4 ms·

It’s kind of terrifying how few people in this industry take this seriously and dismiss unionizing and organization efforts. Every publicly owned company is inc

It’s kind of terrifying how few people in this industry take this seriously and dismiss unionizing and organization efforts. Every publicly owned company is incentivized to squeeze every possible penny out of their income statement and we know from history that corporations will fight hard to eliminate high wage labor whenever possible. Our salaries and power won’t last forever, and if we don’t turn around our culture of worshipping techno-aristocrats quickly then we’re all going to have a rough time in the next few decades.

rawtxapp 5y ago
To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. I want self-driving cars so that I don't have to deal with another human that's more prone to accidents, etc, etc. The list goes on. I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI, otherwise there would be big revolutions when most jobs are automated to some degree.
- robocat 5y ago
  > I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. This is already in progress in New Zealand. The government simplified taxation rules and everything is fairly automated now, the payments and the end-of-year. I got an email this year from our IRD (≈IRS) telling me that my annual tax return was already completed by them (electronically) and I just needed to login to confirm/authorise it.
  - tremon 5y ago
    Same in NL, your employer already supplies the tax service with your wage information, and banks already supply the tax service with year-in/year-out balance information on your accounts. You can login on their portal, verify the pre-filled data on the form, and submit it. You only need to enter your own deductibles, if relevant.
  - mcbishop 5y ago
    There's an argument that tax prep companies block that automation in the U.S.: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-time https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-ti...
    - matkoniecz 5y ago
      Argument? I thought that it is certain. https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    Around here taxes are automatically deducted from my income by the employeer. Skatteetaten (≈IRS) then sends us a letter in early spring telling us what we owe or what we will get back, we get a chance to add extra expenses etc and then a final calculation is done and you either get an invoice or a payment, most likely a small payment as taxes payments are typically slightly larger than they need to be. Except if you run a business, then it is slightly more complicated depending on the size of your business, if you have employees etc. I have a small company so I need to report income from the company as well.
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    In Poland taxation rules were not simplified, but tax filings for individuals are automatically generated based on documents supplied by employees. You only need to claim subsidies, select NGO which gets your 1% of tax - or skip that, Tax files itself automatically, If you are in weird situation, you can relatively easily modify it. Tax code is still awful (not sure whether I filed taxes correctly due to my weird situation), but frontend is one of better sites that I have seen. And the best government site that I encountered. Any functional government can setup this.
- goatinaboat 5y ago
  To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. Well... yes? The purpose of life isn't just to enhance shareholder value. Some stuff really is just inefficient of course but a lot of what looks like inefficiency in a pure economic sense is actually what people back in the day would have called living a good and satisfying and meaningful life.
  - rawtxapp 5y ago
    Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnate.
    - goatinaboat 5y ago
      Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnat Yes, there are things that have taken genuine inefficiencies out, I wouldn't go back to the days e.g. of standing in a queue at the bank rather than online banking. But an efficient world looks like 996 and I don't think that's actually a good way to live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
- Ygg2 5y ago
  > I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI Is it though? I don't think it's impossible we see some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. What happens if you automate everything, and realize you don't need to feed millions of mouths. And, hey, police-military complex is already automated, so just send the drones and let them remove the excess humans.
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    > some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. Even in that scenario, if all useful work is truly automated, there's either still some sort of UBI (just not enough to live comfortably) or the people living in squalor are subsistence farmers eating whatever they can manage to grow in whatever land they can lay claim to.
throw123123123 5y ago
I'm very excited about this reckoning. New grad engineers making 200/300k a year in the US vs Sr 10+ YOE engineers make 40k a year globally will be a wonderful collision. Better get more tech stock when that happens!
- throwawaygh 5y ago
  New grads don’t make 200k a year. There are some rare exceptions. Top kids from top schools. Very occasionally a quite special kid from a non-top school. It’s not normal. And IMO the majority of 10+ Yoe engineers are actually 1 yoe * 10, or more usually 2 yoe * 5.
  - rawtxapp 5y ago
    I think the parent comment is talking about Silicon Valley salaries where the ballpark starting compensation at FAANG is roughly in line with ~180k$ (that was my starting comp many years ago, it probably has increased since). In the Bay, that's the norm, but then again, cost of living is also very high. You don't have to be from a top school, but it does help.
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      Yes, I know. But again, it’s not even close to normal. There are a LOT of engineers outside of the bay and the fangs. It’s a bit like saying that finance pays well in Manhattan. Sure. But most people in the USA who work in finance are making mid/high 5 figures. Wall Street is small.
tarsinge 5y ago
That’s not terrifying, that’s awesome. Economists were saying decades ago that near the year 2000 we shouldn’t working much because of the gains of productivity. We would be free while everything would be automated. But instead we have billionaires confiscating the gains and owning the means of production. Not arguing, just saying automating work isn’t bad and can be good in itself, that’s the society rules that make it so.
- specialist 5y ago
  Automation implies boosting productivity. Who gets to keep the surplus (profit)? During New Deal and Great Society, Capital shared that surplus with Labor. Since the mid 1970s, not so much. Instead of automating, we could simply eliminate huge swathes of work. Squint a bit, and all the bureaucratic burden (bullshit jobs) just look like very complicated rent seeking.

rawtxapp 5y ago

To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. I want self-driving cars so that I don't have to deal with another human that's more prone to accidents, etc, etc. The list goes on. I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI, otherwise there would be big revolutions when most jobs are automated to some degree.

robocat 5y ago
> I want my taxes to be automatically by some computer without having to deal with a human that's more prone to errors. This is already in progress in New Zealand. The government simplified taxation rules and everything is fairly automated now, the payments and the end-of-year. I got an email this year from our IRD (≈IRS) telling me that my annual tax return was already completed by them (electronically) and I just needed to login to confirm/authorise it.
- tremon 5y ago
  Same in NL, your employer already supplies the tax service with your wage information, and banks already supply the tax service with year-in/year-out balance information on your accounts. You can login on their portal, verify the pre-filled data on the form, and submit it. You only need to enter your own deductibles, if relevant.
- mcbishop 5y ago
  There's an argument that tax prep companies block that automation in the U.S.: https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-time https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/otm/episodes/its-tax-ti...
  - matkoniecz 5y ago
    Argument? I thought that it is certain. https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-fight-to-stop-americans-from-filing-their-taxes-for-free https://www.propublica.org/article/inside-turbotax-20-year-f... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21281411
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Around here taxes are automatically deducted from my income by the employeer. Skatteetaten (≈IRS) then sends us a letter in early spring telling us what we owe or what we will get back, we get a chance to add extra expenses etc and then a final calculation is done and you either get an invoice or a payment, most likely a small payment as taxes payments are typically slightly larger than they need to be. Except if you run a business, then it is slightly more complicated depending on the size of your business, if you have employees etc. I have a small company so I need to report income from the company as well.
- matkoniecz 5y ago
  In Poland taxation rules were not simplified, but tax filings for individuals are automatically generated based on documents supplied by employees. You only need to claim subsidies, select NGO which gets your 1% of tax - or skip that, Tax files itself automatically, If you are in weird situation, you can relatively easily modify it. Tax code is still awful (not sure whether I filed taxes correctly due to my weird situation), but frontend is one of better sites that I have seen. And the best government site that I encountered. Any functional government can setup this.
goatinaboat 5y ago
To play the devil's advocate, that would also mean keeping things inefficient on purpose to avoid job losses. Well... yes? The purpose of life isn't just to enhance shareholder value. Some stuff really is just inefficient of course but a lot of what looks like inefficiency in a pure economic sense is actually what people back in the day would have called living a good and satisfying and meaningful life.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnate.
  - goatinaboat 5y ago
    Imagine if we did that when printing presses came along replacing the scribes or cars came along replacing the coachman, our civilization would stagnat Yes, there are things that have taken genuine inefficiencies out, I wouldn't go back to the days e.g. of standing in a queue at the bank rather than online banking. But an efficient world looks like 996 and I don't think that's actually a good way to live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/996_working_hour_system
Ygg2 5y ago
> I think it's inevitable that we will see some kind of UBI Is it though? I don't think it's impossible we see some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. What happens if you automate everything, and realize you don't need to feed millions of mouths. And, hey, police-military complex is already automated, so just send the drones and let them remove the excess humans.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > some kind of cyberpunk dystopia, where powerful live isolated lives, protected by the police/military, and the rest live in squalor. Even in that scenario, if all useful work is truly automated, there's either still some sort of UBI (just not enough to live comfortably) or the people living in squalor are subsistence farmers eating whatever they can manage to grow in whatever land they can lay claim to.

throw123123123 5y ago

I'm very excited about this reckoning. New grad engineers making 200/300k a year in the US vs Sr 10+ YOE engineers make 40k a year globally will be a wonderful collision. Better get more tech stock when that happens!

throwawaygh 5y ago
New grads don’t make 200k a year. There are some rare exceptions. Top kids from top schools. Very occasionally a quite special kid from a non-top school. It’s not normal. And IMO the majority of 10+ Yoe engineers are actually 1 yoe * 10, or more usually 2 yoe * 5.
- rawtxapp 5y ago
  I think the parent comment is talking about Silicon Valley salaries where the ballpark starting compensation at FAANG is roughly in line with ~180k$ (that was my starting comp many years ago, it probably has increased since). In the Bay, that's the norm, but then again, cost of living is also very high. You don't have to be from a top school, but it does help.
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    Yes, I know. But again, it’s not even close to normal. There are a LOT of engineers outside of the bay and the fangs. It’s a bit like saying that finance pays well in Manhattan. Sure. But most people in the USA who work in finance are making mid/high 5 figures. Wall Street is small.

tarsinge 5y ago

That’s not terrifying, that’s awesome. Economists were saying decades ago that near the year 2000 we shouldn’t working much because of the gains of productivity. We would be free while everything would be automated. But instead we have billionaires confiscating the gains and owning the means of production. Not arguing, just saying automating work isn’t bad and can be good in itself, that’s the society rules that make it so.

specialist 5y ago
Automation implies boosting productivity. Who gets to keep the surplus (profit)? During New Deal and Great Society, Capital shared that surplus with Labor. Since the mid 1970s, not so much. Instead of automating, we could simply eliminate huge swathes of work. Squint a bit, and all the bureaucratic burden (bullshit jobs) just look like very complicated rent seeking.