11 ms·

If this is a function of the spike protein, doesn't that mean the mRNA vaccines cause this effect as well?

TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
The spike protein from the virus bands to ACE2 receptor, messing them up. The vaccine primes our bodies to attack the spike protein, preventing it from binding to ACE2 and thus preventing it from messing up ACE2 receptors.
- ronri19 5y ago
  But the vaccine causes the body to produce spike protein. The CDC emphasizes the spike protein is harmless, but this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    This has been the clever guy hot take for a few days now. Yet millions of people are walking around vaccinated without damage, so....
    - ronri19 5y ago
      We also have 150+ million people around the world who've had the virus walking around without damage. The point is how should we change our recommendations? Are older people or others with certain medical conditions more susceptible to damage? I don't see how shrugging off this new information is reasonable or scientific.
      - podgaj 5y ago
        Start by telling people to take more zinc.
        podgaj 5y ago
        People downvoting nutrition…I don’t get it…or maybe I do. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405457721001431 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240545772... Vitamin D levels had a significant difference between the case and control groups (p = 0.008). Serum calcium and serum zinc levels also had statistically significant differences between the two groups (p < 0.001).
    - tediousdemise 5y ago
      Or walking around damaged, and they don’t know it yet. Didn’t it take us thousands of years to realize lead was poisonous?
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.
        briefcomment 5y ago
        This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.
        rrss 5y ago
        > small enough amount produced forever should be safe does 'forever' modify 'produced' or 'should be safe'? if the former, what produces a small amount of the spike protein forever (continuing, not just a small amount one time)?
        yborg 5y ago
        Why do you think it is produced forever? The mRNA quickly degrades in the body and the injected cells will stop producing the spike protein. That's why there has to be a second injection.
        rzz3 5y ago
        Is there a source? 100% believe you, but due to the conflicting posts I’d love to read the source (and I don’t know what to Google). Thanks!
        5y ago
    - platz 5y ago
      It's a question hacker mindset would ask. What follows from first principles given the headline; it's not an unreasonable question, even if there is no empirical evidence the vaccines are unsafe
  - Alex3917 5y ago
    > this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. Downregulation of ACE-2 causes damage, not the spike protein. The spike protein itself causes downregulation, but not enough to cause damage.
  - retrac 5y ago
    It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and the spike protein unit extract ones, all involve getting some of the spike protein either made in the cells, or introduce it directly.
    - beagle3 5y ago
      Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all coming out in the last month) show is that the vaccine outcome (specific proteins) that were assumed to be inert and only prime the immune system against the virus, are actually active and damaging. That's a big difference -- and the question of whether it makes sense to vaccinate needs to rely on actual science, not "it's a vaccine so must be good and safe" ideology. It also depends on specific attributes (e.g. age, obesity, etc.) There's an Israeli study showing myocarditis at a rate of 1:20,000 for the 16-30 age bracket, with 1:100,000 overall (all pfizer)[0] ; the US Army stats are 1:250,000 (for a mix of JNJ,Pfizer.Moderna) but I didn't find age distribution - and these are exceptionally lean and fit individuals, compared to the general population.[1] That's just myocarditis ; it it related to what's described in this paper? I don't know. Are there any other issues? I don't know. And generally speaking, no one else does either. But because everyone gets vaccinated, we require exceptional proofs of safety. Or at least, did before 2020. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-between-pfizer-shot-and-heart-problem-in-men-under-30/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-betwe... [1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-tracking-14-cases-of-heart-inflammation-troops-after-covid-19-shots.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-trac...
      - 5y ago
  - fnordpiglet 5y ago
    The vaccine instructs cells to produce a piece of protein from the spike. There’s no such thing as “a” spike protein, the spike is a structure of proteins that enable a lot of functions for the virus. They choose a piece of protein from the structure that’s antigenic then encode the mRNA to produce that. The mRNA is delivered into the cell by the lipid transport and the cell picks up the instruction and produces the antigenic protein fragment. Your immune system responds as expected and attacks the antigen carrying things - existing cells included. The inoculated mRNA is quickly broken down because mRNA is a standard process in cell function. Unless the effect observed is due to the antigen the vaccine produces then you wouldn’t expect to see the same behavior in vaccinated humans as they saw experimentally with a full virus, even if some part or the full assembly of the spike is a cause for cellular damage.
    - wpasc 5y ago
      From the wikipedia for Pfizer, the vaccine supposedly produces a full length spike protein [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...
      - yborg 5y ago
        No. From that link "...two proline substitutions (K986P and V987P, designated "2P") that cause the spike to adopt a prefusion-stabilized conformation reducing the membrane fusion ability, increasing expression and stimulating neutralizing antibodies..." It's a modified version of the spike protein designed as an antibody target, not to identically replicate the spike protein function.
  - karmicthreat 5y ago
    Your body is non-stop taking damage every day. Its when the body can't compensate fast enough that its a problem. The load from an mRNA vaccine is miniscule compared to severe, or moderate covid.
  - lamontcg 5y ago
    The vaccine causes a relatively tiny amount of spike to be produced compared with a raging infection. A little bit of spike trains your body to identify it and neutralize it. A whole lot of spike is toxic to your organs and damages them. To downregulate ACE2 you need a whole lot of receptor activation and a lot of ligands floating around in your system binding to it to cause that. The dose of spike protein matters.
    - podgaj 5y ago
      To downregulate ACE2 all you need is a bad enough zinc deficiency.
- podgaj 5y ago
  No idea why this is being downvoted. This is exactly what happens. But the virus destroys ACE2 (not the "reception because there is no ACE2 receptor. ACE2 is an enzyme).
rolph 5y ago
this is a relevent question, the difference between the two cases, is that the virus is mobile and has opportunity to travel through the entire endothelial tissue structure, interacting with many molecular types and situations the vaccine causes a small volume of stationary cells in the muscle mass of the shoulder to express the S protien on the surface, staying in place but providing signal to the immune system [adndm] keep in mind the virus replicates, inside you, the vaccine doesnt, and the vaccine stays where you put it, it doesnt spread out everywhere that has a receptor
- _greim_ 5y ago
  Interesting. Is there a significant difference in total number of viral particles versus vaccine particles your cells are exposed to, over the course of the infection/vaccination?
  - rolph 5y ago
    in general terms yes, there is no real hard number on minimal number of viral particles required to result in infection, its most likely a small number compared to the number of vaccine particles in a dosage. assuming 30 micrograms dosage in a volume of 300 microliters that is a very large number of particles in one place. this is not a lot of vaccine, but this [30micrograms] would be quite a lot of viral particles. something to keep in mind is the fuzz of biological systems. molecular processes can have more than one outcome but there is a general bias toward an overall stability, so when a vaccine is produced, there is a certain amount of fuzz to it in the form of particles that dont assemble correctly or ar otherwise non desireable, processing the vaccine keeps these characters to a minimum. the same thing happens to the virus, the fuzz portion being in someway unable to replicate or enter a cell, just out of the way the fuzzy dice roll. so its hard to pin down a number of minimally effective dose for either case, however virus amplifies past the original dose, and spreads to mutiple locations, signaling any molecular system that can be bound to, in this case vast preference being given to ACE-2, resulting in perturbation of the RAS system and the now stereotypic covid symptoms so viral particles amplify over time, and over a spatial distribution, vaccine particles stay in site and dont replicate and dont migrate to interact with other cells in the tissue or throughout the body.
busyant 5y ago
This is a legitimate question, so I don't know why it's being downvoted. Especially given the statement in the abstract of the paper that says, "We show here that S protein alone can damage vascular endothelial cells (ECs) in vitro and in vivo...." That being said, other people on this thread have provided reasonable mechanistic explanations as to why the vaccines would not have this effect, but I will also add we have _empirical_ evidence that the vaccine does not impair endothelial function (or at least it is extremely rare) because we have millions of people who have received the vaccine without impaired endothelial function.
- dcow 5y ago
  My partner developed inflammation (resembling gottron papules) on her knuckles a few weeks after receiving the first moderna dose. She now (few days later) has developed a shoulder rash where the vaccine was injected. It’s very curious.
  - lc9er 5y ago
    My spouse, who suffers from an autoimmune disorder, suffered similar symptoms. Severe enough that she won’t be able to get the second dose. My understanding (from her doc) is that this is a known, but uncommon side effect for people with autoimmune conditions.
    - treeman79 5y ago
      Does get the uncommon side effects of medication much? Have an autoimmune, and I get most of the rare side effects of medications.
      - lc9er 5y ago
        Constantly. Her list of banned medications is huge. Each time she’s prescribed a medication, she has to decide if the “rare side effects” are worth risking or are worse than going untreated.
    - podgaj 5y ago
hourislate 5y ago
Disclaimer: I am not qualified to interpret this study and have no experience in this field. So the study indicates that the Spike Protein binds to ACE2 that is found in the membranes of cells located in the lungs, arteries, heart, kidney, and intestines, and down regulates them to the point where it damages your mitochondria in those organs. So according to the research they did, it's not just the virus that can hurt you but the mechanism (Spike Protein) the virus uses to attach to your cells and replicate that can cause this damage. It is likely that the vaccine itself which holds the mRNA and not the actual Spike Protein or Virus (just the instructions on how to make the Spike Protein) is administered in a intramuscular area of the body (Shoulder Area), never able to live long enough (mRNA dies off quickly) to enter these areas where ACE2 is found (Heart, Lungs, Kidneys, etc). The muscle tissue/cells in the upper arm create some Spike Protein and your immune system basically say WTF is that and kills it long before it can ever reach these organs or areas of the body. The real Virus typically enters the body through the nose and mouth and heads directly into the sinuses and can spread very quickly to lungs and then move on from there into other organs. If you're someone who is one of the folks (Metabolic Disease, severe autoimmune dysfunction) who might be susceptible to what this study suggests, the vaccine is the way to go since it might give you a better chance to avoid the negative outcome from the Spike Protein affecting ACE2 and then damaging the mitochondria in your Organs cells.
- molticrystal 5y ago
  >is administered in a intramuscular area of the body (Shoulder Area), never able to live long enough (mRNA dies off quickly) to enter these areas where ACE2 is found (Heart, Lungs, Kidneys, etc) We know to where it typically tends to go now, "the muscle tissue at the site of injection, the lymphatic tissue downstream in your armpit on that side, your spleen, and (for the first day or two) your liver. " [0] [0]https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/21/mrna-vaccines-what-happens https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/21/mr...
  - unanswered 5y ago
    The funny thing is that list of places the mRNA gets to does not have any overlap with my list of "places in my body where I want SARS-CoV-2 spike protein".
tmabraham 5y ago
A good question, one of the paper's authors had the following responses on Twitter: https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/1388717008544419843 https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/13887170085444198... https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/1388729151289315330 https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/13887291512893153...
- karaterobot 5y ago
  First tweet: i’m going to give a full response asap. but quickly for the record: 1) the (relatively) small amount of spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccine would not be nearly enough to do any damage 2) i happily got the mRNA vaccine, FWIW 3) i encourage everyone to get it Second tweet: a couple prelim responses to anti-vaxxers misrepresenting these findings (here: https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/1388717008544419843?s=21). tl;dr: mRNA vaccine is waaaaay safer than COVID19 and everyone should get it - I did and everyone in my family did as well! Our paper just shows this disease really sucks.
gdubs 5y ago
Just this morning I was reading this paper [1] which is looking at the effects of the spike protein alone on pulmonary function - it’s a pretty straightforward read once you get beyond the acronyms: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/1/36/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/1/36/htm
stjohnswarts 5y ago
Probably but it's not like they can increase exponentially in number. It's as much about the viral load as the viral type. It's not an on or off switch.

The spike protein from the virus bands to ACE2 receptor, messing them up. The vaccine primes our bodies to attack the spike protein, preventing it from binding to ACE2 and thus preventing it from messing up ACE2 receptors.

ronri19 5y ago
But the vaccine causes the body to produce spike protein. The CDC emphasizes the spike protein is harmless, but this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/mrna.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different...
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  This has been the clever guy hot take for a few days now. Yet millions of people are walking around vaccinated without damage, so....
  - ronri19 5y ago
    We also have 150+ million people around the world who've had the virus walking around without damage. The point is how should we change our recommendations? Are older people or others with certain medical conditions more susceptible to damage? I don't see how shrugging off this new information is reasonable or scientific.
    - podgaj 5y ago
      Start by telling people to take more zinc.
      - podgaj 5y ago
        People downvoting nutrition…I don’t get it…or maybe I do. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405457721001431 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S240545772... Vitamin D levels had a significant difference between the case and control groups (p = 0.008). Serum calcium and serum zinc levels also had statistically significant differences between the two groups (p < 0.001).
  - tediousdemise 5y ago
    Or walking around damaged, and they don’t know it yet. Didn’t it take us thousands of years to realize lead was poisonous?
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      It didn't. Western medicine new lead was poisonous dating back at least to the second century BCE. What changed was the belief that only acute lead exposure could cause poisoning... We came to understand the mechanisms by which chronic exposure causes buildup and poisoning over a long term.
      - briefcomment 5y ago
        This makes the analogy even more appropriate. We know the spike protein is harmful in some amount, but we think a small enough amount produced forever should be safe. Maybe we'll learn otherwise.
        rrss 5y ago
        > small enough amount produced forever should be safe does 'forever' modify 'produced' or 'should be safe'? if the former, what produces a small amount of the spike protein forever (continuing, not just a small amount one time)?
        yborg 5y ago
        Why do you think it is produced forever? The mRNA quickly degrades in the body and the injected cells will stop producing the spike protein. That's why there has to be a second injection.
        rzz3 5y ago
        Is there a source? 100% believe you, but due to the conflicting posts I’d love to read the source (and I don’t know what to Google). Thanks!
        5y ago
  - platz 5y ago
    It's a question hacker mindset would ask. What follows from first principles given the headline; it's not an unreasonable question, even if there is no empirical evidence the vaccines are unsafe
- Alex3917 5y ago
  > this new research finds that the spike protein itself can cause damage. Downregulation of ACE-2 causes damage, not the spike protein. The spike protein itself causes downregulation, but not enough to cause damage.
- retrac 5y ago
  It causes the body to produce it in a limited, fixed quantity in proportion to the number of viable RNA strands that make it into a cell, largely localized at the injection site. Just a guess but this probably means its risk is extremely limited. The wild virus causes this protein to be produced without check. It wouldn't just be the mRNA vaccines, anyway. The viral vector ones, as well as the inactivated virus, and the spike protein unit extract ones, all involve getting some of the spike protein either made in the cells, or introduce it directly.
  - beagle3 5y ago
    Indeed. But it's a nontrivial question of numbers. The vaccine has to be orders of magnitude safer than the virus, because (essentially) everyone will get the vaccine, but only some will get the disease. E.g. it might be harmful to vaccinate people in New Zealand and Australia at this point, because for now they cannot get the virus. What these papers (there are 3 independent ones showing very similar results, all coming out in the last month) show is that the vaccine outcome (specific proteins) that were assumed to be inert and only prime the immune system against the virus, are actually active and damaging. That's a big difference -- and the question of whether it makes sense to vaccinate needs to rely on actual science, not "it's a vaccine so must be good and safe" ideology. It also depends on specific attributes (e.g. age, obesity, etc.) There's an Israeli study showing myocarditis at a rate of 1:20,000 for the 16-30 age bracket, with 1:100,000 overall (all pfizer)[0] ; the US Army stats are 1:250,000 (for a mix of JNJ,Pfizer.Moderna) but I didn't find age distribution - and these are exceptionally lean and fit individuals, compared to the general population.[1] That's just myocarditis ; it it related to what's described in this paper? I don't know. Are there any other issues? I don't know. And generally speaking, no one else does either. But because everyone gets vaccinated, we require exceptional proofs of safety. Or at least, did before 2020. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-between-pfizer-shot-and-heart-problem-in-men-under-30/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-said-probing-link-betwe... [1] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-tracking-14-cases-of-heart-inflammation-troops-after-covid-19-shots.html https://www.military.com/daily-news/2021/04/26/pentagon-trac...
    - 5y ago
- fnordpiglet 5y ago
  The vaccine instructs cells to produce a piece of protein from the spike. There’s no such thing as “a” spike protein, the spike is a structure of proteins that enable a lot of functions for the virus. They choose a piece of protein from the structure that’s antigenic then encode the mRNA to produce that. The mRNA is delivered into the cell by the lipid transport and the cell picks up the instruction and produces the antigenic protein fragment. Your immune system responds as expected and attacks the antigen carrying things - existing cells included. The inoculated mRNA is quickly broken down because mRNA is a standard process in cell function. Unless the effect observed is due to the antigen the vaccine produces then you wouldn’t expect to see the same behavior in vaccinated humans as they saw experimentally with a full virus, even if some part or the full assembly of the spike is a cause for cellular damage.
  - wpasc 5y ago
    From the wikipedia for Pfizer, the vaccine supposedly produces a full length spike protein [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-19_vaccine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizer%E2%80%93BioNTech_COVID-...
    - yborg 5y ago
      No. From that link "...two proline substitutions (K986P and V987P, designated "2P") that cause the spike to adopt a prefusion-stabilized conformation reducing the membrane fusion ability, increasing expression and stimulating neutralizing antibodies..." It's a modified version of the spike protein designed as an antibody target, not to identically replicate the spike protein function.
- karmicthreat 5y ago
  Your body is non-stop taking damage every day. Its when the body can't compensate fast enough that its a problem. The load from an mRNA vaccine is miniscule compared to severe, or moderate covid.
- lamontcg 5y ago
  The vaccine causes a relatively tiny amount of spike to be produced compared with a raging infection. A little bit of spike trains your body to identify it and neutralize it. A whole lot of spike is toxic to your organs and damages them. To downregulate ACE2 you need a whole lot of receptor activation and a lot of ligands floating around in your system binding to it to cause that. The dose of spike protein matters.
  - podgaj 5y ago
    To downregulate ACE2 all you need is a bad enough zinc deficiency.
podgaj 5y ago
No idea why this is being downvoted. This is exactly what happens. But the virus destroys ACE2 (not the "reception because there is no ACE2 receptor. ACE2 is an enzyme).

rolph 5y ago

this is a relevent question, the difference between the two cases, is that the virus is mobile and has opportunity to travel through the entire endothelial tissue structure, interacting with many molecular types and situations the vaccine causes a small volume of stationary cells in the muscle mass of the shoulder to express the S protien on the surface, staying in place but providing signal to the immune system [adndm] keep in mind the virus replicates, inside you, the vaccine doesnt, and the vaccine stays where you put it, it doesnt spread out everywhere that has a receptor

_greim_ 5y ago
Interesting. Is there a significant difference in total number of viral particles versus vaccine particles your cells are exposed to, over the course of the infection/vaccination?
- rolph 5y ago
  in general terms yes, there is no real hard number on minimal number of viral particles required to result in infection, its most likely a small number compared to the number of vaccine particles in a dosage. assuming 30 micrograms dosage in a volume of 300 microliters that is a very large number of particles in one place. this is not a lot of vaccine, but this [30micrograms] would be quite a lot of viral particles. something to keep in mind is the fuzz of biological systems. molecular processes can have more than one outcome but there is a general bias toward an overall stability, so when a vaccine is produced, there is a certain amount of fuzz to it in the form of particles that dont assemble correctly or ar otherwise non desireable, processing the vaccine keeps these characters to a minimum. the same thing happens to the virus, the fuzz portion being in someway unable to replicate or enter a cell, just out of the way the fuzzy dice roll. so its hard to pin down a number of minimally effective dose for either case, however virus amplifies past the original dose, and spreads to mutiple locations, signaling any molecular system that can be bound to, in this case vast preference being given to ACE-2, resulting in perturbation of the RAS system and the now stereotypic covid symptoms so viral particles amplify over time, and over a spatial distribution, vaccine particles stay in site and dont replicate and dont migrate to interact with other cells in the tissue or throughout the body.

busyant 5y ago

This is a legitimate question, so I don't know why it's being downvoted. Especially given the statement in the abstract of the paper that says, "We show here that S protein alone can damage vascular endothelial cells (ECs) in vitro and in vivo...." That being said, other people on this thread have provided reasonable mechanistic explanations as to why the vaccines would not have this effect, but I will also add we have _empirical_ evidence that the vaccine does not impair endothelial function (or at least it is extremely rare) because we have millions of people who have received the vaccine without impaired endothelial function.

dcow 5y ago
My partner developed inflammation (resembling gottron papules) on her knuckles a few weeks after receiving the first moderna dose. She now (few days later) has developed a shoulder rash where the vaccine was injected. It’s very curious.
- lc9er 5y ago
  My spouse, who suffers from an autoimmune disorder, suffered similar symptoms. Severe enough that she won’t be able to get the second dose. My understanding (from her doc) is that this is a known, but uncommon side effect for people with autoimmune conditions.
  - treeman79 5y ago
    Does get the uncommon side effects of medication much? Have an autoimmune, and I get most of the rare side effects of medications.
    - lc9er 5y ago
      Constantly. Her list of banned medications is huge. Each time she’s prescribed a medication, she has to decide if the “rare side effects” are worth risking or are worse than going untreated.
  - podgaj 5y ago

hourislate 5y ago

Disclaimer: I am not qualified to interpret this study and have no experience in this field. So the study indicates that the Spike Protein binds to ACE2 that is found in the membranes of cells located in the lungs, arteries, heart, kidney, and intestines, and down regulates them to the point where it damages your mitochondria in those organs. So according to the research they did, it's not just the virus that can hurt you but the mechanism (Spike Protein) the virus uses to attach to your cells and replicate that can cause this damage. It is likely that the vaccine itself which holds the mRNA and not the actual Spike Protein or Virus (just the instructions on how to make the Spike Protein) is administered in a intramuscular area of the body (Shoulder Area), never able to live long enough (mRNA dies off quickly) to enter these areas where ACE2 is found (Heart, Lungs, Kidneys, etc). The muscle tissue/cells in the upper arm create some Spike Protein and your immune system basically say WTF is that and kills it long before it can ever reach these organs or areas of the body. The real Virus typically enters the body through the nose and mouth and heads directly into the sinuses and can spread very quickly to lungs and then move on from there into other organs. If you're someone who is one of the folks (Metabolic Disease, severe autoimmune dysfunction) who might be susceptible to what this study suggests, the vaccine is the way to go since it might give you a better chance to avoid the negative outcome from the Spike Protein affecting ACE2 and then damaging the mitochondria in your Organs cells.

molticrystal 5y ago
>is administered in a intramuscular area of the body (Shoulder Area), never able to live long enough (mRNA dies off quickly) to enter these areas where ACE2 is found (Heart, Lungs, Kidneys, etc) We know to where it typically tends to go now, "the muscle tissue at the site of injection, the lymphatic tissue downstream in your armpit on that side, your spleen, and (for the first day or two) your liver. " [0] [0]https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/21/mrna-vaccines-what-happens https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/01/21/mr...
- unanswered 5y ago
  The funny thing is that list of places the mRNA gets to does not have any overlap with my list of "places in my body where I want SARS-CoV-2 spike protein".

tmabraham 5y ago

A good question, one of the paper's authors had the following responses on Twitter: https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/1388717008544419843 https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/13887170085444198... https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/1388729151289315330 https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/13887291512893153...

karaterobot 5y ago
First tweet: i’m going to give a full response asap. but quickly for the record: 1) the (relatively) small amount of spike protein produced by the mRNA vaccine would not be nearly enough to do any damage 2) i happily got the mRNA vaccine, FWIW 3) i encourage everyone to get it Second tweet: a couple prelim responses to anti-vaxxers misrepresenting these findings (here: https://twitter.com/manorlaboratory/status/1388717008544419843?s=21). tl;dr: mRNA vaccine is waaaaay safer than COVID19 and everyone should get it - I did and everyone in my family did as well! Our paper just shows this disease really sucks.

gdubs 5y ago

Just this morning I was reading this paper [1] which is looking at the effects of the spike protein alone on pulmonary function - it’s a pretty straightforward read once you get beyond the acronyms: https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/1/36/htm https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/9/1/36/htm

stjohnswarts 5y ago

Probably but it's not like they can increase exponentially in number. It's as much about the viral load as the viral type. It's not an on or off switch.