10 ms·

The loneliness of the modern office team member

81 points by 0-_-0 5y ago

PeterSmit 5y ago
Non-paywall link?
rojeee 5y ago
https://archive.is/Y7IFZ https://archive.is/Y7IFZ
SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them.
- beforeolives 5y ago
  Think of it from the opposite direction - a requirement for forming and maintaing friendships is that you get to spend time with someone and interact with them on a regular basis. That makes work one of the most likely places to form friendships for adults.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    I guess the assumed expiration date makes it harder for me to accept that I should make the effort to become friends.
    - lovegoblin 5y ago
      That's why you become friends: so that you stay in touch after the "expiration date."
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? Not always, and not for everyone. > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. That attitude will directly lead to superficial relationships. Many people would like some non-superficial social connection to at least some of the people who they spend a large fraction of their days with, and seeking and maintaining some relationships like that is probably healthier, too.
  - tenebrisalietum 5y ago
    I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      > I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter. I don't know where your comment came from, because in no way did I suggest that anyone should try to be friends with everyone they meet.
- bartread 5y ago
  But that's true of a lot of life isn't it? You get very little choice who you go to school with, and yet many people make lifelong friends at school. Even as I traverse middle age I'm still good friends with half a dozen people I went to school with, and on friendly speaking terms with at least a couple of dozen more. Work does seem different though: relationships often don't hold in the same way. I stay in touch with relatively few people out of the hundreds or (low) thousands I've worked with over the years. The vast majority of them are from one company where I worked for nearly 10 years, and most of them joined in the first 3 or 4 years of that 10 or were already there when I started. I suspect a lot of it boils down to the amount of "quality" time you spent together - directly interacting and sharing experiences - versus those you swap in and out with.
  - eplanit 5y ago
    True, and it depends on whether you've geographically moved over the years. I found that (unfortunately) ends friendships that would/could have developed.
  - dazc 5y ago
    Sometimes the only thing in common you have is where you work and this isn't enough to keep the realtionship going after they have left. With real friends you'll have some other common experiences that help maintain the bond. So, yes, the amount of quality time spent together out of a forced situation, such as sharing office space, is a big factor.
- jollybean 5y ago
  Just because you're not friends doesn't mean the relationships are 'superficial'. I really enjoy the company of my work colleagues. Especially in a business setting, where it's not all 'heads down work', I think it's kind of important actually. Professionalism is resonant, being around other people lifts you up, you learn from them, are energized, hopefully in mostly positive ways. For Engineering work ... I'm worried that young folks won't have the opportunity for good mentors.
  - sdevonoes 5y ago
    Well, perhaps I'm in the minority group but the best mentors I have had are: - W. Richard Stevens - Andrew S. Tanenbaum - Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie - ... Yes, I'm talking about books :)
    - ducharmdev 5y ago
      Mentors can give you feedback that books can't, though. No matter how good a person is at self-reflection, you simply can't perceive yourself outside of your own perspective. Not trying to knock reading of course, but it's no replacement for a good mentor.
      - sdevonoes 5y ago
        Fair enough. I just don't think one can find good mentors willing to help in normal jobs/companies. Perhaps in FAANGs yeah, but 99% of us, devs, do not work for FAANGs.
        ducharmdev 5y ago
        As one of those devs in the 99%, I get that. But if you're okay with getting outside your comfort zone a bit, you can still find people to (at least informally) mentor you throughout your career. For example, I volunteer as a mentor for Code Louisville, and we actively encourage students to stay in touch even after the program when it comes to job hunting, programming questions, etc. I've also managed to find experienced devs for myself through local dev meetups, but have also had luck just messaging people on Linkedin. Sure, not all devs are going to be willing, but a lot of people respond well to basic curiosity and humility.
- bonoboTP 5y ago
  This kind of "anonymous" work is relatively recent. It's not how humans lived and worked for the majority of our existence. Before the industrial revolution, the vast majority of people worked in agriculture and most definitely knew who they were working with: their family, extended family and neighbors. Similarly, women were socializing while weaving clothes etc. This atomized "biorobot" view of the employee is quite new and doesn't seem very healthy.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    Yeah, given the shift to strangers, I don't know why anyone would think it's strange that we aren't certain to make friends with these people.
  - mLuby 5y ago
    Perhaps because until recently a "career" meant working for one company for 35 years, likely in the same city. With that kind of stability, long-term friendships can blossom. It's harder if you're changing companies every 2-3 years and cities every 5-6 (as seems common enough in Tech at least). Digital nomads are the vanguard—look to them to see what works and what doesn't.
- amelius 5y ago
  This is why company drinks and company outings are always so weird.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    'Oh look, people I work with every day and do my best to be professional in front of now want me to drink in front of them on my day off. This is going to be fun."
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. False dichotomy. Building relationships and earning a living aren't mutually exclusive. Building healthy, lasting relationships with your peers isn't necessarily required to get a job done, but it certainly makes it more enjoyable. Of course not everyone is going to be interested in authentic relationships at work, but that doesn't mean that nobody wants to be friends at the office. If you can only view your work peers as pure business interactions, you're missing out.
  - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
    Do you find you're still friends with a lot of people you worked with at your previous positions?
    - bitbuilder 5y ago
      As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, I can say that literally all of my close friends at this point in life were previous coworkers. Especially if you relocate away from your hometown for a job, I'm not sure why that would be surprising to anyone. You spend at least 8 hours a day with these people, it only makes sense you'd eventually build some connections with them. And as the parent post points out, it certainly makes the days more enjoyable when you've built healthy relationships with your peers. And come to think of it, most people 30+ I know seem to have friend groups of almost exclusively current or former coworkers. I don't think I'm by any means unique.
      - jghn 5y ago
        It's funny, I thought this was going the exact opposite direction when I read "As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years". As another middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, that describes none of the people I know in my age group. Sure, some of us have actual friends that were coworkers, but it's one or two people and somewhat tangential friendship. If it were just you & I comparing our individual anecdata I'd have chalked it up to that, but this feels like perhaps there's something more going on. I suppose one explanation is that people who form close bonds with coworkers are going to be more likely to hanging out with others who form close bonds with coworkers and vice versa?
- lovegoblin 5y ago
  > I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. Maybe you don't miss them because you never talked to them.
emmap21 5y ago
Remote work fits to a small close-knitted team less than 5 people. More than that, there is so much that it's hard to fill.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Depends who you ask. I have no problem with it, and I suspect plenty of others feel the same way.
tenebrisalietum 5y ago
If A can fire B or unilaterally terminate the relationship, for any reason at any time, and B needs A's money/resources, then the relationship between A and B will always be superficial, and B will do non-genuine things so A doesn't fire B.
- scarface74 5y ago
  I made that mistake early in my career thinking managers were my friends. I have kept in touch with former managers and tried to meet them for lunch at least once or twice a year pre Covid.
- JoeAltmaier 5y ago
  Maybe not. I've always been frank with my 'managers'. I tell them "We both work for the company. I get support from you for information and resources. Other than that, try to stay out of my way?" As a more senior guy it works for me. Not for everybody, I get that. But its a way healthier relationship. Can they fire me? Sure. But I can get work again the next day. So go ahead, threaten and bluster manager guy. I've more than once picked up my coat and said "Are we done here?"
  - tenebrisalietum 5y ago
    Yep, you've solved the problem by turning "unilateral" into "bilateral" which is preferable. We can say the method in which you solved it by decreasing the social "distance" or "context" between you and who you report to--if you are spectacular at your job and working in a field where the labor balance is in your favor, it's easy. Other possible and less optimal strategies include having a preexisting personal relationship/friendship, being related to your boss, acquiring information or other blackmail, and/or being perceived as able to successfully win a lawsuit.
wccrawford 5y ago
I'm quite an introvert. What I've found is that I tend to try to friends with my co-workers because I'm around them constantly. And I don't try to make friends anywhere else. Lately, I've been realizing that even though my coworkers like me, and I like them, they are not really my friends. Nobody who leaves the company stays in touch with me. I almost never have contact with them away from work. I share my hobby stuff with them during work hours, and they seem to enjoy hearing about it and engage with me, but none of them would actually want to join me in those hobbies away from work. This has me thinking that I should spend less time trying to engage with them, and more time trying to find local groups that share those hobbies. So, contrary to the article, I don't think "the loneliness of the modern office team member" is actually a problem. I think it's a big hint that they need to seek relationships outside of work instead.
- metalliqaz 5y ago
  Man, I totally could have written this. The big problem is that whole "finding local groups" thing. That just... doesn't happen. Maybe if I lived in a city, but not in the 'burbs. Not when you have a full time job and kids.
  - metalliqaz 5y ago
    follow up: And you know what the crazy thing is? I just don't care about stuff like sports, but I'd happily go to a game if I liked the people I was with, for the the chance to hang out. But omg I just don't care about so many of the things that seem to bring people together. That's the curse of the mild introvert, I guess.
  - the_only_law 5y ago
    Meetup gets thrown around as cliche advice for this sort of things, but in the last city I lived, majority of meetups were either very demographic specific (i.e. something like 60+, or women’s business) or fronts for MLM and other scams.
    - metalliqaz 5y ago
wayoutthere 5y ago
I definitely felt this earlier in my career. The solution for me was to stop looking to work to fill a need for purpose, and to start some creative hobbies as an outlet. This naturally got me meeting other people with similar interests. Work is work. Life is life. Personally I need boundaries and feel my life is healthier for it.
antattack 5y ago
The biggest reason for shallow work relationships is high turnover.
4ggr0 5y ago
EDIT: Should've looked at all the comments first - https://archive.is/Y7IFZ https://archive.is/Y7IFZ Someone has a non-paywalled link? Sounds like a very interesting topic.
WhompingWindows 5y ago
Alternative viewpoint: Everyone is hyper-stimulated by modern entertainment and lovable hobbies, therefore making friends at work is becoming harder to do because we're all bifurcated in our free time. Our interests used to be more basic, more shared, our community was tighter knit. Now, I feel the Internet and consumerism has allowed a massive blossoming of new hobbies, DIY, go it your own way, hang out by yourself activities. Either that, or something like online gaming, where you're finding a digital community. Especially during the pandemic, I became very used to hanging out with only my partner, and I think our bubble has amplified my introverted habits.
- pkdpic_y9k 5y ago
  Thats a really good point.
- wussboy 5y ago
  I think there's a lot of truth in your comment. I mentioned this elsewhere but as we hang out with the same people, our interests begin to align. This is what has always happened in the past and will hopefully happen again once we've realized that the Internet is death to sociality.
  - cauliflower2718 5y ago
    Yes! I have found this to happen a over lockdown with my housemates. Not surprisingly, I recommend communal living.
- tachyonbeam 5y ago
  The pandemic is a bit different from what was before because we're not really given a choice. That being said, I agree, and I think it's not just hobbies. If you think about music, Spotify exposes people to much wider array of choices than what was there before. It used to be that people had a common cultural thread through the radio and television. Now, you can find your own niche community online, and listen to very niche music customized to your very specific preferences on Spotify. Even porn is getting increasingly niche. I find that often, even friends who like similar music genres to mine don't really appreciate tunes I share with them, because everyone has diverged so much. Politics are getting super divisive too, with no tolerance for different viewpoints. I'm not sure what's the antidote to that. I do think that in many ways, technology is driving people apart, and I'm afraid we're headed the way of Japan (hikikomori). I think some people will choose to remain socially active and others will withdraw. At some level, interacting with other human beings is challenging, it takes effort, you have to want to do it.
NikolaeVarius 5y ago
Im perfectly fine being lonely at work. Go away
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
I've got contacts with people I worked with 30 years ago. We have a bi-weekly Zoom chat for instance. Lasts for hours. Lots of fun. Friends? Sure, I've offered to come take care of them when they're having surgery, or invited to stay when the spouse is making them sleep on the couch. Even sent money a time or two when they're between jobs. Maybe its different nowadays. But coworkers used to be easy to make friends with.
msteffen 5y ago
Seems like a lot of comments are discussing how to address loneliness, so I'll share one tactic I've learned: you have to host. Everybody wants to join a meetup or club or whatever, but if you organize the event(s), and then invite people you like (from work or your kids' friends' parents) then you get the event you want and you strengthen those friendships. If you can make it happen consistently, those relationships can get quite strong over a few years, plus your friends will invite their friends and it gets better over time. The only downside is having to do event planning: clean your house (or pick a venue: park, hackerspace, church, cafe, gym, clubhouse if your apartment complex has one), email/text invitations, plan food, etc. This is a skill, though, and you get better with practice. (Edit: obviously rona makes this harder but e.g. my wife and I have a zoom call we do most mornings where we do a workout video and hang out for ~10-15 minutes. It's a lot better than nothing!)
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "The only downside is having to do event planning: clean your house (or pick a venue: park, hackerspace, church, cafe, gym, clubhouse if your apartment complex has one), email/text invitations, plan food, etc. This is a skill, though, and you get better with practice." Not only is it a skill, but it's very difficult to make that sort of effort when you are depressed, which many lonely people are.
  - msteffen 5y ago
    > Not only is it a skill, but it's very difficult to make that sort of effort when you are depressed, which many lonely people are. It's true. TBH to the extent I've done/helped with it, I've learned more about making it easy than doing it well. The easiest options I know about: - hike (you literally just need to agree on a trail and a time. People can bring their own food, or you can do it in the afternoon so it doesn't overlap with a meal) - hang out in a park/at the beach. Almost as easy as a hike but you do need food. This can just be pizza and drinks. Bring a barbecue and a cooler of (veggie) burgers/hot dogs, drinks, chips and dip if you want to get fancy - game night: almost the same as the park but you'd do it in your house (or apartment clubhouse). Slightly more clean-up, but food can be very easy and low-key (takeout, pizza, salad). This is easy to do regularly, too, and you can change the games depending on who's there, so it's got broad appeal. Board games are an obvious classic, and/or people can bring laptops, or you can set up a projector and an xbox. My roommates did this for years and we probably had over a hundred different guests at one point or another. People started bringing their own TVs and xboxes - dinner party/potluck: like game night, but for a group that likes to cook this can be super fun. You don't actually have to make much because there are N dishes, so you eat a 1/N portion of each. Also, if you do it regularly, sometimes everyone agrees they're too tired to cook and you just all go in on takeout and drinks, which is fun too. - group workouts: just need a gym and a time (or a park, you can do an outdoor workout) - meet at a bar: not even really hosting, but if you suggest it and get everyone to agree on a time, it actually is hosting (Finally: IME people are happy to venmo you for food if you ask in advance. Especially for recurring events this can be good to do, so that hosting stays fun for you)
deleted_account 5y ago
FEI, this is a Financial Times summary of an Insead Knowledge adaptation of an MIT Sloan Management article. Go here if you want to read the source: https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/are-your-team-members-lonely/ https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/are-your-team-members-lo...
fungiblecog 5y ago
In my experience the office is a lonely place because it is completely fake. Everyone has to pretend to care, pretend they're making awesome progress and pretend they don't hate management. I'm a contractor precisely because it allows me to move around and avoid becoming entrenched in the fakery.

81 points by 0-_-0 5y ago

PeterSmit 5y ago

Non-paywall link?

rojeee 5y ago

https://archive.is/Y7IFZ https://archive.is/Y7IFZ

SketchySeaBeast 5y ago

Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them.

beforeolives 5y ago
Think of it from the opposite direction - a requirement for forming and maintaing friendships is that you get to spend time with someone and interact with them on a regular basis. That makes work one of the most likely places to form friendships for adults.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  I guess the assumed expiration date makes it harder for me to accept that I should make the effort to become friends.
  - lovegoblin 5y ago
    That's why you become friends: so that you stay in touch after the "expiration date."
tablespoon 5y ago
> Haven't our work relationships always been superficial? Not always, and not for everyone. > I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. If I find a friend along the way that's great, but I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. That attitude will directly lead to superficial relationships. Many people would like some non-superficial social connection to at least some of the people who they spend a large fraction of their days with, and seeking and maintaining some relationships like that is probably healthier, too.
- tenebrisalietum 5y ago
  I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > I don't necessarily want a non-professional relationship with everyone I encounter. I don't know where your comment came from, because in no way did I suggest that anyone should try to be friends with everyone they meet.
bartread 5y ago
But that's true of a lot of life isn't it? You get very little choice who you go to school with, and yet many people make lifelong friends at school. Even as I traverse middle age I'm still good friends with half a dozen people I went to school with, and on friendly speaking terms with at least a couple of dozen more. Work does seem different though: relationships often don't hold in the same way. I stay in touch with relatively few people out of the hundreds or (low) thousands I've worked with over the years. The vast majority of them are from one company where I worked for nearly 10 years, and most of them joined in the first 3 or 4 years of that 10 or were already there when I started. I suspect a lot of it boils down to the amount of "quality" time you spent together - directly interacting and sharing experiences - versus those you swap in and out with.
- eplanit 5y ago
  True, and it depends on whether you've geographically moved over the years. I found that (unfortunately) ends friendships that would/could have developed.
- dazc 5y ago
  Sometimes the only thing in common you have is where you work and this isn't enough to keep the realtionship going after they have left. With real friends you'll have some other common experiences that help maintain the bond. So, yes, the amount of quality time spent together out of a forced situation, such as sharing office space, is a big factor.
jollybean 5y ago
Just because you're not friends doesn't mean the relationships are 'superficial'. I really enjoy the company of my work colleagues. Especially in a business setting, where it's not all 'heads down work', I think it's kind of important actually. Professionalism is resonant, being around other people lifts you up, you learn from them, are energized, hopefully in mostly positive ways. For Engineering work ... I'm worried that young folks won't have the opportunity for good mentors.
- sdevonoes 5y ago
  Well, perhaps I'm in the minority group but the best mentors I have had are: - W. Richard Stevens - Andrew S. Tanenbaum - Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie - ... Yes, I'm talking about books :)
  - ducharmdev 5y ago
    Mentors can give you feedback that books can't, though. No matter how good a person is at self-reflection, you simply can't perceive yourself outside of your own perspective. Not trying to knock reading of course, but it's no replacement for a good mentor.
    - sdevonoes 5y ago
      Fair enough. I just don't think one can find good mentors willing to help in normal jobs/companies. Perhaps in FAANGs yeah, but 99% of us, devs, do not work for FAANGs.
      - ducharmdev 5y ago
        As one of those devs in the 99%, I get that. But if you're okay with getting outside your comfort zone a bit, you can still find people to (at least informally) mentor you throughout your career. For example, I volunteer as a mentor for Code Louisville, and we actively encourage students to stay in touch even after the program when it comes to job hunting, programming questions, etc. I've also managed to find experienced devs for myself through local dev meetups, but have also had luck just messaging people on Linkedin. Sure, not all devs are going to be willing, but a lot of people respond well to basic curiosity and humility.
bonoboTP 5y ago
This kind of "anonymous" work is relatively recent. It's not how humans lived and worked for the majority of our existence. Before the industrial revolution, the vast majority of people worked in agriculture and most definitely knew who they were working with: their family, extended family and neighbors. Similarly, women were socializing while weaving clothes etc. This atomized "biorobot" view of the employee is quite new and doesn't seem very healthy.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Yeah, given the shift to strangers, I don't know why anyone would think it's strange that we aren't certain to make friends with these people.
- mLuby 5y ago
  Perhaps because until recently a "career" meant working for one company for 35 years, likely in the same city. With that kind of stability, long-term friendships can blossom. It's harder if you're changing companies every 2-3 years and cities every 5-6 (as seems common enough in Tech at least). Digital nomads are the vanguard—look to them to see what works and what doesn't.
amelius 5y ago
This is why company drinks and company outings are always so weird.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  'Oh look, people I work with every day and do my best to be professional in front of now want me to drink in front of them on my day off. This is going to be fun."
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> I'm not with these people because I want to be friends with them, I'm with them because I want to earn a living. False dichotomy. Building relationships and earning a living aren't mutually exclusive. Building healthy, lasting relationships with your peers isn't necessarily required to get a job done, but it certainly makes it more enjoyable. Of course not everyone is going to be interested in authentic relationships at work, but that doesn't mean that nobody wants to be friends at the office. If you can only view your work peers as pure business interactions, you're missing out.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
  Do you find you're still friends with a lot of people you worked with at your previous positions?
  - bitbuilder 5y ago
    As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, I can say that literally all of my close friends at this point in life were previous coworkers. Especially if you relocate away from your hometown for a job, I'm not sure why that would be surprising to anyone. You spend at least 8 hours a day with these people, it only makes sense you'd eventually build some connections with them. And as the parent post points out, it certainly makes the days more enjoyable when you've built healthy relationships with your peers. And come to think of it, most people 30+ I know seem to have friend groups of almost exclusively current or former coworkers. I don't think I'm by any means unique.
    - jghn 5y ago
      It's funny, I thought this was going the exact opposite direction when I read "As a middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years". As another middle aged dude who's been in tech for 25 years, that describes none of the people I know in my age group. Sure, some of us have actual friends that were coworkers, but it's one or two people and somewhat tangential friendship. If it were just you & I comparing our individual anecdata I'd have chalked it up to that, but this feels like perhaps there's something more going on. I suppose one explanation is that people who form close bonds with coworkers are going to be more likely to hanging out with others who form close bonds with coworkers and vice versa?
lovegoblin 5y ago
> I don't talk with 99.9% of the people I've ever worked with and don't much miss them. Maybe you don't miss them because you never talked to them.

emmap21 5y ago

Remote work fits to a small close-knitted team less than 5 people. More than that, there is so much that it's hard to fill.

silicon2401 5y ago
Depends who you ask. I have no problem with it, and I suspect plenty of others feel the same way.

tenebrisalietum 5y ago

If A can fire B or unilaterally terminate the relationship, for any reason at any time, and B needs A's money/resources, then the relationship between A and B will always be superficial, and B will do non-genuine things so A doesn't fire B.

scarface74 5y ago
I made that mistake early in my career thinking managers were my friends. I have kept in touch with former managers and tried to meet them for lunch at least once or twice a year pre Covid.
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Maybe not. I've always been frank with my 'managers'. I tell them "We both work for the company. I get support from you for information and resources. Other than that, try to stay out of my way?" As a more senior guy it works for me. Not for everybody, I get that. But its a way healthier relationship. Can they fire me? Sure. But I can get work again the next day. So go ahead, threaten and bluster manager guy. I've more than once picked up my coat and said "Are we done here?"
- tenebrisalietum 5y ago
  Yep, you've solved the problem by turning "unilateral" into "bilateral" which is preferable. We can say the method in which you solved it by decreasing the social "distance" or "context" between you and who you report to--if you are spectacular at your job and working in a field where the labor balance is in your favor, it's easy. Other possible and less optimal strategies include having a preexisting personal relationship/friendship, being related to your boss, acquiring information or other blackmail, and/or being perceived as able to successfully win a lawsuit.

wccrawford 5y ago

I'm quite an introvert. What I've found is that I tend to try to friends with my co-workers because I'm around them constantly. And I don't try to make friends anywhere else. Lately, I've been realizing that even though my coworkers like me, and I like them, they are not really my friends. Nobody who leaves the company stays in touch with me. I almost never have contact with them away from work. I share my hobby stuff with them during work hours, and they seem to enjoy hearing about it and engage with me, but none of them would actually want to join me in those hobbies away from work. This has me thinking that I should spend less time trying to engage with them, and more time trying to find local groups that share those hobbies. So, contrary to the article, I don't think "the loneliness of the modern office team member" is actually a problem. I think it's a big hint that they need to seek relationships outside of work instead.

metalliqaz 5y ago
Man, I totally could have written this. The big problem is that whole "finding local groups" thing. That just... doesn't happen. Maybe if I lived in a city, but not in the 'burbs. Not when you have a full time job and kids.
- metalliqaz 5y ago
  follow up: And you know what the crazy thing is? I just don't care about stuff like sports, but I'd happily go to a game if I liked the people I was with, for the the chance to hang out. But omg I just don't care about so many of the things that seem to bring people together. That's the curse of the mild introvert, I guess.
- the_only_law 5y ago
  Meetup gets thrown around as cliche advice for this sort of things, but in the last city I lived, majority of meetups were either very demographic specific (i.e. something like 60+, or women’s business) or fronts for MLM and other scams.
  - metalliqaz 5y ago

wayoutthere 5y ago

I definitely felt this earlier in my career. The solution for me was to stop looking to work to fill a need for purpose, and to start some creative hobbies as an outlet. This naturally got me meeting other people with similar interests. Work is work. Life is life. Personally I need boundaries and feel my life is healthier for it.

antattack 5y ago

The biggest reason for shallow work relationships is high turnover.

4ggr0 5y ago

EDIT: Should've looked at all the comments first - https://archive.is/Y7IFZ https://archive.is/Y7IFZ Someone has a non-paywalled link? Sounds like a very interesting topic.

WhompingWindows 5y ago

Alternative viewpoint: Everyone is hyper-stimulated by modern entertainment and lovable hobbies, therefore making friends at work is becoming harder to do because we're all bifurcated in our free time. Our interests used to be more basic, more shared, our community was tighter knit. Now, I feel the Internet and consumerism has allowed a massive blossoming of new hobbies, DIY, go it your own way, hang out by yourself activities. Either that, or something like online gaming, where you're finding a digital community. Especially during the pandemic, I became very used to hanging out with only my partner, and I think our bubble has amplified my introverted habits.

pkdpic_y9k 5y ago
Thats a really good point.
wussboy 5y ago
I think there's a lot of truth in your comment. I mentioned this elsewhere but as we hang out with the same people, our interests begin to align. This is what has always happened in the past and will hopefully happen again once we've realized that the Internet is death to sociality.
- cauliflower2718 5y ago
  Yes! I have found this to happen a over lockdown with my housemates. Not surprisingly, I recommend communal living.
tachyonbeam 5y ago
The pandemic is a bit different from what was before because we're not really given a choice. That being said, I agree, and I think it's not just hobbies. If you think about music, Spotify exposes people to much wider array of choices than what was there before. It used to be that people had a common cultural thread through the radio and television. Now, you can find your own niche community online, and listen to very niche music customized to your very specific preferences on Spotify. Even porn is getting increasingly niche. I find that often, even friends who like similar music genres to mine don't really appreciate tunes I share with them, because everyone has diverged so much. Politics are getting super divisive too, with no tolerance for different viewpoints. I'm not sure what's the antidote to that. I do think that in many ways, technology is driving people apart, and I'm afraid we're headed the way of Japan (hikikomori). I think some people will choose to remain socially active and others will withdraw. At some level, interacting with other human beings is challenging, it takes effort, you have to want to do it.

NikolaeVarius 5y ago

Im perfectly fine being lonely at work. Go away

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

I've got contacts with people I worked with 30 years ago. We have a bi-weekly Zoom chat for instance. Lasts for hours. Lots of fun. Friends? Sure, I've offered to come take care of them when they're having surgery, or invited to stay when the spouse is making them sleep on the couch. Even sent money a time or two when they're between jobs. Maybe its different nowadays. But coworkers used to be easy to make friends with.

msteffen 5y ago

Seems like a lot of comments are discussing how to address loneliness, so I'll share one tactic I've learned: you have to host. Everybody wants to join a meetup or club or whatever, but if you organize the event(s), and then invite people you like (from work or your kids' friends' parents) then you get the event you want and you strengthen those friendships. If you can make it happen consistently, those relationships can get quite strong over a few years, plus your friends will invite their friends and it gets better over time. The only downside is having to do event planning: clean your house (or pick a venue: park, hackerspace, church, cafe, gym, clubhouse if your apartment complex has one), email/text invitations, plan food, etc. This is a skill, though, and you get better with practice. (Edit: obviously rona makes this harder but e.g. my wife and I have a zoom call we do most mornings where we do a workout video and hang out for ~10-15 minutes. It's a lot better than nothing!)

pmoriarty 5y ago
"The only downside is having to do event planning: clean your house (or pick a venue: park, hackerspace, church, cafe, gym, clubhouse if your apartment complex has one), email/text invitations, plan food, etc. This is a skill, though, and you get better with practice." Not only is it a skill, but it's very difficult to make that sort of effort when you are depressed, which many lonely people are.
- msteffen 5y ago
  > Not only is it a skill, but it's very difficult to make that sort of effort when you are depressed, which many lonely people are. It's true. TBH to the extent I've done/helped with it, I've learned more about making it easy than doing it well. The easiest options I know about: - hike (you literally just need to agree on a trail and a time. People can bring their own food, or you can do it in the afternoon so it doesn't overlap with a meal) - hang out in a park/at the beach. Almost as easy as a hike but you do need food. This can just be pizza and drinks. Bring a barbecue and a cooler of (veggie) burgers/hot dogs, drinks, chips and dip if you want to get fancy - game night: almost the same as the park but you'd do it in your house (or apartment clubhouse). Slightly more clean-up, but food can be very easy and low-key (takeout, pizza, salad). This is easy to do regularly, too, and you can change the games depending on who's there, so it's got broad appeal. Board games are an obvious classic, and/or people can bring laptops, or you can set up a projector and an xbox. My roommates did this for years and we probably had over a hundred different guests at one point or another. People started bringing their own TVs and xboxes - dinner party/potluck: like game night, but for a group that likes to cook this can be super fun. You don't actually have to make much because there are N dishes, so you eat a 1/N portion of each. Also, if you do it regularly, sometimes everyone agrees they're too tired to cook and you just all go in on takeout and drinks, which is fun too. - group workouts: just need a gym and a time (or a park, you can do an outdoor workout) - meet at a bar: not even really hosting, but if you suggest it and get everyone to agree on a time, it actually is hosting (Finally: IME people are happy to venmo you for food if you ask in advance. Especially for recurring events this can be good to do, so that hosting stays fun for you)

deleted_account 5y ago

FEI, this is a Financial Times summary of an Insead Knowledge adaptation of an MIT Sloan Management article. Go here if you want to read the source: https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/are-your-team-members-lonely/ https://sloanreview.mit.edu/article/are-your-team-members-lo...

fungiblecog 5y ago

In my experience the office is a lonely place because it is completely fake. Everyone has to pretend to care, pretend they're making awesome progress and pretend they don't hate management. I'm a contractor precisely because it allows me to move around and avoid becoming entrenched in the fakery.