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Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn

Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them.

beforeolives 6y ago
Think of it from the opposite direction - a requirement for forming and maintaing friendships is that you get to spend time with someone and interact with them on a regular basis. That makes work one of the most likely places to form friendships for adults.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  I guess the assumed expiration date makes it harder for me to accept that I should make the effort to become friends.
  - lovegoblin 6y ago
    That's why you become friends: so that you stay in touch after the "expiration date."
tablespoon 6y ago
> Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? Not always, and not for everyone. > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. That attitude will directly lead to superficial relationships. Many people would like some non-superficial social connection to at least some of the people who they spend a large fraction of their days with, and seeking and maintaining some relationships like that is probably healthier, too.
- tenebrisalietum 6y ago
  I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter.
  - tablespoon 6y ago
    > I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter. I don't know where your comment came from, because in no way did I suggest that anyone should try to be friends with everyone they meet.
bartread 6y ago
But that's true of a lot of life isn't it? You get very little choice who you go to school with, and yet many people make lifelong friends at school. Even as I traverse middle age I'm still good friends with half a dozen people I went to school with, and on friendly speaking terms with at least a couple of dozen more. Work does seem different though: relationships often don't hold in the same way. I stay in touch with relatively few people out of the hundreds or (low) thousands I've worked with over the years. The vast majority of them are from one company where I worked for nearly 10 years, and most of them joined in the first 3 or 4 years of that 10 or were already there when I started. I suspect a lot of it boils down to the amount of "quality" time you spent together - directly interacting and sharing experiences - versus those you swap in and out with.
- eplanit 6y ago
  True, and it depends on whether you've geographically moved over the years. I found that (unfortunately) ends friendships that would/could have developed.
- dazc 6y ago
  Sometimes the only thing in common you have is where you work and this isn't enough to keep the realtionship going after they have left. With real friends you'll have some other common experiences that help maintain the bond. So, yes, the amount of quality time spent together out of a forced situation, such as sharing office space, is a big factor.
jollybean 6y ago
Just because you're not friends doesn't mean the relationships are 'superficial'. I really enjoy the company of my work colleagues. Especially in a business setting, where it's not all 'heads down work', I think it's kind of important actually. Professionalism is resonant, being around other people lifts you up, you learn from them, are energized, hopefully in mostly positive ways. For Engineering work ... I'm worried that young folks won't have the opportunity for good mentors.
- sdevonoes 6y ago
  Well, perhaps I'm in the minority group but the best mentors I have had are: - W. Richard Stevens - Andrew S. Tanenbaum - Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie - ... Yes, I'm talking about books :)
  - ducharmdev 6y ago
    Mentors can give you feedback that books can't, though. No matter how good a person is at self-reflection, you simply can't perceive yourself outside of your own perspective. Not trying to knock reading of course, but it's no replacement for a good mentor.
    - sdevonoes 6y ago
      Fair enough. I just don't think one can find good mentors willing to help in normal jobs/companies. Perhaps in FAANGs yeah, but 99% of us, devs, do not work for FAANGs.
      - ducharmdev 6y ago
        As one of those devs in the 99%, I get that. But if you're okay with getting outside your comfort zone a bit, you can still find people to (at least informally) mentor you throughout your career. For example, I volunteer as a mentor for Code Louisville, and we actively encourage students to stay in touch even after the program when it comes to job hunting, programming questions, etc. I've also managed to find experienced devs for myself through local dev meetups, but have also had luck just messaging people on Linkedin. Sure, not all devs are going to be willing, but a lot of people respond well to basic curiosity and humility.
bonoboTP 6y ago
This kind of "anonymous" work is relatively recent. It's not how humans lived and worked for the majority of our existence. Before the industrial revolution, the vast majority of people worked in agriculture and most definitely knew who they were working with: their family, extended family and neighbors. Similarly, women were socializing while weaving clothes etc. This atomized "biorobot" view of the employee is quite new and doesn't seem very healthy.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  Yeah, given the shift to strangers, I don't know why anyone would think it's strange that we aren't certain to make friends with these people.
- mLuby 6y ago
  Perhaps because until recently a "career" meant working for one company for 35 years, likely in the same city. With that kind of stability, long-term friendships can blossom. It's harder if you're changing companies every 2-3 years and cities every 5-6 (as seems common enough in Tech at least). Digital nomads are the vanguard—look to them to see what works and what doesn't.
amelius 6y ago
This is why company drinks and company outings are always so weird.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  'Oh look, people I work with every day and do my best to be professional in front of now want me to drink in front of them on my day off. This is going to be fun."
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
> I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. False dichotomy. Building relationships and earning a living aren't mutually exclusive. Building healthy, lasting relationships with your peers isn't necessarily required to get a job done, but it certainly makes it more enjoyable. Of course not everyone is going to be interested in authentic relationships at work, but that doesn't mean that nobody wants to be friends at the office. If you can only view your work peers as pure business interactions, you're missing out.
- SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
  Do you find you're still friends with a lot of people you worked with at your previous positions?
  - bitbuilder 6y ago
    As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, I can say that literally all of my close friends at this point in life were previous coworkers. Especially if you relocate away from your hometown for a job, I'm not sure why that would be surprising to anyone. You spend at least 8 hours a day with these people, it only makes sense you'd eventually build some connections with them. And as the parent post points out, it certainly makes the days more enjoyable when you've built healthy relationships with your peers. And come to think of it, most people 30+ I know seem to have friend groups of almost exclusively current or former coworkers. I don't think I'm by any means unique.
    - jghn 6y ago
      It's funny, I thought this was going the exact opposite direction when I read "As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years". As another middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, that describes none of the people I know in my age group. Sure, some of us have actual friends that were coworkers, but it's one or two people and somewhat tangential friendship. If it were just you & I comparing our individual anecdata I'd have chalked it up to that, but this feels like perhaps there's something more going on. I suppose one explanation is that people who form close bonds with coworkers are going to be more likely to hanging out with others who form close bonds with coworkers and vice versa?
lovegoblin 6y ago
> I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. Maybe you don't miss them because you never talked to them.

beforeolives 6y ago

Think of it from the opposite direction - a requirement for forming and maintaing friendships is that you get to spend time with someone and interact with them on a regular basis. That makes work one of the most likely places to form friendships for adults.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
I guess the assumed expiration date makes it harder for me to accept that I should make the effort to become friends.
- lovegoblin 6y ago
  That's why you become friends: so that you stay in touch after the "expiration date."

tablespoon 6y ago

> Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? Not always, and not for everyone. > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. That attitude will directly lead to superficial relationships. Many people would like some non-superficial social connection to at least some of the people who they spend a large fraction of their days with, and seeking and maintaining some relationships like that is probably healthier, too.

tenebrisalietum 6y ago
I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter.
- tablespoon 6y ago
  > I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter. I don't know where your comment came from, because in no way did I suggest that anyone should try to be friends with everyone they meet.

bartread 6y ago

But that's true of a lot of life isn't it? You get very little choice who you go to school with, and yet many people make lifelong friends at school. Even as I traverse middle age I'm still good friends with half a dozen people I went to school with, and on friendly speaking terms with at least a couple of dozen more. Work does seem different though: relationships often don't hold in the same way. I stay in touch with relatively few people out of the hundreds or (low) thousands I've worked with over the years. The vast majority of them are from one company where I worked for nearly 10 years, and most of them joined in the first 3 or 4 years of that 10 or were already there when I started. I suspect a lot of it boils down to the amount of "quality" time you spent together - directly interacting and sharing experiences - versus those you swap in and out with.

eplanit 6y ago
True, and it depends on whether you've geographically moved over the years. I found that (unfortunately) ends friendships that would/could have developed.
dazc 6y ago
Sometimes the only thing in common you have is where you work and this isn't enough to keep the realtionship going after they have left. With real friends you'll have some other common experiences that help maintain the bond. So, yes, the amount of quality time spent together out of a forced situation, such as sharing office space, is a big factor.

jollybean 6y ago

Just because you're not friends doesn't mean the relationships are 'superficial'. I really enjoy the company of my work colleagues. Especially in a business setting, where it's not all 'heads down work', I think it's kind of important actually. Professionalism is resonant, being around other people lifts you up, you learn from them, are energized, hopefully in mostly positive ways. For Engineering work ... I'm worried that young folks won't have the opportunity for good mentors.

sdevonoes 6y ago
Well, perhaps I'm in the minority group but the best mentors I have had are: - W. Richard Stevens - Andrew S. Tanenbaum - Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie - ... Yes, I'm talking about books :)
- ducharmdev 6y ago
  Mentors can give you feedback that books can't, though. No matter how good a person is at self-reflection, you simply can't perceive yourself outside of your own perspective. Not trying to knock reading of course, but it's no replacement for a good mentor.
  - sdevonoes 6y ago
    Fair enough. I just don't think one can find good mentors willing to help in normal jobs/companies. Perhaps in FAANGs yeah, but 99% of us, devs, do not work for FAANGs.
    - ducharmdev 6y ago
      As one of those devs in the 99%, I get that. But if you're okay with getting outside your comfort zone a bit, you can still find people to (at least informally) mentor you throughout your career. For example, I volunteer as a mentor for Code Louisville, and we actively encourage students to stay in touch even after the program when it comes to job hunting, programming questions, etc. I've also managed to find experienced devs for myself through local dev meetups, but have also had luck just messaging people on Linkedin. Sure, not all devs are going to be willing, but a lot of people respond well to basic curiosity and humility.

bonoboTP 6y ago

This kind of "anonymous" work is relatively recent. It's not how humans lived and worked for the majority of our existence. Before the industrial revolution, the vast majority of people worked in agriculture and most definitely knew who they were working with: their family, extended family and neighbors. Similarly, women were socializing while weaving clothes etc. This atomized "biorobot" view of the employee is quite new and doesn't seem very healthy.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
Yeah, given the shift to strangers, I don't know why anyone would think it's strange that we aren't certain to make friends with these people.
mLuby 6y ago
Perhaps because until recently a "career" meant working for one company for 35 years, likely in the same city. With that kind of stability, long-term friendships can blossom. It's harder if you're changing companies every 2-3 years and cities every 5-6 (as seems common enough in Tech at least). Digital nomads are the vanguard—look to them to see what works and what doesn't.

amelius 6y ago

This is why company drinks and company outings are always so weird.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
'Oh look, people I work with every day and do my best to be professional in front of now want me to drink in front of them on my day off. This is going to be fun."

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

> I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. False dichotomy. Building relationships and earning a living aren't mutually exclusive. Building healthy, lasting relationships with your peers isn't necessarily required to get a job done, but it certainly makes it more enjoyable. Of course not everyone is going to be interested in authentic relationships at work, but that doesn't mean that nobody wants to be friends at the office. If you can only view your work peers as pure business interactions, you're missing out.

SketchySeaBeast 6y ago
Do you find you're still friends with a lot of people you worked with at your previous positions?
- bitbuilder 6y ago
  As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, I can say that literally all of my close friends at this point in life were previous coworkers. Especially if you relocate away from your hometown for a job, I'm not sure why that would be surprising to anyone. You spend at least 8 hours a day with these people, it only makes sense you'd eventually build some connections with them. And as the parent post points out, it certainly makes the days more enjoyable when you've built healthy relationships with your peers. And come to think of it, most people 30+ I know seem to have friend groups of almost exclusively current or former coworkers. I don't think I'm by any means unique.
  - jghn 6y ago
    It's funny, I thought this was going the exact opposite direction when I read "As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years". As another middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, that describes none of the people I know in my age group. Sure, some of us have actual friends that were coworkers, but it's one or two people and somewhat tangential friendship. If it were just you & I comparing our individual anecdata I'd have chalked it up to that, but this feels like perhaps there's something more going on. I suppose one explanation is that people who form close bonds with coworkers are going to be more likely to hanging out with others who form close bonds with coworkers and vice versa?

lovegoblin 6y ago

> I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. Maybe you don't miss them because you never talked to them.