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My questions for people who don't believe in sex-based personality differences: 1. Do you believe that hormones like testosterone have large impacts on a perso

My questions for people who don't believe in sex-based personality differences: 1. Do you believe that hormones like testosterone have large impacts on a person's behavior? 2. Do you believe that men have roughly 20x more testosterone in their blood serum than women? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Testosterone_levels_in_males_and_females https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Testosterone_levels_i...

google234123 5y ago
I'm sure there is a cultural reason why men have more testosterone in their blood /s
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't take HN threads in a flamewar direction. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
hnarn 5y ago
How does accepting both of these somehow invalidate the belief that gendered behavior is mostly social or learned?
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  Or the idea that we shouldn't be using population-level trend data to implement statistical discrimination on the individual level.
- bluetonium 5y ago
  I think the person you're responding to said "for people who don't believe in sex-based personality differences" Asserting that there are sex-based personality differences is not incompatible with gendered behavior being mostly social or learned.
- kingsuper20 5y ago
  My take is that it takes social and learned behavior to overcome gender differences. They tamp down, not amplify.
- cwbrandsma 5y ago
  For myself, because I have raised children of my own. I have 5 kids, 2 boys and 3 girls. At 2 years old, kids do not give a flying fuck about social norms. They just want to play. And from the earliest ages you see children playing differently based on gender. You give a small child the choice between a doll and a stick, you can guess which will be picked by gender and be right most of the time. Give your daughter a dump truck and she will turn it into a stroller. Give your son a doll and he will be wrestling with it.
  - _nothing 5y ago
    This may be your experience, however I have extreme doubt that these are anything but learned behaviors. There is nothing intrinsically masculine or feminine about sticks, dump trucks, strollers, or dolls. They are just objects, and for the majority of human existence the latter three didn't even exist in their current form. All knowledge of these objects, what they're used for, and who uses them were learned from societal influences. A kid doesn't have to care about social norms to tell that most people they see playing with sticks or driving dump trucks are men, and most people they see pushing strollers and playing with dolls are women. It's like that from out in the park to within picture books.
    - nec4b 5y ago
      What is your experience or could you link to a study that confirms your point of view?
orwin 5y ago
1. Yes, although "large" should be reformulated. It does have an impact on aggressiveness it seems. 2. Yes. Doesn't change the fact that most comportments and interests are mainly ruled by social environment and upbringing, and biology only have this little impact (and it is still probably less that my brain will attribute, but at least i'm self-aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). Unless you think poor people are biologically less interested in space, earth crust, plants, sailing, horseriding, i'd be pretty confident in saying that most differences between children are in fact solely based on culture. This might evolve later (puberty hit!), but considering childhood is the crux of so much of your later choices I've been a youth camp counselor, and in my country, classes are not always segregated when going to those camps (they are more and more tbh), and with this experience i can say: you tell me your child hobbies and dreams, i can tell you your income quintile (or social class rather, as cultural inheritance is not always correlated to income), whether it's a boy or girl, and if his family emigrated recently. Only work if you're from my country, but i'm sure if you talk to any youth camp counselor in your country who cared and worked this job for six+ years, he'd be able to do the same.
- blaser-waffle 5y ago
  I love how this manages to touch on class, race, and a whole bunch of issues, while also managing to derail the conversation to some sort of camp kid discussion. > Doesn't change the fact that most comportments and interests are mainly ruled by social environment and upbringing, and biology only have this little impact (and it is still probably less that my brain will attribute, but at least i'm self-aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). Twin studies disprove this. Separated twins, in different parts of the country, end up doing the same sort of jobs and marrying the same kind of people. We're willing to assume different dog breeds -- all the same species -- have different temperaments, why wouldn't this apply to people. Even Dobermans can be trained to be nice dogs, but that means the training is overcoming the urge to bite.

google234123 5y ago

I'm sure there is a cultural reason why men have more testosterone in their blood /s

dang 5y ago
Please don't take HN threads in a flamewar direction. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

hnarn 5y ago

How does accepting both of these somehow invalidate the belief that gendered behavior is mostly social or learned?

InitialLastName 5y ago
Or the idea that we shouldn't be using population-level trend data to implement statistical discrimination on the individual level.
bluetonium 5y ago
I think the person you're responding to said "for people who don't believe in sex-based personality differences" Asserting that there are sex-based personality differences is not incompatible with gendered behavior being mostly social or learned.
kingsuper20 5y ago
My take is that it takes social and learned behavior to overcome gender differences. They tamp down, not amplify.
cwbrandsma 5y ago
For myself, because I have raised children of my own. I have 5 kids, 2 boys and 3 girls. At 2 years old, kids do not give a flying fuck about social norms. They just want to play. And from the earliest ages you see children playing differently based on gender. You give a small child the choice between a doll and a stick, you can guess which will be picked by gender and be right most of the time. Give your daughter a dump truck and she will turn it into a stroller. Give your son a doll and he will be wrestling with it.
- _nothing 5y ago
  This may be your experience, however I have extreme doubt that these are anything but learned behaviors. There is nothing intrinsically masculine or feminine about sticks, dump trucks, strollers, or dolls. They are just objects, and for the majority of human existence the latter three didn't even exist in their current form. All knowledge of these objects, what they're used for, and who uses them were learned from societal influences. A kid doesn't have to care about social norms to tell that most people they see playing with sticks or driving dump trucks are men, and most people they see pushing strollers and playing with dolls are women. It's like that from out in the park to within picture books.
  - nec4b 5y ago
    What is your experience or could you link to a study that confirms your point of view?

orwin 5y ago

1. Yes, although "large" should be reformulated. It does have an impact on aggressiveness it seems. 2. Yes. Doesn't change the fact that most comportments and interests are mainly ruled by social environment and upbringing, and biology only have this little impact (and it is still probably less that my brain will attribute, but at least i'm self-aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). Unless you think poor people are biologically less interested in space, earth crust, plants, sailing, horseriding, i'd be pretty confident in saying that most differences between children are in fact solely based on culture. This might evolve later (puberty hit!), but considering childhood is the crux of so much of your later choices I've been a youth camp counselor, and in my country, classes are not always segregated when going to those camps (they are more and more tbh), and with this experience i can say: you tell me your child hobbies and dreams, i can tell you your income quintile (or social class rather, as cultural inheritance is not always correlated to income), whether it's a boy or girl, and if his family emigrated recently. Only work if you're from my country, but i'm sure if you talk to any youth camp counselor in your country who cared and worked this job for six+ years, he'd be able to do the same.

blaser-waffle 5y ago
I love how this manages to touch on class, race, and a whole bunch of issues, while also managing to derail the conversation to some sort of camp kid discussion. > Doesn't change the fact that most comportments and interests are mainly ruled by social environment and upbringing, and biology only have this little impact (and it is still probably less that my brain will attribute, but at least i'm self-aware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_attribution_error). Twin studies disprove this. Separated twins, in different parts of the country, end up doing the same sort of jobs and marrying the same kind of people. We're willing to assume different dog breeds -- all the same species -- have different temperaments, why wouldn't this apply to people. Even Dobermans can be trained to be nice dogs, but that means the training is overcoming the urge to bite.