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Something here smells deeply hypocritical. Currently vaccine companies such as the German Curevac (which is the vaccine company Trump famously tried to buy) is

Something here smells deeply hypocritical. Currently vaccine companies such as the German Curevac (which is the vaccine company Trump famously tried to buy) is being held back by lack of core ingredients which are under American export bans. The US still upholds the export bans setup by the Trump administration. Biden can just revoke those. Yet he promotes the idea of waivering vaccine patents knowing well how hard that would be to do in practice. And exactly how is it supposed to work? Will Pfizer no longer have to pay license fees to BioNTech?

fxtentacle 6y ago
I believe this is exactly the reason why the US promotes it and Germany opposes it. It's mainly a discussion about whether Pfizer (US) has to pay licensing fees to Biontech (DE).
- andy_ppp 6y ago
  Yes, it seems pointless if there’s no generics being made, but I would be very concerned about assuming a generic of a vaccine is the same. We already have enough vaccine hesitancy, adding in extra variables doesn’t seem great.
- elliekelly 6y ago
  Is there anywhere I can read more about this? In the grand scheme of American healthcare costs I don’t think the ~$20 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is where we should suddenly try to cut costs by stiffing the scientists who did all the hard work over a decade to make it happen. I’m assuming the current $20 price tag already includes BioNTech’s fees?
makomk 6y ago
Yeah, and if Trump was still in power I have zero doubt the media would call him out on what a cynical stunt this is - but Biden is in charge now, and that makes a huge difference to how they report on everything.
- Tarsul 6y ago
  Well, Trumps actions would have been self-serving and cynical (as they all were). Biden hasn't shown those 'qualities'. Which is why I (and the WHO) give him the benefit of the doubt in this case.
  - zo1 6y ago
    But somehow some random "throwaway" account on a forum has more info than all of Biden's advisers? "Benefit of the doubt" is just a cover. We must assume competence and intent on the administration's part and hold them accountable for it (or give them credit), otherwise we're letting our bias/favoritism show through.
    - true_religion 6y ago
      Let's be fair. We all gave Trump the benefit of the doubt. It was only after years of broken promises, and angry outbursts that some people turned against him by default. Give Biden at least 1 year, and you'll see that some people are reflexively critical of him too.
      - mbg721 6y ago
        Centrist voters may have given him some benefit of the doubt, but the news media never did and were never going to. Conservatives knew that ahead of time, which is why they voted for someone prone to angry outbursts. Biden isn't exactly an outsider, and is just the face for scores of actual decision-makers in his administration; I don't think one more year is going to surprise anybody.
        true_religion 6y ago
        The news media is largely conservative. Over 50% of people in the US watch Fox news. Now, granted, Murdoch wasn't always in favor of Trump, he still fell into line after the guy got elected.
jollybean 6y ago
Opening up the IP is a 'win' for almost everyone but the companies making vaccines, so there's not much downside. Exporting individual vaccines might break contracts, and because it's a little bit zero-sum, the public at large may hold him in contempt for not putting 'America first'.
- username90 6y ago
  Biden would 100% be against it if it was an American company that held the patents. He'd say that we shouldn't throw the company that worked so hard to provide us with a vaccine under the buss just to save money. Removing the patent doesn't save more people, just as many vaccines would get produced, it just shifts money from the company to the state that pays for the vaccine.
  - jollybean 6y ago
    I share your cynicism, but it actually will change the vaccine equation. Money and risk is a very material part of the equation, now that the dynamics have changed, a lot more speculative money will be available. Supply and Demand works on cash just as it does for other things. Also I don't think it has a populist aspect. Exporting 'already made vaccines' does have a populist risk - a lot of Americans may 'get really mad!' if the US is seen to be exporting vaccines to other places before the US is fully vaccinated, irrespective of whether their chagrin is misplaced or not, the news cycle populism may have a field day with that. And there's the contractual stuff which he cannot 'waive'.
    - username90 6y ago
      USA has the means to produce a lot of it, Europe had the means to develop it. Doesn't make sense that USA gets to enjoy all the benefits of producing without giving Europe any credit for developing it. Why should EU share its research with USA in the future if USA doesn't want to reciprocate?
      - jollybean 6y ago
apexalpha 6y ago
The US put an export ban on basically everything regarding vaccines, very early on. If you look at the amount of vaccines produced, the US and EU are fairly close to each other. The difference in Vaccine rollout comes from the fact that the EU exports vaccines to other countries while the US does not. As a European I would've been in favour of more export controls, but a total ban seems to go too far. Why should 18 years olds in the EU/US receive a vaccine before 75 year olds in other countries? Then again, the EU exported to countries that are now further ahead than the EU itself, which seems the other extreme end.
- wayoutthere 6y ago
  > Why should 18 years olds in the EU/US receive a vaccine before 75 year olds in other countries? I don’t know what the EU governments kicked in, but the US basically threw tens of billions of dollars at the US pharma giants to bankroll the wide-scale rollout of not one but three vaccines. The patents are largely European, but the rapid scale-up of production was only possible because of US contributions (true on both sides of the ocean as the US paid to build factories in Europe too in exchange for priority access). But on a larger scale, individual outcomes are somewhat meaningless in the scope of government. Each country’s government has a duty to protect the public health of its citizens, which means trying to get to herd immunity within its own population. It’s like putting on your own mask before helping someone else.
- throwaway4good 6y ago
  The EU approached the vaccine production with hopeless naivete while the UK and US approached it like they were at war. Biden speaks in a nicer manner but he is still doing the policies of Trump's America First. IMHO we in Europe should return the favour and start working with the Chinese on vaccine production. They are the only ones with an industrial capacity comparable to the US.
  - sschueller 6y ago
    The US and UK approach it as if they are at war with everyone else. It is very sad to see where their priorities really are when this is a global issue not separated by borders. The resulting chip shortage and the state which India is in will also affect the US and UK even if they don't think it will.
throwaway6734 6y ago
>Currently vaccine companies such as the German Curevac (which is the vaccine company Trump famously tried to buy) is being held back by lack of core ingredients which are under American export bans. Do you know specifically which materials?
- blywi 6y ago
  I had the exact same question. What I could find was this Reuters article [0] which lists nucleotides and special plastic containers as two of the items in short supply. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/curevac-says-mass-vaccine-rollout-thrown-into-doubt-by-us-restrictions-2021-05-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

fxtentacle 6y ago

I believe this is exactly the reason why the US promotes it and Germany opposes it. It's mainly a discussion about whether Pfizer (US) has to pay licensing fees to Biontech (DE).

andy_ppp 6y ago
Yes, it seems pointless if there’s no generics being made, but I would be very concerned about assuming a generic of a vaccine is the same. We already have enough vaccine hesitancy, adding in extra variables doesn’t seem great.
elliekelly 6y ago
Is there anywhere I can read more about this? In the grand scheme of American healthcare costs I don’t think the ~$20 Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is where we should suddenly try to cut costs by stiffing the scientists who did all the hard work over a decade to make it happen. I’m assuming the current $20 price tag already includes BioNTech’s fees?

makomk 6y ago

Yeah, and if Trump was still in power I have zero doubt the media would call him out on what a cynical stunt this is - but Biden is in charge now, and that makes a huge difference to how they report on everything.

Tarsul 6y ago
Well, Trumps actions would have been self-serving and cynical (as they all were). Biden hasn't shown those 'qualities'. Which is why I (and the WHO) give him the benefit of the doubt in this case.
- zo1 6y ago
  But somehow some random "throwaway" account on a forum has more info than all of Biden's advisers? "Benefit of the doubt" is just a cover. We must assume competence and intent on the administration's part and hold them accountable for it (or give them credit), otherwise we're letting our bias/favoritism show through.
  - true_religion 6y ago
    Let's be fair. We all gave Trump the benefit of the doubt. It was only after years of broken promises, and angry outbursts that some people turned against him by default. Give Biden at least 1 year, and you'll see that some people are reflexively critical of him too.
    - mbg721 6y ago
      Centrist voters may have given him some benefit of the doubt, but the news media never did and were never going to. Conservatives knew that ahead of time, which is why they voted for someone prone to angry outbursts. Biden isn't exactly an outsider, and is just the face for scores of actual decision-makers in his administration; I don't think one more year is going to surprise anybody.
      - true_religion 6y ago
        The news media is largely conservative. Over 50% of people in the US watch Fox news. Now, granted, Murdoch wasn't always in favor of Trump, he still fell into line after the guy got elected.

jollybean 6y ago

Opening up the IP is a 'win' for almost everyone but the companies making vaccines, so there's not much downside. Exporting individual vaccines might break contracts, and because it's a little bit zero-sum, the public at large may hold him in contempt for not putting 'America first'.

username90 6y ago
Biden would 100% be against it if it was an American company that held the patents. He'd say that we shouldn't throw the company that worked so hard to provide us with a vaccine under the buss just to save money. Removing the patent doesn't save more people, just as many vaccines would get produced, it just shifts money from the company to the state that pays for the vaccine.
- jollybean 6y ago
  I share your cynicism, but it actually will change the vaccine equation. Money and risk is a very material part of the equation, now that the dynamics have changed, a lot more speculative money will be available. Supply and Demand works on cash just as it does for other things. Also I don't think it has a populist aspect. Exporting 'already made vaccines' does have a populist risk - a lot of Americans may 'get really mad!' if the US is seen to be exporting vaccines to other places before the US is fully vaccinated, irrespective of whether their chagrin is misplaced or not, the news cycle populism may have a field day with that. And there's the contractual stuff which he cannot 'waive'.
  - username90 6y ago
    USA has the means to produce a lot of it, Europe had the means to develop it. Doesn't make sense that USA gets to enjoy all the benefits of producing without giving Europe any credit for developing it. Why should EU share its research with USA in the future if USA doesn't want to reciprocate?
    - jollybean 6y ago

apexalpha 6y ago

The US put an export ban on basically everything regarding vaccines, very early on. If you look at the amount of vaccines produced, the US and EU are fairly close to each other. The difference in Vaccine rollout comes from the fact that the EU exports vaccines to other countries while the US does not. As a European I would've been in favour of more export controls, but a total ban seems to go too far. Why should 18 years olds in the EU/US receive a vaccine before 75 year olds in other countries? Then again, the EU exported to countries that are now further ahead than the EU itself, which seems the other extreme end.

wayoutthere 6y ago
> Why should 18 years olds in the EU/US receive a vaccine before 75 year olds in other countries? I don’t know what the EU governments kicked in, but the US basically threw tens of billions of dollars at the US pharma giants to bankroll the wide-scale rollout of not one but three vaccines. The patents are largely European, but the rapid scale-up of production was only possible because of US contributions (true on both sides of the ocean as the US paid to build factories in Europe too in exchange for priority access). But on a larger scale, individual outcomes are somewhat meaningless in the scope of government. Each country’s government has a duty to protect the public health of its citizens, which means trying to get to herd immunity within its own population. It’s like putting on your own mask before helping someone else.
throwaway4good 6y ago
The EU approached the vaccine production with hopeless naivete while the UK and US approached it like they were at war. Biden speaks in a nicer manner but he is still doing the policies of Trump's America First. IMHO we in Europe should return the favour and start working with the Chinese on vaccine production. They are the only ones with an industrial capacity comparable to the US.
- sschueller 6y ago
  The US and UK approach it as if they are at war with everyone else. It is very sad to see where their priorities really are when this is a global issue not separated by borders. The resulting chip shortage and the state which India is in will also affect the US and UK even if they don't think it will.

throwaway6734 6y ago

>Currently vaccine companies such as the German Curevac (which is the vaccine company Trump famously tried to buy) is being held back by lack of core ingredients which are under American export bans. Do you know specifically which materials?

blywi 6y ago
I had the exact same question. What I could find was this Reuters article [0] which lists nucleotides and special plastic containers as two of the items in short supply. [0] https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/curevac-says-mass-vaccine-rollout-thrown-into-doubt-by-us-restrictions-2021-05-04/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...