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I went through this not that many years ago buying a ring for my SO. My biggest mistake was including her in the decision. She described what she wanted exactl

• jliptzin 6y ago
  I sincerely wish you good luck in your marriage, you’re going to need it.
  • fisherjeff 6y ago
    That seems a little harsh? Even people in the best marriages sometimes have emotional, irrational disagreements
    • mixmastamyk 6y ago
      This is a particular telling one, however.
  • akarma 6y ago
    Many women won't directly tell their partner "I want you to spend a couple months' salary on a beautiful diamond" because it's tasteless to request and it removes all the meaning behind the man doing so, but they'd also be disappointed if the man didn't do so unprompted. People and their emotions are complex like that. I don't think there's any glaring issue with either party above, but it's like you expect all women in your life to be like many people on HN — hyper-rational, utilitarian devs who would never want a mined diamond because a cheaper artificial one with better clarity exists. It's not wrong, but it's not right - there is no right answer here. Traditional ideas of romance are a powerful force.
    • saberdancer 6y ago
      It's like typical "I don't need anything for my birthday". Even the most rational people tend to get disappointed if they really get nothing.
      • willcipriano 6y ago
        I don't get disappointed. The best gift you can get me for my birthday is remove the obligation for me to get you one on yours. Saves so much mental energy and time.
        • jokethrowaway 6y ago
          Same, even though I've been bit by it. After rationally agreeing not to get anything (because we were about to move overseas on a couple of luggages and didn't want extra stuff) my SO got me 3 (3!! usually it was one per event) gifts and I was empty handed. And I had to resell / returns some of the items as we were moving anyway and we could just buy better quality stuff later on, without having to pay for the move.
        • 64StarFox64 6y ago
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_(essay) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_(essay)
• NikolaeVarius 6y ago
  Its amazing how much society can make people believe such stupid illogical things
  • amiga 6y ago
    Where do you draw the line between marketing vs flat out lies? There's a conflict of interest between consumer and sales person. I just tire of the subterfuge.
• intergalplan 6y ago
  Now try a "used" diamond. shudders
  • slovette 6y ago
    Haha. Could you imagine the horror of a USED DIAMOND! It reminds me of the scene in Lord of War about the atrocity of a “used gun”.
  • dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Now try a "used" diamond. The right “used” diamonds are often received better than fresh natural diamonds by recipients. But that depends a lot on the “origin story”.
• amalcon 6y ago
  I brought my now-spouse along for ring shopping, on her own theory that she'd be wearing the thing and should therefore have some input. She was actually more opposed to mined diamonds than I was at the time. We talked about this extensively, and considered both lab gems and corundum gems (ruby/sapphire). We went through over a dozen jewelry stores, each of them pushing mined diamonds so hard that it angered us. The eventual solution wasn't even that we found an amenable jewelry store. We ended up obtaining a ring via a private transfer from a family member. While the ring contains a mined diamond, it has quite a bit of sentimental value and didn't really put price pressure on the public market. It was a good solution for us, but obviously not scalable!
  • inetsee 6y ago
    I was fortunate in this regard. My wife inherited her mother's wedding ring. When it came time for us to get married, we took that ring to a jeweler who mounted the diamond in a setting that my wife picked out. The ring has great sentimental value for my wife at a modest cost. We never had to have the conversation about a mined diamond vs a synthetic diamond.
  • throwaway_isms 6y ago
    >While the ring contains a mined diamond, it has quite a bit of sentimental value If I said it once, I have said it a million times, if your SO insists on a diamond from the ground as opposed to a lab, say fine, but I am getting my shots flying to Africa and will mine it myself. It won't matter if you bring back a opaque brown rock, with 0 marketing your SO would wear it with pride and most others would be jealous when they hear the story behind it. It goes hand in hand with your obtaining a stone from family and the sentiment of it. My Mom has 5 boys and my Dad gave her a ring with 5 diamonds, and she has made 1 available to each of us for an engagement ring, which she would replace with the birthstone of each son. As you say its not scalable, and no one ever marketed the idea, but the sentiment is extremely powerful.
    • make3 6y ago
      for most people what you describe is even more expensive and impractical than buying a mined diamond
• graycat 6y ago
  IMHO that she is looking really hard for allegories, symbols, representations, of your love is a really good sign for a successful marriage, one that will hopefully really, without doubt or question, last "for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, forsaking all others, 'tell death do you part". So when the two of you get old and wrinkled, not see or hear so well, have joint pains, the children have moved away and you don't see the grandchildren often enough, you will still have your love for each other that you celebrate with the diamond, the accomplishments of your lifetime together, the stability of your marriage, your home, big times at Thanksgiving, the Holidays, your wedding anniversary, your birthdays, the birthdays of the kids and their graduations, accomplishments, marriages, births and children, the friends you have made all along, the memories in your home, etc. Again, IMHO, one of the biggest problems in life is solving the problem of being alone, and for nearly everyone the best solution is a really good marriage. Here is a secret scorecard: You give knowledge of yourselves to each other, that is, keep your spouse well informed on your thoughts and feelings. You really care about each other. You respect and respond to each other. Neither of you tries to manipulate, fool, or exploit your spouse. You can trust each other. IMHO, it is good to do well on this scorecard.
  • EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
    You generalize and project your own life preferences on others. Please don't tell what is best for me. There is no problem to solve whatever.
• dec0dedab0de 6y ago
  I would have immediately ended it right there, but that's probably why I'm single. Every time I was in a relationship long enough to discuss marriage, I made it clear that there is no way I would ever buy a diamond. Only one was actively on board with it, because she liked the idea of picking out an alternative gem.
  • danbruc 6y ago
    Take the money and have a nice honeymoon, buy two $5 seashell necklace at the beach. There are so many ways to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars that are way better than investing them into small chunks of metal.
    • dec0dedab0de 6y ago
      Take the money and have a nice honeymoon, buy two $5 seashell necklace at the beach. There are so many ways to spend hundreds or thousands of dollars that are way better than investing them into small chunks of metal. Agreed, but I was OK with spending the money, what really bothers me is how worthless diamonds are. Metals have a relatively free market, many uses, and are fungible, so the pricing is more in line with reality.
      • mNovak 6y ago
        The gold in a typical engagement ring is worth something like $50-100. Not sure what you spent, but the same people peddling mined diamonds are also massively up-charging on the band.
        • dec0dedab0de 6y ago
          I have no problem paying for craftsmanship, artistry, and service. The piece should be worth significantly more than it's raw materials. My problem is when the price of the raw material is being artificially controlled. While I'm sure there are shenanigans going on with all valuable materials, I can't think of any that are as blatantly a scam as diamonds.
• danbruc 6y ago
  Apparently a lab grown diamond meant my love for her was also artificial [...] Why then a ring [with a diamond] at all? It's nothing special at all, just what everyone does. Almost the definition of replaceability and arbitrariness. There is no connection between the relationship and a random ring with a stone you buy at some random jewelry store. Why not something individual, specific to the relationship? Every $1 toy ring used as a wedding ring is more personal and telling than any thousands of dollars ring with a diamond.
  • dkarras 6y ago
    It is not a rational argument, result of some cultural indoctrination. Media, friends, peers... Everyone is susceptible to such influence to some degree but not aware. Still, must be sad to witness.
    • Scheherazade 6y ago
      Yes, seeing an otherwise healthy, and free-thinking human being turn through their behaviour into almost a sub-sentient machine running pre-programmed scripts, would errode a bit of the soul in almost everyone. As some of their childhood naivete is forever extinguished. At least now they’ve gained through this experience a deeper perception of the true nature of reality.
      • deleted 6y ago
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• Frost1x 6y ago
  >I don't know what kind of spell the diamond people cast on otherwise reasonable women to make them able to reduce the totality of a life and experiences shared together into a single crystalline bet, but they need to package it and sell it to the military. The militaries of the world invented it, it's business that bought it. Much of this diamond/marriage symbolism stems back to the late 1940s post WWII with DaBeer's engagement ring ad campaigns. WWII involved a lot of R&D in psyops and effects of propoganda. Sure, these strategies always existed but it became part of scientific research, was refined and weaponized to manipulate perceptions of people using non-kinetic approaches to try and avoid or minimize kinetic warfare. After the war in the mid 40s ended, where do you think all that expertise in propoganda from military went? Business marketing and advertising sprouted from much of this expertise. Marketing and advertising always existed before then but there was a dramatic shift in how things were sold creating armies of refined snake oil salesmen. In the late 40s, DaBeers ran a massive ad campaign employing such propoganda that shifted culture into associating diamond rings with marriage. There had been dowries and other exchanges of wealth and power in marriages before (it's often been a basis for marriage) that but DaBeers managed to shift that in culture in the west to the diamond ring. It's now so deeply ingrained in culture and people's perceptions that it can make otherwise rational people irrational. Do not ever underestimate the power of propoganda in its various forms. Pyschogical manipulation runs rampant in business marketing and these are the effects. We've culturally accepted it for a variety of reasons. I question if we should continue to accept these practices in business.
  • deleted 6y ago
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  • nickik 6y ago
    This is partly a myth. More important was the non legal enforcement of engagements. Many couples in the past would start to have sex when engaged. If the engagement is not legally secure, the diamond basically serves as signal. That why 3-month salary make sense. If I buy a 3-month salary worth diamond I'm probably not gone leave you after a month. Its an easily portable high value item that also serves as signaling for the person wearing it. It makes more sense then livestock in the modern world. Marketing had something to do with it, but its more complex then that.
• rhacker 6y ago
  Married about 12 years (together 16). I bought my then future-wife a ring for $200. She didn't care it was small or that it was a tiny fraction of my salary - we both wore our rings for everyone else for a year or so... My personal do-over would be to have purchased an even cheaper ring (or none at all) so we could buy more useful things, and she would agree. In any case, the spell doesn't work on everyone.
• symlinkk 6y ago
  I don’t see what’s so hard to understand. The entire point of buying a ring is that you’re showing her how much you care by spending a bunch of money on something special. Instead, you decided to save money and get something that’s not as special, and that hurt her feelings.
  • NikolaeVarius 6y ago
    The point is that its fucking stupid and a corporate mind game that is trivial to see through.
    • kbelder 6y ago
      So, tell her that. You didn't need to be in a relationship anyway.
      • NikolaeVarius 6y ago
        Yep, exactly what I did
      • mNovak 6y ago
        Just chiming in to say that you can in fact be up front with your SO about your opinions on pretty rocks as a symbol of your relationship, and continue to have a happy, healthy relationship.
  • meshenna 6y ago
    > showing her how much you care by spending a bunch of money on something special If this is what the other person expects out of a relationship it's time to jump ship ASAP.
  • robrtsql 6y ago
    You conveniently left out the part where they discussed it and she said that it didn't need to be 'natural'. There's nothing wrong with wanting a 'natural' diamond. But to mislead your partner as part of some sick test, and then make them feel like dirt for not having passed?
• EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 6y ago
  Look at it as a proof of work. What matters is you burned a certain chunk of your life for her.
  • chaostheory 6y ago
    This is the best and most succinct explanation.
  • lupire 6y ago
    But why wouldn't she want a larger fancier diamond for the same work?
    • AareyBaba 6y ago
      Because it has to be mined.
      • PicassoCTs 6y ago
        Its crypto, but with carbon..
        • cultofmetatron 6y ago
          and most electricity going into mining crypto comes fron coal
    • shard 6y ago
      From a status signaling point of view, it's the difference between a real van Gogh and a reproduction from Dafen Village.
  • Dylan16807 6y ago
    That makes it worse.
    • xeromal 6y ago
      Not really. If that's what that person values and you want that person, that's what you're gonna have to do. Being a relationship means doing things you don't agree with sometimes.
• MadSudaca 6y ago
  Your mistake was not knowing enough about evolutionary biology. I suggest you read about Signaling Theory.
• shuntress 6y ago
  Depending on how long ago this happened, you may either already know this or have since worked through it but this was probably not really just about the ring. I think the comments attacking your partner may be assuming that this "uncharacteristic tears and shouting" was some sort of irrational hysteria rather than the boiling-over of simmering problems. Maybe I'm the one reading too far into it though.
  • RobertKerans 6y ago
    Nah, I don't think so. + it's not an irrational reaction, can't logic out of it.
• RobertKerans 6y ago
  Well, if you ever want an example of advertising working... (I realise it plays enormously on preexisting traditional cultural notions of value, but still, as mentioned, de Beers did quite the job). I had similar conversations pre-engagement, but felt forced into a real diamond once the time actually came.
  • jbay808 6y ago
    "Real diamond" as opposed to zirconia, or did you mean natural diamond (as opposed to a real artificial diamond)?
    • RobertKerans 6y ago
      Natural, as in what would commonly be referred to as a real diamond (yes, I realise they're they're chemically and structurally the same). Edit: As I said in another reply, there's nothing illogical about it. If value is placed culturally and socially on natural diamonds, then they are valuable, regardless of if that value is "artificially" created via advertising of whatever. Lots of stuff is quite stupid if you look at it objectively, out of context. Doesn't mean it isn't true in context.
      • deleted 6y ago
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      • Judgmentality 6y ago
        I truly mean this to be thoughtful and not antagonistic, and your notion of value being subjective is accurate. But I think I can somewhat snarkily summarize a lot of the doubt some HNers are feeling (I'm not saying I agree or disagree): it's basically saying diamonds are like NFTs. EDIT: Just did a ctrl-f for NFT and I guess I wasn't the first to say that, although those comments are much lower on the page.
        • RobertKerans 6y ago
          Oh, sure, not to going to disagree! I don't think it's being sarky to compare the two (although NFTs have slightly different cultural precursors), no offence taken. I also think that in this case many commenters [being human] have equally subjective notions of value (edit: which are also correct in context, I'm not just having a pop) but would just like to pretend that they do not, that they are being "rational".
• hnfong 6y ago
  When looking for a mate, animals often engage in so called "irrational" behavior to signal to the other party of their readiness and seriousness for mating. This is how, for example, peacocks get their ridiculous plumage. And thus, when somebody "irrationally" buys a "worthless" ring for a hefty amount, it signals to some extent that one is serious, committed and financially capable of the proposed marriage. It's often not that the partner wants the expensive thing, but more that they want a proof that the marriage is worth more than that expensive and useless thing, which they want precisely because it's useless objectively and the purchase is "irrational". It's basically a trolley problem of "do I value my partner more, or my hard earned $XXXX more?" The forced irrational choice makes the game rational on a meta level. I don't disagree that the game kind of sucks, and there are other ways to build trust and understanding regarding the level of commitment between partners, but I consider the ring thing to be the "easy" way to do it. (which is why it's de-facto standard in many cultures) I think the hatred against capitalism and marketing is slightly off the mark here, since capitalism is merely supplying these expensive things to satisfy the somewhat "biological" demand in our mating rituals. Capitalists might be unscrupulous, but somebody had to do it. (Disclaimer in case it matters - I'm male, happily married to my wife, and bought a non-diamond ring as an engagement ring. I don't think this necessarily applies to any gender in any specific case, but generally speaking so far as humans are animals, the biological aspect dominates)
  • chaostheory 6y ago
    If we’re talking about the animal kingdom POV, then an expensive diamond is physical proof of the male’s resourcefulness and ability to provide for young. I would argue that if the diamond was displaced as this proof then it would shift to another physical object that’s publicly displayed such as a house or car.
  • Aunche 6y ago
    I agree, but at the same time, we're much more intelligent than penguins, so it's a shame that we also signal commitment with a fancy rock. Something like a work of art or rare book would serve the same purpose but would have more personal meaning.
  • bobthechef 6y ago
• astura 6y ago
  >When I showed her what I'd picked out, it quickly devolved into a lot of uncharacteristic tears and shouting. It took a few more tries, and then she explained. Apparently a lab grown diamond meant my love for her was also artificial, a budgeted ersatz stand-in for the real thing I'm wondering how, if you picked it out, she even knew the diamond was lab grown? Did she start grilling you immediately? Or did she get the microscope out? Maybe I'm a total moron but I can't tell the difference by just looking at it.
  • washadjeffmad 6y ago
    Funny you noticed. (Natural) diamonds have certificates of authenticity, ostensibly for appraisal and insurance. When I told her I could print one up with the specs is when the arguments started.
• Consultant32452 6y ago
  I avoided this by discussing the size of the diamonds in dead slaves rather than carets. Once I realized it didn't bother her to consider the dead slaves, I knew the "natural" diamond was what she wanted, so that's what she got. She may have genuinely believed it when she said the size of the stones didn't matter, but you can't deny how good she felt when other women fawned over it and were jealous that her stones were bigger/shinier. It's all about status signaling. The whole concept of the ring is a literal status symbol, signaling you're off the market. We can get upset about this particular status signal all we want, but it's not as if it's any less moral than any other status signal we participate in. That new phone was made by slaves. The car was built by raw materials mined in awful ways, possibly with slave labor. We can't go down this rabbit hole with everything in our life. I recommend making small nudges when we can in our own lives, but try not to get too worked up over any of them, it's not good for your mental health.
• bevesce- 6y ago
  Is this an American thing? I'm polish and this whole discussion is just mind boggling. I don't know anybody who would had such high (monetary wise) demands
  • AareyBaba 6y ago
    Yes it is American. Getting down on your knees to propose, the engagement ring, the bachelor/ette party, the white wedding dress, the bridesmaids in matching outfits and flowers, the handwritten invitation cards, the tiered wedding cake, the wedding photographer, the reception dinner. It's the cultural script that little girls and boys learn to follow. .
  • r-bar 6y ago
    I believe it is more of an English speaking world thing. The tropes of the white wedding come from people emulating English nobility. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wedding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_wedding
  • bobthechef 6y ago
    Yep, to a large degree, at least. American thinking is thoroughly colonized by powerful corporations. In the absence of a real culture, you are left with consumerist zombies. So when Washington comes knocking at your door to "liberate you" and "spread freedom", just know that this is a large part of what they mean.
  • icoder 6y ago
    It seems it is, I'm Dutch and also don't recognise this at all (but not married yet, so who knows). It does remind me, again, how many HN and Reddit discussions so often are by default seem US-centric, until stated otherwise. I am very much willing to accept though that the fact that this annoys me a bit is my own problem.
    • randomswede 6y ago
      In Sweden, it is more customary (at least for mixed-gender couples) to buy matching gold bands for the engagement, then a fancy wedding band for the female spouse (and optionally another plain gold band for the male). They typically have the names and dates of the engagement/wedding engraved on the inside, as well. Both times I got engaged (only got married once, though), I brought my partner to the jewellery store to pick out rings we both liked, as it would be something we'd be wearing for a non-determined time and I'd say that being happy with that trumps the whole "propose with a ring out of nowhere in public".
• deleted 6y ago
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• akomtu 6y ago
  The spell is called herd mentality. People don't like to be losers, so women wear shiny stones and men drive cool cars. Both want to send the message "I'm not a loser". Appeal to science has no bearing on the herd opinion. Your gf was basically terrified that her friends would laugh at her lab grown diamond and her weak scientific arguments won't raise her ingroup status. Edit: I'd add a snarky observation that a diamond is essentially a notarized letter of "love" where the shop gets paid as the notary and your gf gets the proof of your deposit. The stone itself isn't worth much.
• Taylor_OD 6y ago
  > My biggest mistake was including her in the decision. > When I showed her what I'd picked out, it quickly devolved into a lot of uncharacteristic tears and shouting. I do not think you would have had a better experience if you did not include her.
• AtlasBarfed 6y ago
  It's from birth at this point. Generational indoctrination.
• treeman79 6y ago
  Spouse was the same way. There is a right answer. She absolutely will not tell it to you. If you guess wrong that means you don’t love her.
• pyuser583 6y ago
  There’s something about the fact that the stone on the ring spent millions of years being made and lying in the ground before being found.
• tekknik 6y ago
  > I don't know what kind of spell the diamond people cast on otherwise reasonable women to make them able to reduce the totality of a life and experiences shared together into a single crystalline bet, but they need to package it and sell it to the military. If we can grow a perfect diamond, of seemingly any size, then finding a large, clear natural diamond is more special than buying a manufactured diamond. Then there’s the time involved, The natural process taking much more time. It’s hard for me to see why people think they are equivalent. Approaching an emotional subject with a logical mind won’t work. Yes they are the same but really they’re not.