4 ms·

To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. I want my taxes to be automatically by some compu

To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. I want self-driving cars so that I don't have to deal with another human that's more prone to accidents, etc, etc. The list goes on. I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI, otherwise there would be big revolutions when most jobs are automated to some degree.

robocat 5y ago
> I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. This is already in progress in New Zealand. The government simplified taxation rules and everything is fairly automated now, the payments and the end-of-year. I got an email this year from our IRD (≈IRS) telling me that my annual tax return was already completed by them (electronically) and I just needed to login to confirm/authorise it.
- tremon 5y ago
  Same in NL, your employer already supplies the tax service with your wage information, and banks already supply the tax service with year-in/year-out balance information on your accounts. You can login on their portal, verify the pre-filled data on the form, and submit it. You only need to enter your own deductibles, if relevant.
- mcbishop 5y ago
  There's an argument that tax prep companies block that automation in the U.S.: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-time https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-ti...
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Argument? I thought that it is certain. https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Around here taxes are automatically deducted from my income by the employeer. Skatteetaten (≈IRS) then sends us a letter in early spring telling us what we owe or what we will get back, we get a chance to add extra expenses etc and then a final calculation is done and you either get an invoice or a payment, most likely a small payment as taxes payments are typically slightly larger than they need to be. Except if you run a business, then it is slightly more complicated depending on the size of your business, if you have employees etc. I have a small company so I need to report income from the company as well.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  In Poland taxation rules were not simplified, but tax filings for individuals are automatically generated based on documents supplied by employees. You only need to claim subsidies, select NGO which gets your 1% of tax - or skip that, Tax files itself automatically, If you are in weird situation, you can relatively easily modify it. Tax code is still awful (not sure whether I filed taxes correctly due to my weird situation), but frontend is one of better sites that I have seen. And the best government site that I encountered. Any functional government can setup this.
goatinaboat 5y ago
To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. Well... yes? The purpose of life isn't just to enhance shareholder value. Some stuff really is just inefficient of course but a lot of what looks like inefficiency in a pure economic sense is actually what people back in the day would have called living a good and satisfying and meaningful life.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnate.
  - goatinaboat 5y ago
    Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnat Yes, there are things that have taken genuine inefficiencies out, I wouldn't go back to the days e.g. of standing in a queue at the bank rather than online banking. But an efficient world looks like 996 and I don't think that's actually a good way to live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
Ygg2 5y ago
> I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI Is it though? I don't think it's impossible we see some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. What happens if you automate everything, and realize you don't need to feed millions of mouths. And, hey, police-military complex is already automated, so just send the drones and let them remove the excess humans.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. Even in that scenario, if all useful work is truly automated, there's either still some sort of UBI (just not enough to live comfortably) or the people living in squalor are subsistence farmers eating whatever they can manage to grow in whatever land they can lay claim to.

robocat 5y ago

> I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. This is already in progress in New Zealand. The government simplified taxation rules and everything is fairly automated now, the payments and the end-of-year. I got an email this year from our IRD (≈IRS) telling me that my annual tax return was already completed by them (electronically) and I just needed to login to confirm/authorise it.

tremon 5y ago
Same in NL, your employer already supplies the tax service with your wage information, and banks already supply the tax service with year-in/year-out balance information on your accounts. You can login on their portal, verify the pre-filled data on the form, and submit it. You only need to enter your own deductibles, if relevant.
mcbishop 5y ago
There's an argument that tax prep companies block that automation in the U.S.: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-time https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-ti...
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  Argument? I thought that it is certain. https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411
skinkestek 5y ago
Around here taxes are automatically deducted from my income by the employeer. Skatteetaten (≈IRS) then sends us a letter in early spring telling us what we owe or what we will get back, we get a chance to add extra expenses etc and then a final calculation is done and you either get an invoice or a payment, most likely a small payment as taxes payments are typically slightly larger than they need to be. Except if you run a business, then it is slightly more complicated depending on the size of your business, if you have employees etc. I have a small company so I need to report income from the company as well.
matkoniecz 5y ago
In Poland taxation rules were not simplified, but tax filings for individuals are automatically generated based on documents supplied by employees. You only need to claim subsidies, select NGO which gets your 1% of tax - or skip that, Tax files itself automatically, If you are in weird situation, you can relatively easily modify it. Tax code is still awful (not sure whether I filed taxes correctly due to my weird situation), but frontend is one of better sites that I have seen. And the best government site that I encountered. Any functional government can setup this.

goatinaboat 5y ago

To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. Well... yes? The purpose of life isn't just to enhance shareholder value. Some stuff really is just inefficient of course but a lot of what looks like inefficiency in a pure economic sense is actually what people back in the day would have called living a good and satisfying and meaningful life.

rawtxapp 5y ago
Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnate.
- goatinaboat 5y ago
  Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnat Yes, there are things that have taken genuine inefficiencies out, I wouldn't go back to the days e.g. of standing in a queue at the bank rather than online banking. But an efficient world looks like 996 and I don't think that's actually a good way to live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system

Ygg2 5y ago

> I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI Is it though? I don't think it's impossible we see some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. What happens if you automate everything, and realize you don't need to feed millions of mouths. And, hey, police-military complex is already automated, so just send the drones and let them remove the excess humans.

commandlinefan 5y ago
> some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. Even in that scenario, if all useful work is truly automated, there's either still some sort of UBI (just not enough to live comfortably) or the people living in squalor are subsistence farmers eating whatever they can manage to grow in whatever land they can lay claim to.