like it's just a way to further embellish something with dubious values like the post points out
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- jyriand 6y ago
  It's like people will create their own desired footpaths over fields when the sidewalks are not in the right place, so it seems the word "crypto" is just a shortcut because there aren't any shorter words to describe blockchain.
- avindroth 6y ago
  Crypto sounds way cooler and can be prepended to things much more easily. It’s a social market out there.
- sadfasf122 6y ago
  Cryptocurrency - therefore crypto for short. /thread.
- ccamrobertson 6y ago
  Regardless of the "crypto" shorthand, blockchains are distinct from cryptocurrencies. A cryptocurrency can exist without using a blockchain to record balance changes, and likewise, a blockchain can exist which is not used for recording accounts or spendable outputs. The "crypto" shorthand emerged from the cryptocurrency side, which by and large, uses cryptographic primitives in order to spend and receive value. One further bit worth adding is that the market demand for cryptocurrencies broadly has directed massive amounts of resources towards the development of novel cryptographic primitives.
RichardHeart 6y ago
Add to that: 16.5 You will be demonized by everyone except those that participate in what you build. 17. Every dollar spent on dev didn't 40x in ETH over the last year, or 400x in some other things. 18. Centralized gatekeeping of the "decentralized" projects both in coin ranking sites and exchanges. 19. Constant and never ending copycats and straight scams impersonating your brand. 20. People duct-taping coins onto what you build and stealing your users (ala sushi vampire attack on uniswap.) 21. Advertising is banned everywhere for you (reddit, facebook, youtube, google, etc) Caveat: Founder of #14 on nomics.)
- vmception 6y ago
  > Every dollar spent on dev didn't 40x in ETH over the last year, or 400x in some other things. Yes, but thats why you collect a ton of other people’s money in token sale revenue to begin with! You have larger than normal overhead costs, but still larger than normal earnings
literallyWTF 6y ago
He forgot the most important part, hope your revolutionary x-coin reaches a few cents and cash out in US dollars.
jcpham2 6y ago
It would be super awesome if the personalities attracted to this would realize they are many many years too late to attract anyone else to their scheme. That's my personal opinion but ya'll seem to like that over here on the 'ol HN (aka the new slashdot)
- dylkil 6y ago
  every cycle has a new "trick", e.g. in 2017 ICO's to tokenise everything, in 2020/2021 IDO's, yield farming and NFTs.
christiansakai 6y ago
So he is a Bitcoin shill? lol. Nothing to see here boys. You get all you know already. Ironically this post happens near top as well lol http://paulgraham.com/newideas.html http://paulgraham.com/newideas.html
- dylkil 6y ago
  yes hes a bitcoin maximalist. Everything but bitcoin is bad according to him.
  - atweiden 6y ago
    “Bitcoin maximalist” is a pejorative invented by Vitalik Buterin circa the Ethereum ICO. It’s best understood as a laxative for one’s disposable income, prescribed by the Ethereum doctors to be imbibed by would-be altcoin investors. Altcoin promoters quickly attached themselves to the term for financially motivated reasons, unsurprisingly. Notably it has little to no meme/entertainment value: its value is strictly limited to psychological warfare, and is rooted in sophistry.
    - dylkil 6y ago
      are you being serious
jude- 6y ago
He forgot a point: exchanges are the house, and the house always wins. Want your token to be traded on an exchange? You'll pay a fee, you'll do all the integration legwork for them pro bono, and then they'll skim money off of all the trades on your token in perpetuity.
- arberx 6y ago
  Thankfully there are now DEXs which are super cool. uniswap.org
  - jude- 6y ago
    Thank you for reaffirming my point! If you want your token traded on uniswap, you'll write the integration code pro bono, you'll pay a fee (a transaction fee to deploy it), and Ethereum miners (who run uniswap) skim transaction fees off of your token trades in perpetuity.
    - wmf 6y ago
      So clearly every token should have its own exchange.
      - jude- 6y ago
        I didn't say that. I'm saying that it's another unanticipated burden of building out a crypto project, which is what this twitter thread is going on about. EDIT: Also, sure, why not own the exchange too if you can swing it? Less middlemen taking a cut from your revenue.
    - arberx 6y ago
      There's no "integration" code-once your token is on the blockchain if can be traded on uni once there's enough liquidity. Using the network is not "skimming" transactions.
      - jude- 6y ago
idlewords 6y ago
It is hard being a tulip grower!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
p4bl0 6y ago
For those who thought this was n interesting link about starting to work on cryptology related project: it's not This has nothing to do with crypto it is yet another thread about scam energy-wasting fake money.
yunusabd 6y ago
Most of the comments here seem to revolve around "traditional" crytocurrencies that are more or less copycats of Bitcoin with no real value-add. I think what most people don't realize is how much crypto has changed since 2017, mainly through Ethereum and the concept of smart contracts. The idea of running (immutable) functions on a decentralized network combined with transaction of value has so many interesting applications, that I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible. Shameless plug: We're in the middle of validating/refining an idea for a tokenized e-commerce platform. The main idea is that a tokenized platform can shift the incentives for all actors to produce drastically different outcomes. So we're more about embracing the game-theoretical side of crypto than the technical side. https://shopla.shop https://shopla.shop Curious what you guys think, any feedback is welcome.
- asdev 6y ago
  unless your platform is better than shopify or your fees are 90% less, I don't see how you can compete
  - yunusabd 6y ago
    90% is a lot, but we do plan on having lower fees.
aero- 6y ago
Still waiting for someone to name one singular measurable impact of a crypto project. It's a solution that's been searching for a problem for over 10 years. Decentralized, distributed, blah blah, stop drinking the koolaid. Is a network controlled primarily by 4 mining companies decentralized? Do you need a distributed network to sell NFTS that are only useable within the world of a specific video game company? (game nfts) Name a project that can't be accomplished traditionally with the cloud and some code? Name a reason why you should leave your FDIC insured government backed bank for a 3rd party wallet and incur transaction fees, gas fees, fraud, hacks ect that are equivalent to wire transfer fees cbx fees ect. The crypto community has been spewing advantages that don't exist and solutions for problems that do. not. exist.
- conanbatt 6y ago
  > Still waiting for someone to name one singular measurable impact of a crypto project. It's a solution that's been searching for a problem for over 10 years. Protection against a devaluing currency, privacy and access.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- inteoryx 6y ago
  I was looking at a project called Helium or HNT. The basic idea is that "miners" are running something like a mix between a WiFi endpoint and a personal cell tower. People can use HNT tokens to get network access and the miners earn the tokens by providing the access. I thought it seemed like a pretty neat idea and was encouraged by the fact that this crypto project actually did something useful. As I looked into it though I could only find people talking about how to mine the token, or details about the price, and nobody was talking about using the network. I wanted to try the network myself, or see if I could get a device on the network and what the service was like. It's a little naive of me, but at first I was imagining something like cell service being provided by this system. I was wondering what it would take to get my laptop on it and imagining having a network connection wherever for a low price. When I looked into it though I didn't find anyone using the network. The limitations on the network were severe, if I recall correctly their pricing calculator shows you the price of network usage in terms of cost per packet, where a packet can send something like 16 bits of information. Their envisioned use case was a collar for pets to wear that could ping the network once a day, but to my knowledge no such collars had actually been created or sold... Disappointed to find something that looked kind of useful at first glance actually resolve to something that looks kind of useless.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Lindn182 6y ago
Please upvote
RamblingCTO 6y ago
To be honest I really hope this cryptocurrency and blockchain bullshit fad is dying really, really soon. Lots of promises and bold "ideas". We waste our precious resources on something that just benefits what feels like a few people but claims to bring decentralization. I think you can have all the cool projects without any blockchain/crypto bullshit. Nobody wants to do their due diligence with the regulations though and that's dangerous. We're polluting our atmosphere with something that is broken af.

369 points by grey-area 6y ago

Can confirm. I’m friends with a group of very smart distributed systems engineers who were excited to launch an actually useful crypto project that gets talked about here from time to time. As much as they’re excited about the technology itself, very few people are actually interested in using it. Instead, their business seems to revolve around the value of the utility tokens for their project. Few people are buying the utility tokens to pay for the service. They’re buying them to horde so they can resell to other speculators when the price goes up. They have a lot of tokens in circulation, but only a small number of them get used to pay for the service. Many of them are sitting in the wallets of exchanges where they get traded back and forth but never come near the blockchain. Investors only care about getting more press releases out so they can pump up the price of their discounted tokens, which have a shortened lockup period relative to something like stocks. It’s almost like a pump-and-dump scheme for investors. Maybe their underlying project will become popular in the future, but the volatility of the token price makes it increasingly unattractive for companies that want to actually use it.

mkohlmyr 6y ago
> Investors only care about getting more press releases out so they can pump up the price of their discounted tokens, which have a shortened lockup period relative to something like stocks. It’s almost like a pump-and-dump scheme for investors. "almost" If even useful services are being abused for speculation, it's time to realise the entire space is fundamentally broken. We've already seen massive fraud in the space, it's only a matter of time before people who fundamentally don't understand what they are "investing in" are left holding bags. It will necessarily collapse because of how it's being used. (imo)
- berkes 6y ago
  How is this any different from the "web tech" space at large? Where investors will push towards "data-hoarding", privacy-invasion, dark patterns and/or addictiveness or other psychological "abuse", more often than not?
  - tnzm 6y ago
    That's why it's the investment space that needs disruption - which is why crypto is met with so much pushback on HN. A year ago, crypto-related stories made front page much less often, if at all.
    - verdverm 6y ago
      2017 was very different. Crypto type stories frequented the front page with technical marvels. Then a few things happened... 1) we evaluated 2) this scamconomy arose 3) the bubble burst. I was excited then, when it was new to me, but then I learnt the truth about blockchain
    - tinyhouse 6y ago
      Because people here try to understand the technology and its usage before riding the hype train. Most people investing in Ether for example have no idea what it even means. But when you ask them they would spit answers like "it's going to revolutionize finance..". When you ask them how, they have no answer. When you ask them for specific applications that they know of outside of the stupid NFT, they send you to Google. Yesterday someone on Youtube gave an example about a fridge that will order you eggs and milk when they run out, and everything will be done on the blockchain. Not a crypto hater. I even invest for fun and because you cannot deny the opportunity to make money rn. But don't expect people to ride the train blindly. I do think that crypto isn't going anywhere. But the current valuation of these coins is just absurd rn.
      - intotheabyss 6y ago
        There are plenty of useful applications on Ethereum. Maker, Compound, Aave, dYdX, Synthetix, UMA, Uniswap to name very few.
        tinyhouse 6y ago
        Thanks. I will take a look.
        6y ago
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  Is price speculation considered abuse?
  - mkohlmyr 6y ago
    The tokens issued in this case (on of the few) have a purpose which is not speculation. If large amounts of speculation is undermining the business itself then yes I think that might qualify as a form of abuse? Happy to use an alternative term of your choice, ESL etc.
    - matheusmoreira 6y ago
      I'm not sure if the price speculation actually undermines the underlying businesses. For example, I participate in a blockchain wiki project. On the telegram there is a lot of people talking about the price but I don't feel like it diminishes the usefulness of the project. I asked questions about editing, the admins helped me out and I was able to use the platform.
extr 6y ago
Sounds like Chainlink
- kayhi 6y ago
  or filecoin
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    Like the OP Twitter thread said: It's universal across every crypto project that issues their own tokens. There's no reason to force customers to buy a brand new token invented out of thin air just to pay for a service that could be otherwise purchased with real money or Ethereum.
- gge 6y ago
  What are you talking about? Chainlink is used a ton, literally powers most of defi. Its used to secure 10s of billions of $.
monkeydust 6y ago
Perhaps their initial approach was not the right one i.e. was the public token the right method to maximize the value of their actual offering? Maybe they need to rethink given what you have said. I know of a very similar company (might even be the same one) the telegram forum they have setup is just full of people speculating what will / might happen ...will it go to the moon... etc.. They have now moderated that out but still main reason people join the group to start with.
hanniabu 6y ago
Why don't you be transparent and tell us the service?
- ipaddr 6y ago
  In many cases it is very useful. In this case does it really matter who? It could apply to almost all cryto projects.
  - hanniabu 6y ago
    Yes it does because he's saying "I swear guys this was definitely a good idea no need to confirm what I say" and then continues to bash crypto because it wasn't getting any traction. So his argument is just based on his opinion that it was a great idea, meanwhile most ideas are garbage.
alephu5 6y ago
This seems like it should be labeled as some kind of social law: Any blockchain will always converge towards a speculation vehicle. In much the same way, social networks almost always seem to become hookup platforms.
notJim 6y ago
> They’re buying them to horde so they can resell to other speculators when the price goes up. It's almost like all interest in cryptocurrency is driven by greed and speculation. I've been learning more about it, and I'm pretty convinced this is the case. Go into any crypto space, and all people are talking about is yield, price action, how much their tokens have grown etc. I think the only thing I've seen that isn't purely about speculation is NFTs, oddly enough, which seem to be basically a fad.
- wonderwonder 6y ago
  To be fair though that's most things. That's the very purpose of the stock market. When you buy a stock most of the time most people don't care what the company it represents does, they just want the stock to go up. Same thing can be applied to most things there are vast warehouses full of art people will never see as its just owned as a tax dodge / speculation. Heck most of us work jobs we hate for nothing but money. Greed / speculation and the need for income make the world go round.
  - XorNot 6y ago
    All those things still produce tangible goods at the end though, is the difference. I can hate my job but at the end of the day I still created value for my employer. Companies on the stock market still create actual value for people, even if shareholders don't particularly care how they do it.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - X6S1x6Okd1st 6y ago
      Does Facebook produce tangible goods?
      - jokethrowaway 6y ago
        Yes, a social network
wmf 6y ago
Few people are buying the utility tokens to pay for the service. They’re buying them to hoard so they can resell to other speculators That's not a utility token. If you want to create a true utility token, make it stable and you won't have to worry about speculation.
- zaphar 6y ago
  This is impossible. If it can be traded it can be speculated. The value of any tradable asset is determined by how much someone is willing to trade for it and by nothing else. There is no way to make it stable other than to make it impossible to trade.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - maxwell 6y ago
    What if asset issuers ("crypto manufacturers") imposed contractual price ceilings/floors? Probably more realistic with exchanges ("authorized resellers") than individual traders. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/dealings-supply-chain/manufacturer-imposed https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
  - thegreatpeter 6y ago
    i agree, but there are stable coins...
fuzzybear3965 6y ago
SkyNet/SiaSky?

henvic 6y ago

Society is losing the opportunity to create a lot of wealth because people are investing in silly proof-of-work (or: energy/resource wasting) ideas. It's awful, and I guess we're only going to see this over once Bitcoin is surpassed by Dogecoin (I'm sure this will happen), and then Dogecoin gets surpassed by any other stupid shitcoin out there. The idea of cryptocurrency is interesting, but the idea of having no back at all makes no sense. Wasting energy is not creating wealth.

pfisch 6y ago
You realize doge coin is still worth less than 10% of btc by marketcap? Not sure I would count on that prediction. I mean is gme going to surpass apple?
- henvic 6y ago
  10% over something that is pure speculation and has no value whatsoever seems like really high. If anything, this just makes me feel confident about my prediction.
  - mikeodds 6y ago
    You could reach out to the polymarket team on discord and they might be happy to setup a prediction market for this https://polymarket.com/ https://polymarket.com/ They’re crypto based but unfortunately (/s) no token
    - xur17 6y ago
      Yes, please make this market so I can take the other side of the bet.
spottybanana 6y ago
> It's awful, and I guess we're only going to see this over once Bitcoin is surpassed by Dogecoin (I'm sure this will happen), and then Dogecoin gets surpassed by any other stupid shitcoin out there. Just pointing out that both Doge and BTC are proof of work and consume energy in similar style with the mining process.

pattusk 6y ago

> 16. And my personal pet peeve is that, by and large, most of crypto actually does want Bitcoin to die. Perhaps not in a "I want Bitcoin to go to zero", but in a, "Bitcoin doesn't do anything and so I want its value to be rightly distributed to my project, which has real utility". This is the most frustrating thing about crypto and has been since at least 2016. Most of the projects with the highest market cap in the space either don't do anything, don't plan on doing anything and don't have any purpose. And then you have a myriad of projects that are rewriting the traditional finance playbooks. Or blockchain infrastructure projects that are laying the foundations of what could be a fully decentralized and anonymous web. And they're worth a 100th of DOGE's market cap. Granted, they might still very well be grossly overvalued. Especially at this stage of the bull market. But the fact that there's such assymetry with projects that are at best vaporware and at worse outright scams is by far the most frustrating part of crypto.

ignoramous 6y ago
> Most of the projects with the highest market cap in the space either don't do anything, don't plan on doing anything and don't have any purpose. The second most valued crypto-currency is Ethereum. And the entire ecosystem around it does plan on doing a lot of things, starting with decentralised finance. There are also efforts to layer a network on top of Bitcoin in a bid to counter-act Ethereum. And competing networks like Diem (Facebook, Spotify, Uber...), CENTRE (Coinbase / Circle...), Stellar (Stripe...) that aim to replace the current payments infrastructure. Then there are cross-chains like Polkadot, Cosmos, Polygon et al that try to make all of these disparate blockchains inter-programmable. Agree that pump and dump schemes seem like the norm, but that's like saying Internet has no utility and is crap because there's porn, spam, and malware all around.
- pattusk 6y ago
  I said most because indeed most of the innovation, both technical and cultural originates from Ethereum. But DOGE, XRP, ADA, LTC, BCH, TRON, ETC. EOS, NEO, BSV are all in the top 25 and have nothing to show for it despite being some of the oldest players in the space. The L2 projects on Bitcoin are not new and they've never brought anything revolutionary. And I think BTC is fine without L2, it's a very different philosophy from ETH and I can respect that. I just don't think it does or will ever deliver the typeof value that ETH and the projects hosted on it do. Polygon, Cosmos or other innovative L1 projects like Avalanche, Algorand or HBAR all sit at 9 digit mcap - which is certainly very high but still annoyingly low when you consider that DOGE is worth 77 billion dollars and BSC, whose sole purpose is to make scams out of ETH projects and run them on a centralized chain, sits close to 100 billion dollars.

bearjaws 6y ago

"4. You realize that most of the "influencer" network of crypto is actually a cartel of individuals who all know each other and collude in pumping the same bags. They all cost around $20k-30k for a review, btw." This is the sad truth about all these people on Youtube / Twitch. I know two individuals who are sucked into their "shows" and use what they are saying as gospel. It drives me nuts because they spout off numbers like "BTC @ 100k" and theres no date given.. I just respond by saving an even more ridiculous number like "BTC @ 100bn"

user-the-name 6y ago

Always treat every single crypto project as a scam. It is one of the safest bets you can make. Everyone involved is a scammer, every exchange is untrustworthy, and nobody can be trusted. If you're trying to start an honest project in this space, you really need to ask yourself why you would put yourself in a situation where you are the only honest person in a room full of scammers.

berkes 6y ago
> If you're trying to start an honest project in this space, you really need to ask yourself why you would put yourself in a situation where you are the only honest person in a room full of scammers. This is one reason why I pulled the plug on my startup in the sphere. In the best case you're disadvantaged by all the scammers and liers: they can make promises, cut corners, rip investors where you are being careful, covering all bases, and trying to put a real case and working sofware out. In the worst case, your honesty is helping the scammers by adding credibility to their case.
- user-the-name 6y ago
  Exactly. Plus, you run the risk of either getting exploited yourself by the scammers, or feeling the pressure to act more dishonestly to keep up.
viraptor 6y ago
That's an emotional response going the other way. Why not just think of the project itself as if the blockchain side of it never existed? Is there a real product, is there a visible progress, is the time investment happening in the development rather than empty announcements?
- user-the-name 6y ago
  "Why not blind yourself to relevant context" is not a really a great way to make good decisions.

55555 6y ago

I started a crypto startup once (don't do it unless you're Vitalik-tier intelligent) and this is pretty damn accurate. lol

lottin 6y ago
Vitalik Buterin, the guy who thinks you can do quantum computing by running a quantum computer emulator on an ordinary computer [1]. Doesn't strike me as the sharpest tool to be honest... [1] https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/1273957905243475968 https://twitter.com/VitalikButerin/status/127395790524347596...
- rodiger 6y ago
  A random tweet about a concept not being "fundamentally ridiculous" is an awfully low bar to discredit intelligence. Have a look at his blog[0] and let me know if that reinforces your belief. Besides, if you read the whole thread you'd know he's acknowledging that if we could simulate QC classically, then we'd be able to have more efficient classical search algorithms. It's an if that's likely impossible at scale but not, by definition, impossible. [0] https://vitalik.ca/ https://vitalik.ca/
  - lottin 6y ago
    It's not just a random tweet. He's had these ideas since 2013 at least. So here for more details: https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/buterins-quantum-quest/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/buterins-quantum-quest/ But I'll take a look at his blog, thanks.
    - proto-n 6y ago
      > competent observers would likely consider even that on the high side for a mathematical impossibility If the statement made by Vitalik "There's no proof that efficient classical simulation of QC is impossible" is indeed the case, then it's the linked blogpost that has discredited itself mathematically by treating this as "breaking mathematics" or a "mathematical impossibility". More like groundbreaking surprise, but there's a big difference between "unlikely" and "proven to be impossible" mathematically speaking.

deleted 6y ago

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throwaway4good 6y ago

What if speculation was the use case? ... the only use case ...

1ark 6y ago
Wait until you learn about derivatives and the size of it. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and-markets-in-one-visualization-2020/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/all-of-the-worlds-money-and...

fumblebee 6y ago

> 2. You aim to build a community, but in reality 90% of your telegram/discord are scammers and people asking why price is going down/accusations that you and your entire team should go to jail. I'm consistently repulsed by the lack of thoughtful discussion in crypto communities. For a space littered with intriguing technology it's endlessly frustrating that there's no HN-like forum. Instead, any community that started off that way is now filled with speculators and shillers. Take your pick for where to source your news: 1. crypto influencers on YouTube who are paid to shill, 2. forums likw Reddit filled with speculators and conmen, 3. pump and dump groups on Telegram. The greed and FOMO on display in the crypto gold-rush is deeply depressing, and for the majority who join the craze at the peak of the bull run, it'll surely end in tears.

queuep 6y ago
I think this depends on the coin. The IOTA discord is quite interesting, and people using the tech. Not sure IOTA will be a thing though, but I still like reading the discussions in the Discord.
hanniabu 6y ago
> it's endlessly frustrating that there's no HN-like forum There are communities like this, such as the crypto dev discord, the daily gwei discord, ethereum cat herders discord, etc. You're just in the wrong communities. That's like spending time on 4chan and saying "the internet sucks, it's filled with horrible people and no thoughtful discussions."
- chrisco255 6y ago
  I do think it's scattered, but certainly there. There are many high-quality and thoughtful Twitter posters but you really have to filter. Meanwhile, I think there is room for a crypto HN since HN is actively hostile to anything positive towards crypto.
  - dekervin 6y ago
    What do you think of this as a starting point: https://datapeek.org/?explorer_view=quest https://datapeek.org/?explorer_view=quest ?

tromp 6y ago

Sounds like he's talking about tokens, rather than an honest blockchain built from scratch with no rewards for the developers other than creating innovative technology. Without a premine/instamine/devtax, there's no need to shill the coins, or care much about the price.

vmception 6y ago
These arbitrary distinctions don't help the asset class either. There is just as massive of a graveyard of dead chains because the dev teams could not exchange time for food and shelter.
- tromp 6y ago
  can you provide an example of a dead coin that featured real innovation without rewarding its creators?
  - vmception 6y ago
    There is no way for this to be a productive conversation if ‘real innovation’ can always be a goal post to move. The other side of that is that I don't remember, none of this has been relevant since 2016 which is half a decade ago now. Just trudge bitcointalk for defunct chains and find one that you liked the roadmap of. There is a more quantifiable trend of market tolerance in this asset class for what founders can earn. You have an extremely antiquated view of what that can be, the impractical charity developer building a product that the communities adores and spawns into a very active network. That pretty much never happens as the dev needs to use their time to exchange for food and shelter and nobody else picks up the baton. Following that, devs attempted small dev taxes of 1-2%, the market barely tolerated that for some years, and it also wasn't good enough to fund development Following that the market tolerated larger preallocations of 30%. Then it tolerated fund raises where developers kept funds raised and large preallocations, similar to equities. Then it tolerated even more where low float assets are now commonplace, with developers keeping upwards of 99% of the asset created, keeping the funds collected, and have unlimited issuance capabilities. But there is no hard line in the sand, and not everyone has an uncomfortable relationship with money such that arbitrary thresholds determine what a founder “deserves”. It is obvious that being able to actually pay a dev team has done much more for the speed of development in this space than harping on about some irrelevant ideology. You might find it surprising (okay now I am being facetious, but it still has to be said to highlight the inanity of your last decade view), but the entire industrial era has the same aspect based on paying workers closer to the value they provide at the time and thats the only model proven to work in an economy.

emmap21 6y ago

From user experience, I personally don't see a strong benefit of crypto. It always looks like a Ponzi Scheme to me. When early users are people driven by greed than productivity, it is a HUGE problem.

aabhay 6y ago
Exactly. Nassim Taleb calls it an “open ponzi” — a ponzi that is openly known
- seibelj 6y ago
  Taleb has never revealed the details of his investment portfolio. For someone who screams "I don't care - show me the returns!" it's interesting that he cannot prove that his "black swan" strategy has ever been actionable for his own or anyone's portfolio, how to use his theories to make significant money vs. normal strategies, and any proof that his hedge fund made any money during the dot-com crash which you would figure would be the prime time to make money given his public persona. Taleb got profiled in the New Yorker, his Black Swan book became popular, and he has rode that and Twitter ever since. I highly recommend people see him for what he is - a public figure that is a bullshitter like anyone else - at least until he shows proof that he is some sort of investor oracle. He has actively sued people who revealed how much money his prior fund lost, as those documents are floating around but he attacks anyone who publicly reveals them.
  - jeffreyrogers 6y ago
    Someone in the industry has a theory that he made his initial fortune by being unhedged during Black Monday[0] and benefiting from being on the "right" side and he's been coasting on that since then. Obviously hard/impossible to say, but he is definitely hypocritical when it comes to things like "skin in the game". [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)
  - pdog 6y ago
    > It's interesting that he cannot prove that his "black swan" strategy has ever been actionable for his own or anyone's portfolio, how to use his theories to make significant money vs. normal strategies... Mark Spitznagel, a cofounder of Empirica (Taleb's old fund), went on to start Universa which did pretty well with similar theories (tail-risk strategies and insurance via options against extreme market risk) in both the 2008-2009 period and last year, when they booked a huge return. So there's some evidence that the theories work to produce uncorrelated (or negatively correlated) returns that outperform the market[1]. [1]: Universa's flagship "Black Swan Protection Protocol" fund has produced a mean annual return on invested capital of 76% since the firm was created in 2008. https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2020/04/13/how-a-goat-farmer-built-a-doomsday-machine-that-just-booked-a-4144-return/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/antoinegara/2020/04/13/how-a-go...

golergka 6y ago

Reading that twitter thread, and HN discussion here, I am again reminded how the whole startup scene looked before dotcom crash: insane valuations, lots of scammers, and what little utility there is, it's mostly for illegal means. (If you're saying that there's no real utility in Bitcoin, you really should google Hydra). But don't you wish you bought Amazon stock right after IPO?

ww520 6y ago
Good point. But for every Amazon back then there were hundreds of Pets.com.
- saalweachter 6y ago
  Don't forget the corollary: when do you wish you sold the Amazon stock you purchased at IPO?
- dylkil 6y ago
  wasnt it obvious to some people back then who the real companies were, and all it took was everyone else catching up to speed to understand who the real companies were?
mtnGoat 6y ago
its very similar. now, as was then, people are investing in tech they don't understand and in some cases tech that may not even be buildable. :x

rapsey 6y ago

So many of the smartest people in the world work in the areas of getting people to click on ads, mining personal information, finance and crypto. Areas that at best have no social value. It is quite depressing.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago
Crypto has no social value? I'm not in the space, but I think crypto has immense social value.
- reedjosh 6y ago
  Indeed. Like a decentralized social network driven not by ads, but likes that gen coins. PeakD.com Or a digital currency with the privacy and fungibility of cash. GetMonero.org Or an ad free streaming platform. Odysee.com
- hanniabu 6y ago
  Don't waste your breath dude, HN has become a safe haven for people that like to bury their head in the sand and shit talk crypto. Yeah, anybody that's actually knowledgeable in it know that what they're saying are the same old sad tropes that the news has been training people to repeat verbatim, but they've boxed themselves in and they'll die on this hill.
  - samvher 6y ago
    Where is a place to get a broader perspective on this? I've tried subreddits for some of the projects, the cryptocurrency subreddit, and google and youtube. I have a lot of difficulty cutting through the noise. (My sense is that projects like Ethereum could be extremely valuable but that its value is currently hurt by the speculation on Ether making transactions far too costly. I'd be very interested in getting exposed to the "quality" projects that are out there but it's hard to filter.)
    - reedjosh 6y ago
      I like https://talesfromthecrypt.libsyn.com/ https://talesfromthecrypt.libsyn.com/ It's ostensibly a BTC podcast, but it's _really_ about much more including second tier networks, altcoin tech, and individual autonomy. Otherwise, getting involved in the code itself does seem to be the only avenue I've found for real learning. There's an O'Reilly book that has you build a blockchain from scratch if you're interested. I'd welcome other suggestions. Oh, also Tezos has most of Ethereum's features, but is already Proof of Stake.

FlyingSnake 6y ago

This is a brilliant thread and sums up neatly what's wrong with crypto space in general. > 90% of your telegram/discord are scammers and people asking why price is going down/accusations that you and your entire team should go to jail. So much this. The greed of get-rich-quick crowd is the biggest hurdle in the success of crypto. Remove the incentives from crypto projects and you'll see how the interest from general public decreases. After all no one cared about BTC until people figured out how to build a ponzi scheme out of it.

intotheabyss 6y ago
It's also one of its biggest strengths. People with real value at stake in an ecosystem will do anything possible to increase the value of their holdings, which means making the overall ecosystem more valuable through individual and team contributions, all open source contributions I might add.

teachingassist 6y ago

This is describing many of the same political problems as you get in any decentralised organisation, such as community volunteers. But, it must be worse to deal with when you have profit as a motivator rather than social benefit. Sounds like a recipe for burn-out and a risk to mental health.

knorker 6y ago

> 9. The LAW. SO MUCH LAW. SO. MUCH. LAW. > 10. There's actually a good chance that there's not a single person in your entire state or country that knows how to do your taxes. And this is because your entire business model is to get around laws that were put in place ON PURPOSE.

ypeterholmes 6y ago
Not really.. most of these companies aren't trying to evade the law- in fact the industry is mostly begging for regulatory clarity in order to be in compliance. Nobody wants to invest millions into something that may or may not end up being designated as illegal.
- knorker 6y ago
  I actually think that this is at the core of most of these companies. Take anonymous money transfers for any amounts. This is why KYC/AML laws exist. If someone could show how a cryptocurrency with anonymous features can follow KYC/AML laws, I'm all ears. Begging for regulatory clarity makes it seems one-sided. It seems very clear to me that the dream the cryptocurrency companies are trying to sell is fundamentally incompatible with the intent of the regulation, even if not yet its text. What can they be left with afterwards? We'll see, but it won't be the vision they've sold. > Nobody wants to invest millions into something that may or may not end up being designated as illegal. The bitcoin blockchain has child porn on it. And BTC is explicitly designed to break KYC/AML laws. Yet people invest.
  - wmf 6y ago
    If someone could show how a cryptocurrency with anonymous features can follow KYC/AML laws, I'm all ears. Zcash has done a lot of work on this. https://z.cash/compliance/ https://z.cash/compliance/
vmception 6y ago
Nah. There are really dumb laws that you need a powerful defense or deterrent against. The biggest problem is that you cant talk about them, or even share the deterrents, because it makes you a target for the regulators if you do. Its actually better that the regulators simply know you have a lawyer, and that they have no idea what your legal strategy is. In finance, ignorance of the law is an excuse (“scienter”), they codified the law specifically that way for themselves, and so giving any knowledge about the law undermines the defense of your own actions, and being able to say “my lawyer made me do it” is an even better defense. This also means that each and every project has to recreate the legal guidance, until Congress explicitly makes a safe harbor route a default regulatory regime. Corporate Securities lawyers know it, exchanges and service providers know it, they carved out a niche for themselves to provide this legal service and it costs 6 figures easily. It is not a perfect defense. Many crypto project issuers are victims in this regard, with everyone onboard with this racket, they cant even talk to the SEC about what’s wrong. Taxes aren't that hard but most providers overthink the word “crypto” when they hear it and confuse themselves.

maxqin1 6y ago

Easier to read version than what's on Twitter: https://mythreadreader.com/jonsyu/1389635626698297344 https://mythreadreader.com/jonsyu/1389635626698297344

noxer 6y ago

Here is a free tip if you want to do it anyway. DON'T CREATE ANOTHER F**ING TOKEN! Build you product on an existing reliable fast and cheap blockchain that fits your needs. Focus on the product not the price of tokens on said DLT. You dont need a token. No, really you dont. Your tokens only use case is likely to transfer value and guess which token can do this better than yours? All of them! Simply because they already have adoption/liquidity/fiat on-ramps etc. etc. You also instantly gain a community simply by using a token that has a community already. And you avoid lots of legal problems. Here are some companies that did/do this: coil.com sologenic.org gatehub.net forte.io raisedinspace.com (Very biased (they all use XRPL.org) because I simply dont know other projects. But you get the point, every DLT that actually works in a useful way should have people building on top - if not its probably garbage tech)

reedjosh 6y ago
Only downside is you can't inflate the supply for unique purposes. For example PeakD.com inflates hive to give content creators tips based on likes. Edit: I thought this was legitimate reasoning behind having your own token. I don't mean it in an inflammatory way. Please explain why you disagree.
- noxer 6y ago
  I dont think this is a downside at all. If you build on a existing blockchain you ofc need funding rather than "printing" you own funding. It may be harder but also less of a legal risk. BTW Coil.com pays content creators based on user interaction. Its however not self printed money its form actual user who want to support content creator rather than ad-companies. Ofc coil itself runs on funding money like any other startup nothing wrong with that. Also a project can ask the team behind the DLT they want to use and possibly get some of their reserves. Its in their interest that the DLT is used for something. Actual devs who build something are worth way more than the thousands of people who just buy something because Elon Musk tweets about it. And btw at the same time a dev can still bet on price gains or the token they use. I see no moral problem with that. If your product actually creates demand that moves the price up and you bet on that you own it.

mosselman 6y ago

I see lots of people in the thread, including the author, that have avatars with glowing eyes. Can someone explain what this is about? Is this some sub cultural thing?

koalala 6y ago
It's the 'laser eyes' meme. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/laser-eyes-bitcoin-trend-laserrayuntil100k https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/laser-eyes-bitcoin-trend-lase...
- mosselman 6y ago
  Ah thanks :)
- mrtksn 6y ago
  How do you read the content of this website? Everything jumps around as you scroll. https://streamable.com/ymqe1c https://streamable.com/ymqe1c
  - alphachloride 6y ago
    The content stops jumping if you stop scrolling. That is how I was able to read the content.
minikomi 6y ago
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-laser-eyes-senator-cynthia-lummis-1570644%3famp=1 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-laser-...
deleted 6y ago
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chrisco255 6y ago
Thread poster is a Bitcoin maximalist, and thinks all crypto projects that are not Bitcoin are scams.
6y ago

throwaway_kufu 6y ago

I personally have experienced NFT cartels first hand and would love to expose it. From pay to play propositions by a “NFT artist” that’s sold millions in NFTs for an invite to an invite only NFT marketplace, promises of $x/month in sales, to a prolific “NFT collector” on Twitter confirming being part of the whole scam by retweeting me upon request of the artist to verify the authenticity of it all. From what I gather no one gives a shit, and their attitude seems to be we can buy off anyone who challenges us. The irony is the same people shaking me down for Bitcoin in exchange for an invitation to the marketplace/inner circle successfully have collectively called for for banning/suspending of accounts from various NFT marketplaces openly on Twitter. Anyone here in media want to do a story?

yunusabd 6y ago
I've been thinking about this, there are so many crazy/interesting stories in the crypto sphere that you could fill volumes upon volumes. I wish they were reported more, hope someone picks you up on your offer.
emosenkis 6y ago
Try Planet Money?

onebot 6y ago

Having been part of launching Helium HNT token (which is honestly a real-world utility use case), here is my personal experience related to his points... Helium started as a traditional centralized IoT project, realized that centralization was a limiting factor, then joked about turning it into a blockchain application. Now it is over $1.5bn market cap and provides a real-world utility. Exchanges are pay-to-play. It feels bad to interact with them to get listed. Lots and lots of scammers. There is still so much untapped value in some possible use-cases, but honestly too many get-rich schemes. Launching a new layer 1 protocol is a tremendous amount of development effort and I think underestimated by most. Security is hard. Scammers/hackers go after all project members personally. You probably aren't prepared for any kind of success. 5 years ago crypto wasn't mainstream. Fast forward to today, and when you say you're in crypto, everyone thinks you're a billionaire. 1.) Decentralization will come for sure (DAO LLC), but no matter what, there is still a Foundation of some kind. 2.) Community depends on utility. There are some amazing strong communities, but is in direct proportoin to the utility the token really brings. Otherwise, just pump and dumpers. 3.) I don't think it is 100% possible to truly decentralize governance. But people are trying. 4.) I don't believe this is true for everything. There are pump and dumpers, but many of the decent tokens today need to focus on utility, the tokens for speculation only will always be manipulated. 5.) I think the VC landscape has changed and maybe a more piling on, but couple of years ago, VCs wouldn't touch crypto and the VCs focusing on crypto (Multicoin, Polychain, etc) are very good and extremely smart. 6.) Time makes no difference. Since it is decentralized it isn't like you have a support team fielding issues. You can't fix anything in a moment's notice. Releases take careful planning and careful testing. 7.) Again this assumes there is no utility in the token. But he is right you can't talk about token price or speculation. But underneath it all you hope the token price goes up. 8.) 100% true. You can't build it and they will just come. It requires real marketing and PR. Most importantly branding. People are looking for value and community around your token. But the early adopters are FOMO speculators. 9.) Yes, legal fees are very high. Could be 7 figures. 10.) Taxes are becoming more clear. Cost basis and capital gains. But a lot depends on how you acquired your token. 11.) Basically, people will constantly claim your are scammers. Literally day and night. And people will spam free bitcoin offers to all your telegram and discord users. Every day and every night. 12.) I think insider trading is unbounded in crypto currency, but that being said a.) its still illegal and not sure founders would be participating in this, b.) its still unclear what really motivates the market. Crypto is heavily retail and the chatter as always be trolls, scammers and naysayers. But also fomo'ers. So hard to say how much insider trading will capitalize on information versus exchanges that can manipulate the volume data. I think whales can manipulate far better than insider trading. 13.) hard to say are we talking a stock market bear market or a crypto bear market? 14.) There are several tokens that have real utility and likely you aren't questioning your lifes' decisions. But lots of sh*tcoin maybe you are. But blockchain (layer 1) developers are still incredibly hard to find--so think they can pick whatever they want to work on. 15.) Again, utility (real use case) or pure speculation play. There are tons of garbage uses of blockchain that are a super poor fit. Hopefully, you don't work for one of those (does supplychain really need to be on a blockchain?) 16.) Unsure if that is true. I think most projects get a halo effect from the success of bitcoin. Most new tokens should be real utility instead of trying to replace bitcoin.

purple_ferret 6y ago

Is there a POS stablecoin blockchain with smart contracts in the works? Why couldn't it be done? Because founders wouldn't be able to hold 80% of coins so they can cash out like Vitalik, CZ, or Justin Sun?

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
Because every stablecoin is by definition centralized. It has an underlying bank account, which could at any moment be freezed or seized, all coins confiscated and all smart contracts voided (or some specific contracts voided). Not so with decentralized blockchains based on proof of work.
- rodiger 6y ago
  Most, not all. E.g. DAI [0] [0] https://makerdao.com/en/whitepaper#abstract https://makerdao.com/en/whitepaper#abstract
noxer 6y ago
We can make trust-less stablecoins backed by crypto but we cant run a blockchain on a stablecoin. Its only stable if its backed or pegged to something and that we dont know how to do decentral.

timdaub 6y ago

This account is talking about how many things in Crypto are non-credible but at the same time they also just "blab" their opinion on Twitter without any factual backing.

Luker88 6y ago

As someone interested in all of cryptography, I cringe every single time when we call blockchain "crypto". Sure, there's cryptography in it. But you don't call a mail or http server "crypto". There's similar tech in git, we don't call it "crypto", we call it VCS. Calling this "crypto" is just trying to add a mystic aura for stuff people don't understand, to further muddy the waters. We have a word for this technology. It's not "crypto". It's blockchain. Sure, it's your shorthand for "cryptocoin" or "cryptovalue". Which are again newspeak for blockchain, and we could argue that given its limits and usage of the last years they should be called crypto-investment, at best. Which is still like ordering a pizza and forcefully referring to it only as "food". I want a pepperoni-food please. Sorry for the rant, but it really feels like it's just a way to further embellish something with dubious values like the post points out

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jyriand 6y ago
It's like people will create their own desired footpaths over fields when the sidewalks are not in the right place, so it seems the word "crypto" is just a shortcut because there aren't any shorter words to describe blockchain.
avindroth 6y ago
Crypto sounds way cooler and can be prepended to things much more easily. It’s a social market out there.
sadfasf122 6y ago
Cryptocurrency - therefore crypto for short. /thread.
ccamrobertson 6y ago
Regardless of the "crypto" shorthand, blockchains are distinct from cryptocurrencies. A cryptocurrency can exist without using a blockchain to record balance changes, and likewise, a blockchain can exist which is not used for recording accounts or spendable outputs. The "crypto" shorthand emerged from the cryptocurrency side, which by and large, uses cryptographic primitives in order to spend and receive value. One further bit worth adding is that the market demand for cryptocurrencies broadly has directed massive amounts of resources towards the development of novel cryptographic primitives.

RichardHeart 6y ago

Add to that: 16.5 You will be demonized by everyone except those that participate in what you build. 17. Every dollar spent on dev didn't 40x in ETH over the last year, or 400x in some other things. 18. Centralized gatekeeping of the "decentralized" projects both in coin ranking sites and exchanges. 19. Constant and never ending copycats and straight scams impersonating your brand. 20. People duct-taping coins onto what you build and stealing your users (ala sushi vampire attack on uniswap.) 21. Advertising is banned everywhere for you (reddit, facebook, youtube, google, etc) Caveat: Founder of #14 on nomics.)

vmception 6y ago
> Every dollar spent on dev didn't 40x in ETH over the last year, or 400x in some other things. Yes, but thats why you collect a ton of other people’s money in token sale revenue to begin with! You have larger than normal overhead costs, but still larger than normal earnings

literallyWTF 6y ago

He forgot the most important part, hope your revolutionary x-coin reaches a few cents and cash out in US dollars.

jcpham2 6y ago

It would be super awesome if the personalities attracted to this would realize they are many many years too late to attract anyone else to their scheme. That's my personal opinion but ya'll seem to like that over here on the 'ol HN (aka the new slashdot)

dylkil 6y ago
every cycle has a new "trick", e.g. in 2017 ICO's to tokenise everything, in 2020/2021 IDO's, yield farming and NFTs.

christiansakai 6y ago

So he is a Bitcoin shill? lol. Nothing to see here boys. You get all you know already. Ironically this post happens near top as well lol http://paulgraham.com/newideas.html http://paulgraham.com/newideas.html

dylkil 6y ago
yes hes a bitcoin maximalist. Everything but bitcoin is bad according to him.
- atweiden 6y ago
  “Bitcoin maximalist” is a pejorative invented by Vitalik Buterin circa the Ethereum ICO. It’s best understood as a laxative for one’s disposable income, prescribed by the Ethereum doctors to be imbibed by would-be altcoin investors. Altcoin promoters quickly attached themselves to the term for financially motivated reasons, unsurprisingly. Notably it has little to no meme/entertainment value: its value is strictly limited to psychological warfare, and is rooted in sophistry.
  - dylkil 6y ago
    are you being serious

jude- 6y ago

He forgot a point: exchanges are the house, and the house always wins. Want your token to be traded on an exchange? You'll pay a fee, you'll do all the integration legwork for them pro bono, and then they'll skim money off of all the trades on your token in perpetuity.

arberx 6y ago
Thankfully there are now DEXs which are super cool. uniswap.org
- jude- 6y ago
  Thank you for reaffirming my point! If you want your token traded on uniswap, you'll write the integration code pro bono, you'll pay a fee (a transaction fee to deploy it), and Ethereum miners (who run uniswap) skim transaction fees off of your token trades in perpetuity.
  - wmf 6y ago
    So clearly every token should have its own exchange.
    - jude- 6y ago
      I didn't say that. I'm saying that it's another unanticipated burden of building out a crypto project, which is what this twitter thread is going on about. EDIT: Also, sure, why not own the exchange too if you can swing it? Less middlemen taking a cut from your revenue.
  - arberx 6y ago
    There's no "integration" code-once your token is on the blockchain if can be traded on uni once there's enough liquidity. Using the network is not "skimming" transactions.
    - jude- 6y ago

idlewords 6y ago

It is hard being a tulip grower!

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p4bl0 6y ago

For those who thought this was n interesting link about starting to work on cryptology related project: it's not This has nothing to do with crypto it is yet another thread about scam energy-wasting fake money.

yunusabd 6y ago

Most of the comments here seem to revolve around "traditional" crytocurrencies that are more or less copycats of Bitcoin with no real value-add. I think what most people don't realize is how much crypto has changed since 2017, mainly through Ethereum and the concept of smart contracts. The idea of running (immutable) functions on a decentralized network combined with transaction of value has so many interesting applications, that I believe we haven't even scratched the surface of what's possible. Shameless plug: We're in the middle of validating/refining an idea for a tokenized e-commerce platform. The main idea is that a tokenized platform can shift the incentives for all actors to produce drastically different outcomes. So we're more about embracing the game-theoretical side of crypto than the technical side. https://shopla.shop https://shopla.shop Curious what you guys think, any feedback is welcome.

asdev 6y ago
unless your platform is better than shopify or your fees are 90% less, I don't see how you can compete
- yunusabd 6y ago
  90% is a lot, but we do plan on having lower fees.

aero- 6y ago

Still waiting for someone to name one singular measurable impact of a crypto project. It's a solution that's been searching for a problem for over 10 years. Decentralized, distributed, blah blah, stop drinking the koolaid. Is a network controlled primarily by 4 mining companies decentralized? Do you need a distributed network to sell NFTS that are only useable within the world of a specific video game company? (game nfts) Name a project that can't be accomplished traditionally with the cloud and some code? Name a reason why you should leave your FDIC insured government backed bank for a 3rd party wallet and incur transaction fees, gas fees, fraud, hacks ect that are equivalent to wire transfer fees cbx fees ect. The crypto community has been spewing advantages that don't exist and solutions for problems that do. not. exist.

conanbatt 6y ago
> Still waiting for someone to name one singular measurable impact of a crypto project. It's a solution that's been searching for a problem for over 10 years. Protection against a devaluing currency, privacy and access.
- deleted 6y ago
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inteoryx 6y ago
I was looking at a project called Helium or HNT. The basic idea is that "miners" are running something like a mix between a WiFi endpoint and a personal cell tower. People can use HNT tokens to get network access and the miners earn the tokens by providing the access. I thought it seemed like a pretty neat idea and was encouraged by the fact that this crypto project actually did something useful. As I looked into it though I could only find people talking about how to mine the token, or details about the price, and nobody was talking about using the network. I wanted to try the network myself, or see if I could get a device on the network and what the service was like. It's a little naive of me, but at first I was imagining something like cell service being provided by this system. I was wondering what it would take to get my laptop on it and imagining having a network connection wherever for a low price. When I looked into it though I didn't find anyone using the network. The limitations on the network were severe, if I recall correctly their pricing calculator shows you the price of network usage in terms of cost per packet, where a packet can send something like 16 bits of information. Their envisioned use case was a collar for pets to wear that could ping the network once a day, but to my knowledge no such collars had actually been created or sold... Disappointed to find something that looked kind of useful at first glance actually resolve to something that looks kind of useless.

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Lindn182 6y ago

Please upvote

RamblingCTO 6y ago

To be honest I really hope this cryptocurrency and blockchain bullshit fad is dying really, really soon. Lots of promises and bold "ideas". We waste our precious resources on something that just benefits what feels like a few people but claims to bring decentralization. I think you can have all the cool projects without any blockchain/crypto bullshit. Nobody wants to do their due diligence with the regulations though and that's dangerous. We're polluting our atmosphere with something that is broken af.