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Random diamond story! As a freshman in college, I took a geology class and our teacher asked all of the women in our class to raise their hand if they would rat

Random diamond story! As a freshman in college, I took a geology class and our teacher asked all of the women in our class to raise their hand if they would rather have natural or human-made diamonds. Most of the women (over 80%) raised their hands for natural. The reasons they gave all seemed to tie back to branding and natural diamonds being “real.” Then our teacher gave another analogy. He asked if people would rather have natural ice or human-made ice in their water. He broke down that the human-made ice could be frozen in a freezer to a custom size/shape, be a lot cleaner, consistent in how you make it, and chemically no different than H20 than naturally occurring frozen water. As you looked around the lecture hall, you started to see people’s brains unlock. He went on to explain cost efficiencies, ethics, challenges with conflict diamonds, and how you could make a perfect diamond at a fraction of the coast. After a 30 minute lecture, he asked the question again. Surprisingly, the majority of the women still wanted natural diamonds although the number was less than the original amount that raised their hand. That was the point where I realized the strength of diamonds product branding.

grw_ 5y ago
The economics behind diamonds are better explained by an sociologist, not a geologist- the high cost and useless-ness of the gift are a feature not a bug! The burning of significant amount of wealth is a costly signal of commitment to the receiver. I heard from a friend who worked at a diamond company (and as such could purchase stones with significant discount to market price) that his fiancée had specifically rejected the idea of receiving a stone from his company on the grounds that it being 'discounted' devalued the gesture.
- rjsw 5y ago
  Even if she could get a larger stone for the expected amount that the guy should spend ?
  - grw_ 5y ago
    yes, I should have mentioned it was explicitly put to her in those terms
- gruez 5y ago
  >the high cost and useless-ness of the gift are a feature not a bug! The burning of significant amount of wealth is a costly signal of commitment to the receiver. So basically... proof of work?
  - 988747 5y ago
    More like "sunk cost fallacy".
    - savanaly 5y ago
      No, they're really different. Just because the sunk cost fallacy has something to do with spending money doesn't mean it applies whenever money is spent in an unwise way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost
      - 988747 5y ago
        But buying a wedding ring is not only about showing off, it is an old method of psychological trickery that is supposed to make relationships and marriage more durable. It used to be "sunk cost" for a man, since until recently it was expected that if you break the engagement your ex-fiance would keep the ring (right now in most of the states law require it to be returned). Expensive wedding party is another sunk cost.
        mNovak 5y ago
        >> right now in most of the states law require it to be returned Is this true? That would be very surprising, as it is essentially a gift, or at the very least, joint property subject to divorce adjudication like anything else.
  - xeromal 5y ago
    I love this
- jogjayr 5y ago
  > The burning of significant amount of wealth is a costly signal of commitment to the receiver. So why not buy something practical and expensive? Like a house or a car?
  - grw_ 5y ago
    For houses it's completely plausible that the motivation is for the asset to appreciate in value and even if the marriage ends in divorce, both parties end up being able to extract some value from it. For a retail diamond the purchaser is likely to see zero value recovered from it whether divorce happens or not. For cars, I suppose my hypothesis would say cars likely to depreciate very quickly (such as high-end SUV) are more suitable as engagement gifts than practical (prius or such), which fits roughly with my observations in real world
  - astura 5y ago
    Because houses and cars are useful, the GP pointed out that being uselessness is the entire point >the high cost and useless-ness of the gift are a feature not a bug The other thing is the marketing says diamonds are "forever," presumably like your love, but houses and cars require expensive maintenance and are easily damaged. Not good if you're buying something symbolic. Not that I personally agree, far from it, we didn't make any jewelery purchases when we got married.
    - jogjayr 5y ago
      > The other thing is the marketing says diamonds are "forever," presumably like your love, but houses and cars require expensive maintenance and are easily damaged. Not good if you're buying something symbolic. Definitely some symbolism there. Relationships (romantic and otherwise) are indeed more like houses and cars - innately valuable, easily damaged, and requiring regular maintenance - than diamonds.
      - astura 5y ago
        Right, I agree (and that's why I'm not "into" diamonds/useless trinkets) - but that's a realistic take, not the sort of thing people who are buying/receiving diamonds want.
ddorian43 5y ago
Thats the point you should've realised that people aren't most of the time rational but emotional.
aliyfarah 5y ago
Thanks for the story, that was a very good analogy by your prof.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > that was a very good analogy by your prof. Sounds like it wasn't because it didn't convince many people!
  - myfavoritedog 5y ago
    Because people are rational and can be convinced to abandon notions of value deeply ingrained since childhood because of a nice analogy during a single lecture?
    - chrisseaton 5y ago
      If an analogy doesn't help you look at a situation any differently... is it a good analogy?
      - aliyfarah 5y ago
        To each their own...it helped me look at lab diamonds differently. I've always assumed they were somehow chemically inferior to the real ones, maybe compromised tensile strength or something.
      - filleduchaos 5y ago
        By this logic there are no good analogies because there will always be someone that will refuse to look at the situation differently for whatever reason.
qw 5y ago
It's mostly about the emotional attachment. If you find two identical pens, and one of them was used by a famous writer, you would expect a price difference. There is no difference in the quality of those pens. They both work the same, and using the writer's pen will not make you a better writer by itself. I personally would not buy a natural diamond because of the ethical issues, but I do understand the students who feel there is a difference.
- Nursie 5y ago
  That's a good point, the difference doesn't have to be in the item itself, BUT - Does anyone, other than geologists of course, really care about the back-story of the diamond, how it was created and how it was mined? Or are they just hanging on to an idea that some of them are "real" and some "not real" for the purposes of social signalling? If the latter, I would consider this much more changeable over time.
  - coddle-hark 5y ago
    > Does anyone, other than geologists of course, really care about the back-story of the diamond, how it was created and how it was mined? Yes, very much so, as is the case with all lifestyle products. People want to believe that they’re buying something special.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      Really? I've never met anyone that talked about it at all. Maybe I don't have conversations about diamonds very often, but people only ever seemed concerned that they were 'real', and latterly that they were conflict-free. > People want to believe that they’re buying something special. What if it turns out they're not?
      - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
        Jewelers provide certifications when buying diamonds. They'd be a) on the hook if they sold counterfeit products, and b) they wouldn't be able to sell anymore because of a tarnished brand.
me_me_me 5y ago
Or that some people are small minded without insight of how their decision shape the world around them. Be it diamonds, sports cars, etc doesnt matter.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  They were just given the insight, so that's not it. It's more that they don't care.
xenocratus 5y ago
I think the question might be a bit misleading. "Would you rather have X?" isn't the same as "Would you rather your spouse buys you X?". I'd prefer having a natural diamond too, for the same reason I'd prefer having a piece of ember with an insect that was trapped there naturally millions of years ago as opposed to a man-made one that was produced last month. By no means would I buy a natural diamond or support the mining system behind it, but there's no denying that I'd find it more interesting and somehow awe-inspiring.
- heliodor 5y ago
  The current narrative is more along the lines of, "How much work should your fiancee spend on declaring his commitment to you?" The societal answer is at least two months. Salary is the convenient measure for this. The ring is the communication medium.
  - rndgermandude 5y ago
    >The societal answer is at least two months. Might be an American thing? My parents spent about 1 month worth of my dad's salary on two wedding rings a long time ago. My dad actually wanted to buy a far more expensive ring for my mom, but she insisted to keep it simple and "cheap" and "unproblematic" to wear. Same story in the rest of the family. Friends (usually a lot younger than my parents) spend even less on rings, I'd estimate 400-600 EUR per ring from what I keep hearing. I've heard about that two months rule before, in American TV shows and movies, never thought about it. Now I wonder if it's really an American thing, or if people around me are just cheapskates :P
    - dboreham 5y ago
      It's an American rich person thing.
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago
        It's the opposite in my opinion. The richer the social circle, the less people care about stuff like diamonds or 2 months salary (which I never even heard of outside of online discussions). A diamond ring is barely a notable expense for a dual six figure earning couple.
deleted 5y ago
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tiborsaas 5y ago
> at a fraction of the cost That might also be the reason. If something is cheaper, it feels inferior. Also with diamonds it's probably a factor that the fiancé is expected to present serious intents with a deeper monetary investment. "Look honey, it's an ethical, clean diamond and only cost 1/20th of a dirty one" sad, but feels wrong. Edit: I also remember a guy at dinner party bragging about buying a 5000EUR ring, it goes both ways.
- mrighele 5y ago
  > Also with diamonds it's probably a factor that the fiancé is expected to present serious intents with a deeper monetary investment. "Look honey, it's an ethical, clean diamond and only cost 1/20th of a dirty one" sad, but feels wrong. Then he can spend the same money for a bigger diamond ? That would give also more bragging rights to the future wife (nobody will come and ask if it is a natural or artificial one).
- jankassens 5y ago
  Maybe the key would be to keep the artificial diamond ring at a similar price point. Larger, designer brand, more manual labor details, I don’t know. Not saving money, but get a superior product.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > A Veblen good is a type of luxury good for which the demand for a good increases as the price increases, in apparent contradiction of the law of demand, resulting in an upward-sloping demand curve. The higher prices of Veblen goods may make them desirable as a status symbol in the practices of conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure. A product may be a Veblen good because it is a positional good, something few others can own. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good Also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good
- anoncake 5y ago
  Buy 20 then. I wonder if there's a way to tastefully put them all on a single ring.
veltas 5y ago
Diamonds are precious partly because they're rare. If you find a way of 'making' a diamond it loses some of that value. It's interesting to me that someone would even try making a comparison between a precious stone and something like water/ice which is mostly desired for utility and not any sentimental reason.
- JCM9 5y ago
  They’re actually not all that rare. Big Hope Diamond stones yes, but your run of the mill variety that 99.9% of people have are not all that rare. The “rarity” comes mostly from the the tight grip a small number of companies have over mining and production of raw stones. You can make tap water “rare” if you run the waterworks.
  - caf 5y ago
    It also comes from selling them as "this is a sentimental item that you should keep forever" and "these are bought as meaningful gifts so it would be gauche to buy one second hand" to limit the size of the secondary market.
- AlanSE 5y ago
  But the rarity leads to intensive mining and human rights abuses. There's a good kind of rare (like say, an original painting, bought from the artist) and a bad kind of rare. Sentiments can change. Diamonds will not become unemotional, but the emotional reaction will likely go into reverse soon.
- caf 5y ago
  The "rarity" is mostly marketing too.
- ErrantX 5y ago
  Your comment proves the point on marketing; diamonds are not actually that rare, a lot of the scarcity is marketing plus control of supply by De Beers & others. In fact, Diamonds are some of the most common gems in nature! https://www.gemsociety.org/article/are-diamonds-really-rare/ https://www.gemsociety.org/article/are-diamonds-really-rare/
tom_mellior 5y ago
> our teacher asked all of the women Sounds like a pretty sexist thing to do. The same question can be asked without putting women on the spot. "If you were to buy a diamond, what would you rather choose?"
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  My initial instinct agreed with you,but I then wondered if there would actually be a relevant gender difference in answers. In western culture, still today I think,majority of men would be buying and majority of women would be receiving diamonds. It would be interesting if this affects answers. Would a buyer go for more practical cheaper option while receiver goes for more expensive traditional options? Or a different split completely , or none? I think it'd be a fascinating exercise.
  - vulpesx2 5y ago
    Same reaction. I've anecdotally asked this same question: "man-made or natural diamonds?" to my friends in the past – mostly because I can't get past the ethical concerns, but wanted to understand the other side. I found majority of my men friends argued it's the same diamond without the ethical concerns if you go man-made, while majority of my women friends chose natural (reasons included social pressure, the story, and so on). Anecdotes aren't proof. But perhaps there is something to looking at this from a gendered (proxy for giving vs. receiving?) lens.
    - frockington1 5y ago
      As a male giving a ring, I bought a real one. Logic was that it was cheaper and better quality once you get over ~1-1.25 carats. If lab made wants to compete more meaningfully they'll need to get better at the engagement ring size diamonds which I'm sure they will with time
      - aquadrop 5y ago
        They are both real.
coward76 5y ago
Would you rather buy a Banksy NFT Or JPG of a Banksy they are the same image at a fraction of the cost?
- myfavoritedog 5y ago
  You can turn around and resell a Banksy for something comparable to what you just paid. Try doing that with a diamond. You walk out of the diamond showroom with it, and its resale value plummets to the value of the base metals, the work of the setting, plus a small fraction for what you had just paid for the diamond.
  - zaroth 5y ago
    A certified laser etched diamond is a mass produced item that is pretty easy to authenticate. The brand name store selling it to you is invisible once it’s on your hand. There’s no such thing as a “used” diamond. So the diamond is worth whatever it can be bought / sold for online. If walking out of the store drops it’s value, you’re donating to the store. Buy an exactly equivalent stone elsewhere if the price drops too much after you buy it.
    - Loughla 5y ago
      I think the issue is that there is no really trustworthy place to go for used diamonds to ensure you're not buying a cheap knock-off or lower grade gem. Most people don't understand cut, clarity, and whatever else are the other ones. Pawn shops are amazing places to buy SUPER cheap jewelry, especially diamonds. The issue is that, unless you definitely know what you're doing, it's super easy to get taken advantage of. I wish there was a trustworthy clearinghouse/reseller for used jewelry and gemstones. That would be fantastic.
- onion2k 5y ago
  The NFT is a pointer to the image, not the image itself. Owning a copy of the JPG is actually closer to owning the art.
- rndgermandude 5y ago
petre 5y ago
> The reasons they gave all seemed to tie back to branding and natural diamonds being “real.” Forced child labour used to extract natural diamonds in some parts of the world is also real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_the_diamond_industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_the_diamond_in...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
raverbashing 5y ago
He should have explained about DeBeers. That would have brought the number of raised hands down. The ice analogy is a bit faulty because no one is eating their diamonds and the impurities are technically advantageous (though most people want the shiny "perfect" diamond which are much easier to come about artificially).
- slightwinder 5y ago
  Aren't the impurities which make them shiny? Or is this also just marketing?
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    No, impurities would make it not white. Pure diamonds are shiny the same way (shinier than glass).
Kalium 5y ago
I find it helps to remember that diamonds are a status symbol and a form of conspicuous consumption. People often want as much of that expensive, visible status and commitment signal as they can get. Part of the significance of the gesture is the level of painful expense involved. So making the item much cheaper also cheapens the gesture.
- notyourday 5y ago
  > Part of the significance of the gesture is the level of painful expense involved. So making the item much cheaper also cheapens the gesture. Call it what it is: diamonds are a down payment from a man to a woman for access to sex. The higher the price, the higher the value he assigns to it.
  - Kalium 5y ago
    Nope. Nope nope nope nope.
    - notyourday 5y ago
      In the alternative universe women who can't afford diamonds, buy diamonds for men. In the same alternative universe, the families of men look at the Cs of the ring and judge if "she is good enough for him". In the same alternative universe, men get together, pull out their diamond rings and discuss if those rings are worth the sacrifice. And in the same alternative universe the commercials on TV are "She went to Jared!" and "Give him the gift of Pandora" Alas, in our universe it does not happen.
      - Loughla 5y ago
        >In the same alternative universe, the families of men look at the Cs of the ring and judge if "she is good enough for him". In the same alternative universe, men get together, pull out their diamond rings and discuss if those rings are worth the sacrifice. You might need to take a break and take a walk away from media. Do you honestly think this is a thing for all women? Do you honestly believe life is like a television sitcom or romantic comedy?
Angostura 5y ago
NFTs suggest that there will never be an end to the appetite for making things 'special'.
evrydayhustling 5y ago
Diamond branding taps into a much more fundamental obsession with scarcity, which manufactured objects cannot provide. Scott Galloway explores this really well in a recent post comparing NFTs to long-standing art world practices: "Scarcity has always been a function of bits, not atoms." [1] I wonder if synthetic diamonds that were organized into specifically limited editions would hold more value... [1] https://www.profgalloway.com/scarcity-cred/ https://www.profgalloway.com/scarcity-cred/
- Nursie 5y ago
  Potentially synthetic diamonds could destroy the scarcity appeal of natural diamonds.
  - evrydayhustling 5y ago
    Right or wrong, Galloway's thesis would specifically reject that idea. Synthetic diamonds are equivalent (or superior!) on an atoms level. But on a bits level they lack the history of being formed in the Earth's crust, which stays scarce. Diamond marketing exploits that to good effect -- most diamonds are marked and registered in a database that traces its unique history. Doing so makes it possible to value the history as unique, and also leads by example in investing in the value of that history (they make a big deal out of the tech used to confirm authenticity). Since the final purpose of the diamond is to demonstrate stored value rather than produce it, the target buyer is focused on whether others recognize the value, not whether it is justified. On a personal level, I think the history of "real" diamonds is almost always horrific and a negative asset! I hope companies like Pandora can put marketing power into creating scarcity stories for synthetic diamonds.
    - an_opabinia 5y ago
      > most diamonds are marked and registered in a database that traces its unique history Most engineering projects around cultural products change (not necessarily improve) the "registered in a database" process. Whereas most value comes from creating / enriching a "unique history."
lettergram 5y ago
While I personally don’t think natural diamonds are any more valuable than synthetic. I understand the scarcity and way it’s used to show status (similar to cars, we don’t need great ones). That being said, what I actually took away from that comment... was that the teacher in geology class was presenting effectively political argument as opposed to teaching. Explaining the process of fine, but given what you described — I bet no one changed their mind about synthetic vs real. Most knew what the “correct” answer was. I think everyone kinda knows about synthetic diamonds, they just don’t care. Same way plastic bottles are better for the environment, yet are still used widely.
- Loughla 5y ago
  >I think everyone kinda knows about synthetic diamonds, they just don’t care. I 100% disagree. The stigma around cubic zirconia and 'fake' jewelry is real and alive, and absolutely carries over to any kind of man-made gems. I also don't think most people have any idea at all about the issues in the gem trade. Source: My highly educated co-workers who were astounded to read about conditions in emerald mines after Elon Musk got popular.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    what does elon musk have to do with emerald mines?
    - Loughla 5y ago
      There was the story about Elon Musk's family ties to apartheid and an emerald mine in like 2017-2018. That's where that comes from.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    Cubic zirconia (Mohs 8) is less hard than diamonds (Mohs 10) or Moissanite (Mohs 9.25). For something that gets a lot of wear, the CZ will get scratched up and have its edges rounded off more over time than diamonds or Moissanite. But, if its something that only gets occasional wear this is likely not going to be too much of an issue. Just don't go banging your stone on a pile of diamonds. CZ also has a lower refractive index and less dispersion than either diamonds or Moissanite.
jl2718 5y ago
“Do you want natural diamonds or man-made diamonds?” The correct answer is: no.
GrumpyNl 5y ago
Its all about marketing. Look close around you and look at the money spend on bottled water.
faeyanpiraat 5y ago
This might have been the wrong way to run this experiment. The fact that the participants publicly shared their opinion, and then they would also publicly had to signal that they were wrong could simply be such a big psychological factor, that the topic at hand did not matter. It would’ve been better to vote anonymously, or even better ask one class at the beginning and a different class at the end of the lecture, then share the statistics with both classes at the next lecture.
- chimeracoder 5y ago
  On the other hand (pun not intended) diamonds are primarily used this way in engagement/wedding rings, which is a social signifier, so asking this question in the context of social pressure is arguably a better estimate of how people would behave for a form of conspicuous consumption.
lelanthran 5y ago
You heard a different question to the one the women heard. You heard "Do you want this man-made item that is functionally identical to a naturally occurring item". The women heard "Do you want the jewelry that symbolises your love to be real or fake?" Functionally, there is almost no difference in an item containing a diamond and an identical one containing worthless rock. But, you know, jewelry derives almost all of its value from being expensive and rare. Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry.
- moistbar 5y ago
  > Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry. Costume jewelry is usually neither expensive nor rare, and yet it remains popular with certain demographics.
  - samatman 5y ago
    Sure but, please, let's show some context sensitivity. An engagement ring is emphatically not costume jewelry, and if you don't understand that "real jewelry" is an important sense the antonym of "costume jewelry", well, now you do.
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > > Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry. > > Costume jewelry is usually neither expensive nor rare, and yet it remains popular with certain demographics. Okay, let me clarify: Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry, it becomes costume jewelry.
  - kixiQu 5y ago
    "Fine jewelry" and "fashion jewelry" are the category names, typically.
gmadsen 5y ago
I has nothing to do with branding. It is entirely about price and false scarcity. traditionally it was an important gesture that the man was investing a large sum of money into his soon to be wife
- CivBase 5y ago
  I never understood the idea behind a wedding ring being an "investment". It's not like you plan on ever selling it. It's purely an expense. If you wont sell it, then a ring's value is only in its aesthetic and any sentiment attached to it by the wearer - neither of which seem to be strongly related to the initial purchasing price. Of course, people often sell their rings if they get divorced... but wouldn't that make actually an expensive ring an incentive to separate? The whole gesture makes very little sense.
  - gmadsen 5y ago
    The gesture, is that the man is willing to spend that much money, and because of that, is serious about the woman, sort of like a purchase. Its not an investment in the sense of producing or keeping value. Of course, times are very different now, and it is quite an antiquated idea.
    - CivBase 5y ago
      So like an escrow for a marriage proposal... except it's held by the person to which the offer is made and is never closed out if the offer is accepted. I still can't say I get it. Rings I get. They are a symbol of commitment, a sentimental memento, and just a nice accessory. But the idea that the cost to purchase the ring is somehow a reflection of that is still silly to me.
smabie 5y ago
everyone would prefer natural diamonds to artificial ones. Why? Because natural ones are more expensive. It's literally like asking someone whether they prefer to have $20 or $40.
- mNovak 5y ago
  If your partner offers to buy you a $5 McDonalds cheeseburger or a $50 McDonalds cheeseburger, which would you accept?
  - smabie 5y ago
    Assuming a somewhat efficient market, I'll take the $50 cheeseburger. Obviously I would want a more expensive thing than a less expensive thing from a partner. If we split up, I could sell the more expensive thing for... more.
CivBase 5y ago
Reminds me of when Jamie Oliver tried to convince kids that chicken nuggets were bad by showing them how nuggets are made. Even after showing disgust at the whole process, all of the kids still wanted to eat chicken nuggets at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKwL5G5HbGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKwL5G5HbGA I think it takes a lot more than logic to convince most people to change opinions - especially on matters of preference or taste.
washadjeffmad 5y ago
I went through this not that many years ago buying a ring for my SO. My biggest mistake was including her in the decision. She described what she wanted exactly– nothing gaudy or ostentatious, just a singular, tasteful stone on a plain band. Couldn't be simpler, could it? Finding stones that met her criteria was easy. Some were natural diamonds, some lab grown, many moissanite. From the outset, she said the meaning of the ring was what was most important and that she didn't want to pick it out herself (after effectively picking it out herself). We'd talked about moissanite a lot over the years, and she'd approved of the idea, and the same with lab grown diamonds. We're college educated adults with backgrounds in the sciences, so we weren't on uneven footing with comprehension. When I showed her what I'd picked out, it quickly devolved into a lot of uncharacteristic tears and shouting. It took a few more tries, and then she explained. Apparently a lab grown diamond meant my love for her was also artificial, a budgeted ersatz stand-in for the real thing, and me saying we could spend more on a larger stone or matching set further belied my ignorance. No, she wanted me to have picked out an allegory for our love: a "perfect" diamond. She then sent me the details of the stone she actually wanted. After a little "wait, where's this coming from and why did you let me spend weeks searching if there was only one right answer", I ended up spending twice our decided budget on a "natural" diamond with the same characteristics as the lab grown (except the diamond's clarity was lower, because lab grown clarity is always perfect), which wasn't any object, but now the ring is marred by the memories of arguments, and she doesn't really love it. Lesson learned. I don't know what kind of spell the diamond people cast on otherwise reasonable women to make them able to reduce the totality of a life and experiences shared together into a single crystalline bet, but they need to package it and sell it to the military.
- jliptzin 5y ago
  I sincerely wish you good luck in your marriage, you’re going to need it.
  - fisherjeff 5y ago
    That seems a little harsh? Even people in the best marriages sometimes have emotional, irrational disagreements
eplanit 5y ago
You could make the same analogy with CGI vs. human-drawn imagery. Yes, you can draw much more precisely, and generates millions of copies of that precision, etc. with CGI. But, does a CGI rendering really have the same 'value' as seeing something drawn entirely by hand? I guess some would say 'yes' -- and I'd direct them to the factory-made diamond counter. Others, though, would value the _human_ involvement (not to discount the programmers who wrote the CGI software) -- even if that includes people toiling in mines. It's not surprising that the 30 minute lecture didn't sway too many minds -- I think the professor didn't 'get it' in his/her own way. People aren't just buying collections of atoms (though they actually are).
the_local_host 5y ago
Equivalent is not as good when what matters is what other people think. Even if the person displaying a luxury artifact agrees that some other artifact is equivalent, if the people they're displaying it to don't also agree, then there is a difference that's relevant to the purpose of the artifact, which is to advertise your wealth. Though the topic at hand is diamonds, which are strongly associated with wedding proposals, this principle applies equally to sports cars, guitars, etc.
- literallycancer 5y ago
  You could just use an artificial stone and no one would know. If you just care about the signal, buy good replicas of things you could plausibly afford, how hard can it be.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_local_host 5y ago
    Not everyone is comfortable with the risk that the truth might eventually come out. What some intrepid manufacturer should do is create custom diamonds that are actually more expensive than natural diamonds, with some subtle structure that cannot be found in nature. That solves the problem of immoral sourcing, and better suits the purpose of displaying wealth.
oconnor663 5y ago
Diamonds are a prestige thing, like fancy watches. It doesn't make sense to lecture a fancy-watch-wearer about how cheap electric watches can actually tell time better. They know, and that's not the axis that matters to them.
lhorie 5y ago
> That was the point where I realized the strength of diamonds product branding. Here's another interesting twist that further shows how powerful branding and marketing really are: Spence Diamonds is a diamond retailer in Canada that advertises extremely aggressively via radio ads. A few years ago, it started a huge campaign for lab grown diamonds, portraying them with adjectives such as "artisan-made" (going as far as comparing them to Michelangelo art). And what do you know: > While still offering mined diamonds, Spence has found that when its customers are given a choice, 80% of them choose lab-growns over mined diamonds[0] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2019/05/12/spence-diamonds-is-a-traditional-jeweler-that-discovered-a-gold-mine-in-lab-grown-diamonds/?sh=127b0b902b37 https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2019/05/12/spence-d...
dec0dedab0de 5y ago
This is great, I want to go back a decade and relive an argument I had about this with a co-worker who was ring shopping for his now wife. I was trying to explain to him that diamonds are worthless, they have little resale value because they're not fungible, the rarity is being manipulated, and man made diamonds are indistinguishable without a special tool. His position was that he can't get his fiance a "fake diamond" and I said just because it's man made doesn't mean that it isn't real. We went back and forth a bit, and started to get heated, and eventually I said "If I make a sandwich it doesn't mean it's not a real sandwich!" which made our other co-workers laugh hysterically and repeat for years. Ice would have made the point much better than a sandwich, but I suspect I wouldn't remember the story.
pbuzbee 5y ago
The root of it, I think, is that mined diamonds are the standard for engagement rings. Culturally, having a mined diamond is (for many/most Americans) table stakes for what an engagement ring should be. Getting a lab grown diamond or an alternative stone for your girlfriend can feel like you chose saving money or your personal views on diamond ethics over getting her something that meets those table stakes. It doesn't matter if it's technically superior (I rarely hear people discuss the quality of their diamonds anyway, beyond weight occasionally). What does matter is that you chose to give her something different than the standard, and the ring will always feel like it has a little asterisk on it marking this.
judwaite 5y ago
Branding and artificial scarcity
gandalfian 5y ago
Didn't ice cubes made from icebergs command a premium price once? Don't know if it was deserved.
- rags2riches 5y ago
  My ice cubes are also made from icebergs. They just melted a long time ago!
caeril 5y ago
> I realized the strength of diamonds product branding No, that's not it. Diamonds are conspicuous status signaling. It's a very human, even animal drive. DeBeers gets a lot of hate, and much of it deservedly so, but they tapped into and exploited our nature - they didn't create it.
JoshTko 5y ago
The teacher was fighting another principle of consistency. where people want to be consistent with a previous decision. There probably would have been more hands raised for human made if the professor never did the first voting.
creamytaco 5y ago
That doesn't bode well for your marriage. I would ditch her now before it's too late .. later.
mariodiana 5y ago
A natural diamond is nature's NFT.
samatman 5y ago
As an alternative, let me share an observation. People don't often change their minds right away. Specifically, there is a huge amount of neural reconfiguration which happens when we sleep, which is why we "sleep on it". The interesting question, which is impossible to answer, is how those women felt about lab-grown diamonds by the time it was important. I'd guess that nearly all of them became more open to the idea, and that more changed their minds later than had revised their opinion immediately after the lecture.
conductr 5y ago
Random ice story! My mother in law buys “good ice” that is clear despite having a purified water source on her ice maker. She even has frozen bottled water and says it’s cloudy and tastes bad. I’ve explained to her numerous times that her clear ice is clear because they freeze it quickly. That’s it. It doesn’t taste better. She refuses to believe me and it’s basically a joke we tease her about now.
Balgair 5y ago
Aside: Go to gem and mineral shows for jewelry. They are very close to wholesale prices and as such can be up to 10x less expensive than a store, and cash purchases typically even less. Jewelry diamonds at such event aren't the main item that people are there for though. It's the truly rare items that you find. Things like non-standard colored sapphires, gargantuan amethysts, gem rhodochrosite, fossils of dubious pedigree, meteorites, fordite, etc. Working diamonds, ones that are perfectly made and the size of your palm, can be bought and then cut down for relatively cheap. Many research labs and universities get samples at these events in 'legal' deals. Especially near the end of the shows when vendors need to make a sale, things get pretty wild as the liquor comes out as well as the cash. Check your local listings, ads, and billboards. It's a great Saturday activity even for the nephews and nieces.

grw_ 5y ago

The economics behind diamonds are better explained by an sociologist, not a geologist- the high cost and useless-ness of the gift are a feature not a bug! The burning of significant amount of wealth is a costly signal of commitment to the receiver. I heard from a friend who worked at a diamond company (and as such could purchase stones with significant discount to market price) that his fiancée had specifically rejected the idea of receiving a stone from his company on the grounds that it being 'discounted' devalued the gesture.

rjsw 5y ago
Even if she could get a larger stone for the expected amount that the guy should spend ?
- grw_ 5y ago
  yes, I should have mentioned it was explicitly put to her in those terms
gruez 5y ago
>the high cost and useless-ness of the gift are a feature not a bug! The burning of significant amount of wealth is a costly signal of commitment to the receiver. So basically... proof of work?
- 988747 5y ago
  More like "sunk cost fallacy".
  - savanaly 5y ago
    No, they're really different. Just because the sunk cost fallacy has something to do with spending money doesn't mean it applies whenever money is spent in an unwise way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_(economics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost
    - 988747 5y ago
      But buying a wedding ring is not only about showing off, it is an old method of psychological trickery that is supposed to make relationships and marriage more durable. It used to be "sunk cost" for a man, since until recently it was expected that if you break the engagement your ex-fiance would keep the ring (right now in most of the states law require it to be returned). Expensive wedding party is another sunk cost.
      - mNovak 5y ago
        >> right now in most of the states law require it to be returned Is this true? That would be very surprising, as it is essentially a gift, or at the very least, joint property subject to divorce adjudication like anything else.
- xeromal 5y ago
  I love this
jogjayr 5y ago
> The burning of significant amount of wealth is a costly signal of commitment to the receiver. So why not buy something practical and expensive? Like a house or a car?
- grw_ 5y ago
  For houses it's completely plausible that the motivation is for the asset to appreciate in value and even if the marriage ends in divorce, both parties end up being able to extract some value from it. For a retail diamond the purchaser is likely to see zero value recovered from it whether divorce happens or not. For cars, I suppose my hypothesis would say cars likely to depreciate very quickly (such as high-end SUV) are more suitable as engagement gifts than practical (prius or such), which fits roughly with my observations in real world
- astura 5y ago
  Because houses and cars are useful, the GP pointed out that being uselessness is the entire point >the high cost and useless-ness of the gift are a feature not a bug The other thing is the marketing says diamonds are "forever," presumably like your love, but houses and cars require expensive maintenance and are easily damaged. Not good if you're buying something symbolic. Not that I personally agree, far from it, we didn't make any jewelery purchases when we got married.
  - jogjayr 5y ago
    > The other thing is the marketing says diamonds are "forever," presumably like your love, but houses and cars require expensive maintenance and are easily damaged. Not good if you're buying something symbolic. Definitely some symbolism there. Relationships (romantic and otherwise) are indeed more like houses and cars - innately valuable, easily damaged, and requiring regular maintenance - than diamonds.
    - astura 5y ago
      Right, I agree (and that's why I'm not "into" diamonds/useless trinkets) - but that's a realistic take, not the sort of thing people who are buying/receiving diamonds want.

ddorian43 5y ago

Thats the point you should've realised that people aren't most of the time rational but emotional.

aliyfarah 5y ago

Thanks for the story, that was a very good analogy by your prof.

chrisseaton 5y ago
> that was a very good analogy by your prof. Sounds like it wasn't because it didn't convince many people!
- myfavoritedog 5y ago
  Because people are rational and can be convinced to abandon notions of value deeply ingrained since childhood because of a nice analogy during a single lecture?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    If an analogy doesn't help you look at a situation any differently... is it a good analogy?
    - aliyfarah 5y ago
      To each their own...it helped me look at lab diamonds differently. I've always assumed they were somehow chemically inferior to the real ones, maybe compromised tensile strength or something.
    - filleduchaos 5y ago
      By this logic there are no good analogies because there will always be someone that will refuse to look at the situation differently for whatever reason.

qw 5y ago

It's mostly about the emotional attachment. If you find two identical pens, and one of them was used by a famous writer, you would expect a price difference. There is no difference in the quality of those pens. They both work the same, and using the writer's pen will not make you a better writer by itself. I personally would not buy a natural diamond because of the ethical issues, but I do understand the students who feel there is a difference.

Nursie 5y ago
That's a good point, the difference doesn't have to be in the item itself, BUT - Does anyone, other than geologists of course, really care about the back-story of the diamond, how it was created and how it was mined? Or are they just hanging on to an idea that some of them are "real" and some "not real" for the purposes of social signalling? If the latter, I would consider this much more changeable over time.
- coddle-hark 5y ago
  > Does anyone, other than geologists of course, really care about the back-story of the diamond, how it was created and how it was mined? Yes, very much so, as is the case with all lifestyle products. People want to believe that they’re buying something special.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    Really? I've never met anyone that talked about it at all. Maybe I don't have conversations about diamonds very often, but people only ever seemed concerned that they were 'real', and latterly that they were conflict-free. > People want to believe that they’re buying something special. What if it turns out they're not?
    - alfiedotwtf 5y ago
      Jewelers provide certifications when buying diamonds. They'd be a) on the hook if they sold counterfeit products, and b) they wouldn't be able to sell anymore because of a tarnished brand.

me_me_me 5y ago

Or that some people are small minded without insight of how their decision shape the world around them. Be it diamonds, sports cars, etc doesnt matter.

guerrilla 5y ago
They were just given the insight, so that's not it. It's more that they don't care.

xenocratus 5y ago

I think the question might be a bit misleading. "Would you rather have X?" isn't the same as "Would you rather your spouse buys you X?". I'd prefer having a natural diamond too, for the same reason I'd prefer having a piece of ember with an insect that was trapped there naturally millions of years ago as opposed to a man-made one that was produced last month. By no means would I buy a natural diamond or support the mining system behind it, but there's no denying that I'd find it more interesting and somehow awe-inspiring.

heliodor 5y ago
The current narrative is more along the lines of, "How much work should your fiancee spend on declaring his commitment to you?" The societal answer is at least two months. Salary is the convenient measure for this. The ring is the communication medium.
- rndgermandude 5y ago
  >The societal answer is at least two months. Might be an American thing? My parents spent about 1 month worth of my dad's salary on two wedding rings a long time ago. My dad actually wanted to buy a far more expensive ring for my mom, but she insisted to keep it simple and "cheap" and "unproblematic" to wear. Same story in the rest of the family. Friends (usually a lot younger than my parents) spend even less on rings, I'd estimate 400-600 EUR per ring from what I keep hearing. I've heard about that two months rule before, in American TV shows and movies, never thought about it. Now I wonder if it's really an American thing, or if people around me are just cheapskates :P
  - dboreham 5y ago
    It's an American rich person thing.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      It's the opposite in my opinion. The richer the social circle, the less people care about stuff like diamonds or 2 months salary (which I never even heard of outside of online discussions). A diamond ring is barely a notable expense for a dual six figure earning couple.

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tiborsaas 5y ago

> at a fraction of the cost That might also be the reason. If something is cheaper, it feels inferior. Also with diamonds it's probably a factor that the fiancé is expected to present serious intents with a deeper monetary investment. "Look honey, it's an ethical, clean diamond and only cost 1/20th of a dirty one" sad, but feels wrong. Edit: I also remember a guy at dinner party bragging about buying a 5000EUR ring, it goes both ways.

mrighele 5y ago
> Also with diamonds it's probably a factor that the fiancé is expected to present serious intents with a deeper monetary investment. "Look honey, it's an ethical, clean diamond and only cost 1/20th of a dirty one" sad, but feels wrong. Then he can spend the same money for a bigger diamond ? That would give also more bragging rights to the future wife (nobody will come and ask if it is a natural or artificial one).
jankassens 5y ago
Maybe the key would be to keep the artificial diamond ring at a similar price point. Larger, designer brand, more manual labor details, I don’t know. Not saving money, but get a superior product.
throw0101a 5y ago
> A Veblen good is a type of luxury good for which the demand for a good increases as the price increases, in apparent contradiction of the law of demand, resulting in an upward-sloping demand curve. The higher prices of Veblen goods may make them desirable as a status symbol in the practices of conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure. A product may be a Veblen good because it is a positional good, something few others can own. * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good Also: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giffen_good
anoncake 5y ago
Buy 20 then. I wonder if there's a way to tastefully put them all on a single ring.

veltas 5y ago

Diamonds are precious partly because they're rare. If you find a way of 'making' a diamond it loses some of that value. It's interesting to me that someone would even try making a comparison between a precious stone and something like water/ice which is mostly desired for utility and not any sentimental reason.

JCM9 5y ago
They’re actually not all that rare. Big Hope Diamond stones yes, but your run of the mill variety that 99.9% of people have are not all that rare. The “rarity” comes mostly from the the tight grip a small number of companies have over mining and production of raw stones. You can make tap water “rare” if you run the waterworks.
- caf 5y ago
  It also comes from selling them as "this is a sentimental item that you should keep forever" and "these are bought as meaningful gifts so it would be gauche to buy one second hand" to limit the size of the secondary market.
AlanSE 5y ago
But the rarity leads to intensive mining and human rights abuses. There's a good kind of rare (like say, an original painting, bought from the artist) and a bad kind of rare. Sentiments can change. Diamonds will not become unemotional, but the emotional reaction will likely go into reverse soon.
caf 5y ago
The "rarity" is mostly marketing too.
ErrantX 5y ago
Your comment proves the point on marketing; diamonds are not actually that rare, a lot of the scarcity is marketing plus control of supply by De Beers & others. In fact, Diamonds are some of the most common gems in nature! https://www.gemsociety.org/article/are-diamonds-really-rare/ https://www.gemsociety.org/article/are-diamonds-really-rare/

tom_mellior 5y ago

> our teacher asked all of the women Sounds like a pretty sexist thing to do. The same question can be asked without putting women on the spot. "If you were to buy a diamond, what would you rather choose?"

NikolaNovak 5y ago
My initial instinct agreed with you,but I then wondered if there would actually be a relevant gender difference in answers. In western culture, still today I think,majority of men would be buying and majority of women would be receiving diamonds. It would be interesting if this affects answers. Would a buyer go for more practical cheaper option while receiver goes for more expensive traditional options? Or a different split completely , or none? I think it'd be a fascinating exercise.
- vulpesx2 5y ago
  Same reaction. I've anecdotally asked this same question: "man-made or natural diamonds?" to my friends in the past – mostly because I can't get past the ethical concerns, but wanted to understand the other side. I found majority of my men friends argued it's the same diamond without the ethical concerns if you go man-made, while majority of my women friends chose natural (reasons included social pressure, the story, and so on). Anecdotes aren't proof. But perhaps there is something to looking at this from a gendered (proxy for giving vs. receiving?) lens.
  - frockington1 5y ago
    As a male giving a ring, I bought a real one. Logic was that it was cheaper and better quality once you get over ~1-1.25 carats. If lab made wants to compete more meaningfully they'll need to get better at the engagement ring size diamonds which I'm sure they will with time
    - aquadrop 5y ago
      They are both real.

coward76 5y ago

Would you rather buy a Banksy NFT Or JPG of a Banksy they are the same image at a fraction of the cost?

myfavoritedog 5y ago
You can turn around and resell a Banksy for something comparable to what you just paid. Try doing that with a diamond. You walk out of the diamond showroom with it, and its resale value plummets to the value of the base metals, the work of the setting, plus a small fraction for what you had just paid for the diamond.
- zaroth 5y ago
  A certified laser etched diamond is a mass produced item that is pretty easy to authenticate. The brand name store selling it to you is invisible once it’s on your hand. There’s no such thing as a “used” diamond. So the diamond is worth whatever it can be bought / sold for online. If walking out of the store drops it’s value, you’re donating to the store. Buy an exactly equivalent stone elsewhere if the price drops too much after you buy it.
  - Loughla 5y ago
    I think the issue is that there is no really trustworthy place to go for used diamonds to ensure you're not buying a cheap knock-off or lower grade gem. Most people don't understand cut, clarity, and whatever else are the other ones. Pawn shops are amazing places to buy SUPER cheap jewelry, especially diamonds. The issue is that, unless you definitely know what you're doing, it's super easy to get taken advantage of. I wish there was a trustworthy clearinghouse/reseller for used jewelry and gemstones. That would be fantastic.
onion2k 5y ago
The NFT is a pointer to the image, not the image itself. Owning a copy of the JPG is actually closer to owning the art.
rndgermandude 5y ago

petre 5y ago

> The reasons they gave all seemed to tie back to branding and natural diamonds being “real.” Forced child labour used to extract natural diamonds in some parts of the world is also real. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_the_diamond_industry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour_in_the_diamond_in...

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raverbashing 5y ago

He should have explained about DeBeers. That would have brought the number of raised hands down. The ice analogy is a bit faulty because no one is eating their diamonds and the impurities are technically advantageous (though most people want the shiny "perfect" diamond which are much easier to come about artificially).

slightwinder 5y ago
Aren't the impurities which make them shiny? Or is this also just marketing?
- raverbashing 5y ago
  No, impurities would make it not white. Pure diamonds are shiny the same way (shinier than glass).

Kalium 5y ago

I find it helps to remember that diamonds are a status symbol and a form of conspicuous consumption. People often want as much of that expensive, visible status and commitment signal as they can get. Part of the significance of the gesture is the level of painful expense involved. So making the item much cheaper also cheapens the gesture.

notyourday 5y ago
> Part of the significance of the gesture is the level of painful expense involved. So making the item much cheaper also cheapens the gesture. Call it what it is: diamonds are a down payment from a man to a woman for access to sex. The higher the price, the higher the value he assigns to it.
- Kalium 5y ago
  Nope. Nope nope nope nope.
  - notyourday 5y ago
    In the alternative universe women who can't afford diamonds, buy diamonds for men. In the same alternative universe, the families of men look at the Cs of the ring and judge if "she is good enough for him". In the same alternative universe, men get together, pull out their diamond rings and discuss if those rings are worth the sacrifice. And in the same alternative universe the commercials on TV are "She went to Jared!" and "Give him the gift of Pandora" Alas, in our universe it does not happen.
    - Loughla 5y ago
      >In the same alternative universe, the families of men look at the Cs of the ring and judge if "she is good enough for him". In the same alternative universe, men get together, pull out their diamond rings and discuss if those rings are worth the sacrifice. You might need to take a break and take a walk away from media. Do you honestly think this is a thing for all women? Do you honestly believe life is like a television sitcom or romantic comedy?

Angostura 5y ago

NFTs suggest that there will never be an end to the appetite for making things 'special'.

evrydayhustling 5y ago

Diamond branding taps into a much more fundamental obsession with scarcity, which manufactured objects cannot provide. Scott Galloway explores this really well in a recent post comparing NFTs to long-standing art world practices: "Scarcity has always been a function of bits, not atoms." [1] I wonder if synthetic diamonds that were organized into specifically limited editions would hold more value... [1] https://www.profgalloway.com/scarcity-cred/ https://www.profgalloway.com/scarcity-cred/

Nursie 5y ago
Potentially synthetic diamonds could destroy the scarcity appeal of natural diamonds.
- evrydayhustling 5y ago
  Right or wrong, Galloway's thesis would specifically reject that idea. Synthetic diamonds are equivalent (or superior!) on an atoms level. But on a bits level they lack the history of being formed in the Earth's crust, which stays scarce. Diamond marketing exploits that to good effect -- most diamonds are marked and registered in a database that traces its unique history. Doing so makes it possible to value the history as unique, and also leads by example in investing in the value of that history (they make a big deal out of the tech used to confirm authenticity). Since the final purpose of the diamond is to demonstrate stored value rather than produce it, the target buyer is focused on whether others recognize the value, not whether it is justified. On a personal level, I think the history of "real" diamonds is almost always horrific and a negative asset! I hope companies like Pandora can put marketing power into creating scarcity stories for synthetic diamonds.
  - an_opabinia 5y ago
    > most diamonds are marked and registered in a database that traces its unique history Most engineering projects around cultural products change (not necessarily improve) the "registered in a database" process. Whereas most value comes from creating / enriching a "unique history."

lettergram 5y ago

While I personally don’t think natural diamonds are any more valuable than synthetic. I understand the scarcity and way it’s used to show status (similar to cars, we don’t need great ones). That being said, what I actually took away from that comment... was that the teacher in geology class was presenting effectively political argument as opposed to teaching. Explaining the process of fine, but given what you described — I bet no one changed their mind about synthetic vs real. Most knew what the “correct” answer was. I think everyone kinda knows about synthetic diamonds, they just don’t care. Same way plastic bottles are better for the environment, yet are still used widely.

Loughla 5y ago
>I think everyone kinda knows about synthetic diamonds, they just don’t care. I 100% disagree. The stigma around cubic zirconia and 'fake' jewelry is real and alive, and absolutely carries over to any kind of man-made gems. I also don't think most people have any idea at all about the issues in the gem trade. Source: My highly educated co-workers who were astounded to read about conditions in emerald mines after Elon Musk got popular.
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  what does elon musk have to do with emerald mines?
  - Loughla 5y ago
    There was the story about Elon Musk's family ties to apartheid and an emerald mine in like 2017-2018. That's where that comes from.
- vel0city 5y ago
  Cubic zirconia (Mohs 8) is less hard than diamonds (Mohs 10) or Moissanite (Mohs 9.25). For something that gets a lot of wear, the CZ will get scratched up and have its edges rounded off more over time than diamonds or Moissanite. But, if its something that only gets occasional wear this is likely not going to be too much of an issue. Just don't go banging your stone on a pile of diamonds. CZ also has a lower refractive index and less dispersion than either diamonds or Moissanite.

jl2718 5y ago

“Do you want natural diamonds or man-made diamonds?” The correct answer is: no.

GrumpyNl 5y ago

Its all about marketing. Look close around you and look at the money spend on bottled water.

faeyanpiraat 5y ago

This might have been the wrong way to run this experiment. The fact that the participants publicly shared their opinion, and then they would also publicly had to signal that they were wrong could simply be such a big psychological factor, that the topic at hand did not matter. It would’ve been better to vote anonymously, or even better ask one class at the beginning and a different class at the end of the lecture, then share the statistics with both classes at the next lecture.

chimeracoder 5y ago
On the other hand (pun not intended) diamonds are primarily used this way in engagement/wedding rings, which is a social signifier, so asking this question in the context of social pressure is arguably a better estimate of how people would behave for a form of conspicuous consumption.

lelanthran 5y ago

You heard a different question to the one the women heard. You heard "Do you want this man-made item that is functionally identical to a naturally occurring item". The women heard "Do you want the jewelry that symbolises your love to be real or fake?" Functionally, there is almost no difference in an item containing a diamond and an identical one containing worthless rock. But, you know, jewelry derives almost all of its value from being expensive and rare. Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry.

moistbar 5y ago
> Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry. Costume jewelry is usually neither expensive nor rare, and yet it remains popular with certain demographics.
- samatman 5y ago
  Sure but, please, let's show some context sensitivity. An engagement ring is emphatically not costume jewelry, and if you don't understand that "real jewelry" is an important sense the antonym of "costume jewelry", well, now you do.
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > > Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry. > > Costume jewelry is usually neither expensive nor rare, and yet it remains popular with certain demographics. Okay, let me clarify: Jewelry that is neither expensive nor rare stops being jewelry, it becomes costume jewelry.
- kixiQu 5y ago
  "Fine jewelry" and "fashion jewelry" are the category names, typically.

gmadsen 5y ago

I has nothing to do with branding. It is entirely about price and false scarcity. traditionally it was an important gesture that the man was investing a large sum of money into his soon to be wife

CivBase 5y ago
I never understood the idea behind a wedding ring being an "investment". It's not like you plan on ever selling it. It's purely an expense. If you wont sell it, then a ring's value is only in its aesthetic and any sentiment attached to it by the wearer - neither of which seem to be strongly related to the initial purchasing price. Of course, people often sell their rings if they get divorced... but wouldn't that make actually an expensive ring an incentive to separate? The whole gesture makes very little sense.
- gmadsen 5y ago
  The gesture, is that the man is willing to spend that much money, and because of that, is serious about the woman, sort of like a purchase. Its not an investment in the sense of producing or keeping value. Of course, times are very different now, and it is quite an antiquated idea.
  - CivBase 5y ago
    So like an escrow for a marriage proposal... except it's held by the person to which the offer is made and is never closed out if the offer is accepted. I still can't say I get it. Rings I get. They are a symbol of commitment, a sentimental memento, and just a nice accessory. But the idea that the cost to purchase the ring is somehow a reflection of that is still silly to me.

smabie 5y ago

everyone would prefer natural diamonds to artificial ones. Why? Because natural ones are more expensive. It's literally like asking someone whether they prefer to have $20 or $40.

mNovak 5y ago
If your partner offers to buy you a $5 McDonalds cheeseburger or a $50 McDonalds cheeseburger, which would you accept?
- smabie 5y ago
  Assuming a somewhat efficient market, I'll take the $50 cheeseburger. Obviously I would want a more expensive thing than a less expensive thing from a partner. If we split up, I could sell the more expensive thing for... more.

CivBase 5y ago

Reminds me of when Jamie Oliver tried to convince kids that chicken nuggets were bad by showing them how nuggets are made. Even after showing disgust at the whole process, all of the kids still wanted to eat chicken nuggets at the end. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKwL5G5HbGA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKwL5G5HbGA I think it takes a lot more than logic to convince most people to change opinions - especially on matters of preference or taste.

washadjeffmad 5y ago

I went through this not that many years ago buying a ring for my SO. My biggest mistake was including her in the decision. She described what she wanted exactly– nothing gaudy or ostentatious, just a singular, tasteful stone on a plain band. Couldn't be simpler, could it? Finding stones that met her criteria was easy. Some were natural diamonds, some lab grown, many moissanite. From the outset, she said the meaning of the ring was what was most important and that she didn't want to pick it out herself (after effectively picking it out herself). We'd talked about moissanite a lot over the years, and she'd approved of the idea, and the same with lab grown diamonds. We're college educated adults with backgrounds in the sciences, so we weren't on uneven footing with comprehension. When I showed her what I'd picked out, it quickly devolved into a lot of uncharacteristic tears and shouting. It took a few more tries, and then she explained. Apparently a lab grown diamond meant my love for her was also artificial, a budgeted ersatz stand-in for the real thing, and me saying we could spend more on a larger stone or matching set further belied my ignorance. No, she wanted me to have picked out an allegory for our love: a "perfect" diamond. She then sent me the details of the stone she actually wanted. After a little "wait, where's this coming from and why did you let me spend weeks searching if there was only one right answer", I ended up spending twice our decided budget on a "natural" diamond with the same characteristics as the lab grown (except the diamond's clarity was lower, because lab grown clarity is always perfect), which wasn't any object, but now the ring is marred by the memories of arguments, and she doesn't really love it. Lesson learned. I don't know what kind of spell the diamond people cast on otherwise reasonable women to make them able to reduce the totality of a life and experiences shared together into a single crystalline bet, but they need to package it and sell it to the military.

jliptzin 5y ago
I sincerely wish you good luck in your marriage, you’re going to need it.
- fisherjeff 5y ago
  That seems a little harsh? Even people in the best marriages sometimes have emotional, irrational disagreements

eplanit 5y ago

You could make the same analogy with CGI vs. human-drawn imagery. Yes, you can draw much more precisely, and generates millions of copies of that precision, etc. with CGI. But, does a CGI rendering really have the same 'value' as seeing something drawn entirely by hand? I guess some would say 'yes' -- and I'd direct them to the factory-made diamond counter. Others, though, would value the _human_ involvement (not to discount the programmers who wrote the CGI software) -- even if that includes people toiling in mines. It's not surprising that the 30 minute lecture didn't sway too many minds -- I think the professor didn't 'get it' in his/her own way. People aren't just buying collections of atoms (though they actually are).

the_local_host 5y ago

Equivalent is not as good when what matters is what other people think. Even if the person displaying a luxury artifact agrees that some other artifact is equivalent, if the people they're displaying it to don't also agree, then there is a difference that's relevant to the purpose of the artifact, which is to advertise your wealth. Though the topic at hand is diamonds, which are strongly associated with wedding proposals, this principle applies equally to sports cars, guitars, etc.

literallycancer 5y ago
You could just use an artificial stone and no one would know. If you just care about the signal, buy good replicas of things you could plausibly afford, how hard can it be.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- the_local_host 5y ago
  Not everyone is comfortable with the risk that the truth might eventually come out. What some intrepid manufacturer should do is create custom diamonds that are actually more expensive than natural diamonds, with some subtle structure that cannot be found in nature. That solves the problem of immoral sourcing, and better suits the purpose of displaying wealth.

oconnor663 5y ago

Diamonds are a prestige thing, like fancy watches. It doesn't make sense to lecture a fancy-watch-wearer about how cheap electric watches can actually tell time better. They know, and that's not the axis that matters to them.

lhorie 5y ago

> That was the point where I realized the strength of diamonds product branding. Here's another interesting twist that further shows how powerful branding and marketing really are: Spence Diamonds is a diamond retailer in Canada that advertises extremely aggressively via radio ads. A few years ago, it started a huge campaign for lab grown diamonds, portraying them with adjectives such as "artisan-made" (going as far as comparing them to Michelangelo art). And what do you know: > While still offering mined diamonds, Spence has found that when its customers are given a choice, 80% of them choose lab-growns over mined diamonds[0] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2019/05/12/spence-diamonds-is-a-traditional-jeweler-that-discovered-a-gold-mine-in-lab-grown-diamonds/?sh=127b0b902b37 https://www.forbes.com/sites/pamdanziger/2019/05/12/spence-d...

dec0dedab0de 5y ago

This is great, I want to go back a decade and relive an argument I had about this with a co-worker who was ring shopping for his now wife. I was trying to explain to him that diamonds are worthless, they have little resale value because they're not fungible, the rarity is being manipulated, and man made diamonds are indistinguishable without a special tool. His position was that he can't get his fiance a "fake diamond" and I said just because it's man made doesn't mean that it isn't real. We went back and forth a bit, and started to get heated, and eventually I said "If I make a sandwich it doesn't mean it's not a real sandwich!" which made our other co-workers laugh hysterically and repeat for years. Ice would have made the point much better than a sandwich, but I suspect I wouldn't remember the story.

pbuzbee 5y ago

The root of it, I think, is that mined diamonds are the standard for engagement rings. Culturally, having a mined diamond is (for many/most Americans) table stakes for what an engagement ring should be. Getting a lab grown diamond or an alternative stone for your girlfriend can feel like you chose saving money or your personal views on diamond ethics over getting her something that meets those table stakes. It doesn't matter if it's technically superior (I rarely hear people discuss the quality of their diamonds anyway, beyond weight occasionally). What does matter is that you chose to give her something different than the standard, and the ring will always feel like it has a little asterisk on it marking this.

judwaite 5y ago

Branding and artificial scarcity

gandalfian 5y ago

Didn't ice cubes made from icebergs command a premium price once? Don't know if it was deserved.

rags2riches 5y ago
My ice cubes are also made from icebergs. They just melted a long time ago!

caeril 5y ago

> I realized the strength of diamonds product branding No, that's not it. Diamonds are conspicuous status signaling. It's a very human, even animal drive. DeBeers gets a lot of hate, and much of it deservedly so, but they tapped into and exploited our nature - they didn't create it.

JoshTko 5y ago

The teacher was fighting another principle of consistency. where people want to be consistent with a previous decision. There probably would have been more hands raised for human made if the professor never did the first voting.

creamytaco 5y ago

That doesn't bode well for your marriage. I would ditch her now before it's too late .. later.

mariodiana 5y ago

A natural diamond is nature's NFT.

samatman 5y ago

As an alternative, let me share an observation. People don't often change their minds right away. Specifically, there is a huge amount of neural reconfiguration which happens when we sleep, which is why we "sleep on it". The interesting question, which is impossible to answer, is how those women felt about lab-grown diamonds by the time it was important. I'd guess that nearly all of them became more open to the idea, and that more changed their minds later than had revised their opinion immediately after the lecture.

conductr 5y ago

Random ice story! My mother in law buys “good ice” that is clear despite having a purified water source on her ice maker. She even has frozen bottled water and says it’s cloudy and tastes bad. I’ve explained to her numerous times that her clear ice is clear because they freeze it quickly. That’s it. It doesn’t taste better. She refuses to believe me and it’s basically a joke we tease her about now.

Balgair 5y ago

Aside: Go to gem and mineral shows for jewelry. They are very close to wholesale prices and as such can be up to 10x less expensive than a store, and cash purchases typically even less. Jewelry diamonds at such event aren't the main item that people are there for though. It's the truly rare items that you find. Things like non-standard colored sapphires, gargantuan amethysts, gem rhodochrosite, fossils of dubious pedigree, meteorites, fordite, etc. Working diamonds, ones that are perfectly made and the size of your palm, can be bought and then cut down for relatively cheap. Many research labs and universities get samples at these events in 'legal' deals. Especially near the end of the shows when vendors need to make a sale, things get pretty wild as the liquor comes out as well as the cash. Check your local listings, ads, and billboards. It's a great Saturday activity even for the nephews and nieces.