12 ms·

>having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. It is for many, many, many people.

edgyquant 6y ago
Yeah people who say this are so wrong, companionship and a significant other is a required for a fulfilled life for a majority of people. We evolved to have this, and most people need it. You shouldn’t depend on one for happiness, but there is nothing wrong or weird about longing for one.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    Totally, but most people are not emotionally well adjusted or in a place where they an introspect and build themselves up to be the better version of themselves. A lot of folks would be helped by therapy and having someone to talk through to work through this (but that's a healthcare conversation, which we don't have to devolve into here). I unequivocally do not condone folks who go off the rails in ways that cause harm to others (self destruction and harm is similar, but a different conversation), but I've seen enough mental health challenges and crises to understand why it happens. In general, life is hard, and no one is coming to save you except yourself.
  - edgyquant 6y ago
    Indeed, you shouldn’t based your identity around it or blame others (e.g. incels) but at the same time you shouldn’t be made to field there’s something wrong with you for wanting it. Like most things there is a balance to be found. I think the stars every day that I failed my way into relationships for most of my life and I can’t imagine the struggle of these individuals.
    - dnautics 6y ago
      I don't think the identity of inceldom is necessarily blaming others for being lonely (though probably most incels do), but being angry at society for trying to sell an incorrect narrative of relationships.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    On the flip flip side, no one owes anyone anything (except bodily integrity). You aren't entitled to a partner who does a certain number of hours of chores; you aren't entitled to a specific or any job title; you aren't entitled to a particular lifestyle; you aren't entitled to respect and admiration. That doesn't mean the only valid approach is to criticize people who systemically have a harder time reaching those things and feel frustrated by it. We can simultaneously tell individuals to work on self-improvement to get themselves out of tough situations while also recognizing that society can do things to make life fairer and better for everybody.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - M277 6y ago
    I agree with you wholeheartedly, but there's a small problem here (and it's not just in the West) -- people dismiss these people, call them names, and put a dark label on them. And yet, quite often they need help. Changing one's personality, mastering new skills, etc etc. are not small nor easy steps. And some people may not even be capable of doing them by themselves. So what do they do? They seek out people and go public with their frustration... and they come across two groups: Group A, who call them names and shun them out, and Group B, who claim they understand them and talk with them.... all while telling them things like "Look, it's not your fault, man." "They're all whores", etc. What do you think happens next? What I am trying to say is, some empathy and understanding would go a long way. I get that some people don't want to help themselves and are beyond saving, but there are many others who just need a small push to improve themselves.
  - matheusmoreira 6y ago
    > it's on you to improve yourself Incels call this "maxxing". It doesn't seem to be particularly effective for them. > Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance. Why? Reducing inequality in dating seems like a fair goal to me. People become incels because everyone else rejects them. If that doesn't change, the number of incels will keep growing.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. It's not just find some stat to max and done, positioning the problem this way is itself part of the problem. > Reducing inequality in dating What does this mean, be specific. I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women.
      - matheusmoreira 6y ago
        > It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. So they don't need to improve themselves, they just need to believe in the right things and suddenly women will value them. Really? > I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women. And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. Look at data from online dating services, plenty of evidence showing over 80% of men are rejected outright. Do you think this is normal?
        Pfhreak 6y ago
        No, you misunderstand. They are optimizing for what they think will get them success, not what will actually get them success. > And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. No, incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date. What toxic nonsense. And also, you still haven't put forward any changes you'd like to see to remedy the situation as you see it. Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.
  - 2lwxxtj 6y ago
    >no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). That's your opinion. >is a real problematic stance. Oh, no, not problematic! What if there are actually external factors that influence your ability to succeed, and you would like to advocate for modifying those external factors to increase your ability to succeed?
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      >>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). > That's your opinion Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. So let me ask you, what changes do you propose, and who owes you a relationship?
      - 2lwxxtj 6y ago
        >Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. Not really. If you're talking specifically about whether an unmarried man that fits some particular criteria is owed a wife, most people in the western world at this point in time would agree with you. But that's far from universal. >The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Not really. "Individual liberty and freedom" is not one concrete set of ideas that you have to either accept or reject wholesale. >Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. Some are, probably. I don't know which you've been talking to. >what changes do you propose Bring back severe social shaming for women that engage in sexual activity outside of a committed monogamous relationship (e.g. marriage or on the way to marriage). Bring back social pressure for a man to marry a woman that he has had sex with outside of marriage. >and who owes you a relationship I am married, so I think from society's perspective, my wife should owe me a relationship. If either of us denies the other a relationship without very good reason (meaning something more than just not being happy any more), the one abandoning the marriage should be looked down upon as having done something very wrong.
- ryandrake 6y ago
  It's kind of like a rich person telling a poor person "hey, money isn't everything!" True, but it won't make the poor person feel any better.
- benlivengood 6y ago
  > You shouldn’t depend on one for happiness, but there is nothing wrong or weird about longing for one. Precisely; too many men rely on partnership to meet most or all of their emotional needs and that is what drives intense loneliness when they don't have a partner.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
YinglingLight 6y ago
Happiness comes and goes with the wind. Greet it openly when it visits you, but it will be gone tomorrow. Seek contentment instead.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
I don't think that is true, but that's because I think there's a huge difference between what people think will make them happy and what actually will. The former tends to be an ever moving target, the latter requires a change in perspective that takes quite a bit of effort and doesn't make anyone any money.
- NickM 6y ago
  Not sure why you're getting downvoted; others may not agree, but I think you have a very valid opinion. It is an incredibly common human experience to think "I would be happy if only I had X," only to find that achieving X does not actually make one happy.
flatline 6y ago
I believe everyone is capable of being happy in their own company. It may take a lifetime of work for some people to achieve this. We are social creatures and human interaction is essential for our well-being, but that doesn't mean you can't have your own personal goals and interests or just simply enjoy time with yourself: you are a human being in your own company, too! Frankly without that ability you are not going to have healthy relationships with others no matter how good looking or successful you are. I know so many unhappy couples that put on a good front. I was part of one for years. In the West in particular we are crippled with insecurity, anxiety and doubt. Are we masculine/feminine enough? Do we fit the image we have of other people's desires? We have incredible wealth and abundance and feel like shit. It's a societal ill as well as a personal one. It is possible to practice contentment, gratitude, and self-compassion and acceptance, these are just things that are not taught or idealized in our culture. I do think the mindfulness movement, commercialized though it may be, has something to offer to modern secular society.
tachyonbeam 6y ago
That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell them that they suck, call them names and walk away. This can cause them to become more radicalized. I was raised by a mentally ill single mom, on welfare. In many ways, my emotional maturity really lagged behind that of other guys. I didn't know how to make friends, let alone how to approach women or form a healthy relationship. I did eventually manage, but it took me years of learning during my 20s. When I was a young man, I struggled with some pretty bitter feelings myself, and I feel like society didn't make it easy to overcome them. Even today, the not so ambiguous message that society sends to young men is: if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault, because you are not enough. It just adds insult to injury, particularly when you're really missing closeness and understanding, when you feel alone and wounded. IMO, the modern discourse around gender only really goes one way. We hear about women's issues everyday, but even in 2021, it's no more okay for men to talk about the challenges they face than it was in the 1950s. Men are told to just suck it up, and that's a huge part of the problem. If feminism is really about gender equality, then it needs to allow some room for men to talk about their issues and concerns as well, without fear of judgment. I would also like to see words other than "toxic" being used to describe masculinity.
- benlivengood 6y ago
  At least in the bay area there are plenty of cuddle parties for platonic physical touch. Feminism has a pretty convincing answer to the problem like I edited my original comment to include. Toxic masculinity is the social exclusion of deep emotional relationships between men, including the "suck it up" culture. The key is that only men can really participate in that healing because it's entirely a problem between men. Women, as I've observed, seek out deep emotional friendships with other women and have most of their emotional needs met that way. Men, for the most part, do not do that with other men.
  - 6y ago
74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago
So are sugar, TV and status symbols.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Yeah people who say this are so wrong, companionship and a significant other is a required for a fulfilled life for a majority of people. We evolved to have this, and most people need it. You shouldn’t depend on one for happiness, but there is nothing wrong or weird about longing for one.

Pfhreak 6y ago
On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  Totally, but most people are not emotionally well adjusted or in a place where they an introspect and build themselves up to be the better version of themselves. A lot of folks would be helped by therapy and having someone to talk through to work through this (but that's a healthcare conversation, which we don't have to devolve into here). I unequivocally do not condone folks who go off the rails in ways that cause harm to others (self destruction and harm is similar, but a different conversation), but I've seen enough mental health challenges and crises to understand why it happens. In general, life is hard, and no one is coming to save you except yourself.
- edgyquant 6y ago
  Indeed, you shouldn’t based your identity around it or blame others (e.g. incels) but at the same time you shouldn’t be made to field there’s something wrong with you for wanting it. Like most things there is a balance to be found. I think the stars every day that I failed my way into relationships for most of my life and I can’t imagine the struggle of these individuals.
  - dnautics 6y ago
    I don't think the identity of inceldom is necessarily blaming others for being lonely (though probably most incels do), but being angry at society for trying to sell an incorrect narrative of relationships.
- scarmig 6y ago
  On the flip flip side, no one owes anyone anything (except bodily integrity). You aren't entitled to a partner who does a certain number of hours of chores; you aren't entitled to a specific or any job title; you aren't entitled to a particular lifestyle; you aren't entitled to respect and admiration. That doesn't mean the only valid approach is to criticize people who systemically have a harder time reaching those things and feel frustrated by it. We can simultaneously tell individuals to work on self-improvement to get themselves out of tough situations while also recognizing that society can do things to make life fairer and better for everybody.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- M277 6y ago
  I agree with you wholeheartedly, but there's a small problem here (and it's not just in the West) -- people dismiss these people, call them names, and put a dark label on them. And yet, quite often they need help. Changing one's personality, mastering new skills, etc etc. are not small nor easy steps. And some people may not even be capable of doing them by themselves. So what do they do? They seek out people and go public with their frustration... and they come across two groups: Group A, who call them names and shun them out, and Group B, who claim they understand them and talk with them.... all while telling them things like "Look, it's not your fault, man." "They're all whores", etc. What do you think happens next? What I am trying to say is, some empathy and understanding would go a long way. I get that some people don't want to help themselves and are beyond saving, but there are many others who just need a small push to improve themselves.
- matheusmoreira 6y ago
  > it's on you to improve yourself Incels call this "maxxing". It doesn't seem to be particularly effective for them. > Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance. Why? Reducing inequality in dating seems like a fair goal to me. People become incels because everyone else rejects them. If that doesn't change, the number of incels will keep growing.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. It's not just find some stat to max and done, positioning the problem this way is itself part of the problem. > Reducing inequality in dating What does this mean, be specific. I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women.
    - matheusmoreira 6y ago
      > It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. So they don't need to improve themselves, they just need to believe in the right things and suddenly women will value them. Really? > I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women. And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. Look at data from online dating services, plenty of evidence showing over 80% of men are rejected outright. Do you think this is normal?
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        No, you misunderstand. They are optimizing for what they think will get them success, not what will actually get them success. > And yet it's this agency that created such a thing as incels. No, incels were not created created because women have agency in who they date. What toxic nonsense. And also, you still haven't put forward any changes you'd like to see to remedy the situation as you see it. Bring solutions to the table if you think there is a problem.
- 2lwxxtj 6y ago
  >no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). That's your opinion. >is a real problematic stance. Oh, no, not problematic! What if there are actually external factors that influence your ability to succeed, and you would like to advocate for modifying those external factors to increase your ability to succeed?
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    >>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). > That's your opinion Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. So let me ask you, what changes do you propose, and who owes you a relationship?
    - 2lwxxtj 6y ago
      >Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. Not really. If you're talking specifically about whether an unmarried man that fits some particular criteria is owed a wife, most people in the western world at this point in time would agree with you. But that's far from universal. >The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Not really. "Individual liberty and freedom" is not one concrete set of ideas that you have to either accept or reject wholesale. >Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics. Some are, probably. I don't know which you've been talking to. >what changes do you propose Bring back severe social shaming for women that engage in sexual activity outside of a committed monogamous relationship (e.g. marriage or on the way to marriage). Bring back social pressure for a man to marry a woman that he has had sex with outside of marriage. >and who owes you a relationship I am married, so I think from society's perspective, my wife should owe me a relationship. If either of us denies the other a relationship without very good reason (meaning something more than just not being happy any more), the one abandoning the marriage should be looked down upon as having done something very wrong.
ryandrake 6y ago
It's kind of like a rich person telling a poor person "hey, money isn't everything!" True, but it won't make the poor person feel any better.
benlivengood 6y ago
> You shouldn’t depend on one for happiness, but there is nothing wrong or weird about longing for one. Precisely; too many men rely on partnership to meet most or all of their emotional needs and that is what drives intense loneliness when they don't have a partner.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

YinglingLight 6y ago

Happiness comes and goes with the wind. Greet it openly when it visits you, but it will be gone tomorrow. Seek contentment instead.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

I don't think that is true, but that's because I think there's a huge difference between what people think will make them happy and what actually will. The former tends to be an ever moving target, the latter requires a change in perspective that takes quite a bit of effort and doesn't make anyone any money.

NickM 6y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted; others may not agree, but I think you have a very valid opinion. It is an incredibly common human experience to think "I would be happy if only I had X," only to find that achieving X does not actually make one happy.

flatline 6y ago

I believe everyone is capable of being happy in their own company. It may take a lifetime of work for some people to achieve this. We are social creatures and human interaction is essential for our well-being, but that doesn't mean you can't have your own personal goals and interests or just simply enjoy time with yourself: you are a human being in your own company, too! Frankly without that ability you are not going to have healthy relationships with others no matter how good looking or successful you are. I know so many unhappy couples that put on a good front. I was part of one for years. In the West in particular we are crippled with insecurity, anxiety and doubt. Are we masculine/feminine enough? Do we fit the image we have of other people's desires? We have incredible wealth and abundance and feel like shit. It's a societal ill as well as a personal one. It is possible to practice contentment, gratitude, and self-compassion and acceptance, these are just things that are not taught or idealized in our culture. I do think the mindfulness movement, commercialized though it may be, has something to offer to modern secular society.

tachyonbeam 6y ago

That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell them that they suck, call them names and walk away. This can cause them to become more radicalized. I was raised by a mentally ill single mom, on welfare. In many ways, my emotional maturity really lagged behind that of other guys. I didn't know how to make friends, let alone how to approach women or form a healthy relationship. I did eventually manage, but it took me years of learning during my 20s. When I was a young man, I struggled with some pretty bitter feelings myself, and I feel like society didn't make it easy to overcome them. Even today, the not so ambiguous message that society sends to young men is: if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault, because you are not enough. It just adds insult to injury, particularly when you're really missing closeness and understanding, when you feel alone and wounded. IMO, the modern discourse around gender only really goes one way. We hear about women's issues everyday, but even in 2021, it's no more okay for men to talk about the challenges they face than it was in the 1950s. Men are told to just suck it up, and that's a huge part of the problem. If feminism is really about gender equality, then it needs to allow some room for men to talk about their issues and concerns as well, without fear of judgment. I would also like to see words other than "toxic" being used to describe masculinity.

benlivengood 6y ago
At least in the bay area there are plenty of cuddle parties for platonic physical touch. Feminism has a pretty convincing answer to the problem like I edited my original comment to include. Toxic masculinity is the social exclusion of deep emotional relationships between men, including the "suck it up" culture. The key is that only men can really participate in that healing because it's entirely a problem between men. Women, as I've observed, seek out deep emotional friendships with other women and have most of their emotional needs met that way. Men, for the most part, do not do that with other men.
- 6y ago

74d-fe6-2c6 6y ago

So are sugar, TV and status symbols.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]