4 ms·

I think you are touching on some interesting points, but don't go deep enough. (Just as a point of reference I played up until the hamster release) I would sa

I think you are touching on some interesting points, but don't go deep enough. (Just as a point of reference I played up until the hamster release) I would say that the core design of characters with cooldown skills and very powerful ultimates that need to be chain to team wipe opposition ARE the crux of why everything is impossible to do right in the Overwatch. I have played ladder for first few seasons and its essentially, get a 'pick kill' and save ultimates, combo ultimates to push through a chokepoint. That is very cookie cutter experience that gets old really quickly. They pushed themselves into making characters that have to have a spike impact in the game (their ultimate) or they are garbage tier character. Adding new heros that need to follow the same design principles further locks them down into that principle, or they would have to rework +20 characters in one go. Also the cancel and force movement abilities are extremely frustrating. I remember reading Team Fortress 2 dev blogs and they made a design point of never doing those, and limit the one shot kill experiences (since then I believe there are couple mechanics like that in TF2 and they are unfun). There is nothing more frustrating that getting hooked and spending next 2 seconds knowing you will die. Taking away player agency is frustrating experience. As you mentioned the characters are locked into set meta, railroading players into who you pick and how you played given hero. No flexibility, no verity. I haven't played CS or TF2 in a long time but on odd occasion I would watch a twitch stream of some tournaments. CS is one of the best competitive esport to watch - hands down. Its very easy to understand, rounds are quick and economy makes sure that there is some verity to available weapons and tactics from round to round. Despite playing overwatch their esport is not fun to watch. Its messy, hard to follow. Again due to ultimates you have game of hide and seek into all ults are out screen is flashing and after dust settles back to hide and seek. ... man I care way too much about this

taurath 5y ago
Very similar thing plays out in MOBAs. CC is always powerful because it removes agency. Getting killed with no counter isn’t fun. Playing against a ton of healers isn’t fun. Yet for all those things in combination it’s a lot better than a counterstrike-like experience of whoever sees the pixel first wins. Having a mechanic that forces fights during inopportune times helps, that’s why I tend to like Mobas with creeps and side objectives. That’s something that OW could add that might force a less “everyone push down mid” mentality.
- me_me_me 5y ago
  CS as a pixel hunter is very shallow view of the game, its like saying that Starcraft is just click per minute competition or football just kicking a ball. CS is about reading opponent, creating opportunities and reacting to what is happening. Pixel hunting is very last step. That said, DotA is by far the best esport to watch if and only if you played it before and can follow what's happening.
  - taurath 5y ago
    It’s an absolutely gross oversimplification of course, and my intention wasn’t to disparage it. Your description could of course be applied to any pvp game :p
joppy 5y ago
On the other hand, one of the things I like so much about Overwatch and TF2 is the importance of mobility and crazy movement patterns - with some characters you can be flying around the map, ending up in odd places, and characters usually have enough HP to be in a good fight with someone when they land. By contrast CS offers nothing like this - movement is always strictly along the ground/ladders/stairs etc, and gunfights are more like who saw who first. It just feels boring to play in comparison - sure the tactics are interesting, but there’s nothing like the feeling of freedom you get from some other games. I’d like there to be more of a focus on games that are fun to play, in terms of movement and combat mechanics just feeling awesome. Horizon Zero Dawn is another great example of making combat awesome.
- rkuykendall-com 5y ago
  I haven't played Halo 5 multiplayer (no PC release) but I've seen movement-videos and they look _incredible_. Incredibly fun even just to watch! I'm curious to see if an improvement on that, plus the possible addition of grappling, can do in Infinite.

taurath 5y ago

Very similar thing plays out in MOBAs. CC is always powerful because it removes agency. Getting killed with no counter isn’t fun. Playing against a ton of healers isn’t fun. Yet for all those things in combination it’s a lot better than a counterstrike-like experience of whoever sees the pixel first wins. Having a mechanic that forces fights during inopportune times helps, that’s why I tend to like Mobas with creeps and side objectives. That’s something that OW could add that might force a less “everyone push down mid” mentality.

me_me_me 5y ago
CS as a pixel hunter is very shallow view of the game, its like saying that Starcraft is just click per minute competition or football just kicking a ball. CS is about reading opponent, creating opportunities and reacting to what is happening. Pixel hunting is very last step. That said, DotA is by far the best esport to watch if and only if you played it before and can follow what's happening.
- taurath 5y ago
  It’s an absolutely gross oversimplification of course, and my intention wasn’t to disparage it. Your description could of course be applied to any pvp game :p

joppy 5y ago

On the other hand, one of the things I like so much about Overwatch and TF2 is the importance of mobility and crazy movement patterns - with some characters you can be flying around the map, ending up in odd places, and characters usually have enough HP to be in a good fight with someone when they land. By contrast CS offers nothing like this - movement is always strictly along the ground/ladders/stairs etc, and gunfights are more like who saw who first. It just feels boring to play in comparison - sure the tactics are interesting, but there’s nothing like the feeling of freedom you get from some other games. I’d like there to be more of a focus on games that are fun to play, in terms of movement and combat mechanics just feeling awesome. Horizon Zero Dawn is another great example of making combat awesome.

rkuykendall-com 5y ago
I haven't played Halo 5 multiplayer (no PC release) but I've seen movement-videos and they look _incredible_. Incredibly fun even just to watch! I'm curious to see if an improvement on that, plus the possible addition of grappling, can do in Infinite.