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In fall 2008 I moved from Long Island to New Hampshire (for family reasons) and found a job in a small niche B2B shop doing C# Windows apps. On my first day of

In fall 2008 I moved from Long Island to New Hampshire (for family reasons) and found a job in a small niche B2B shop doing C# Windows apps. On my first day of work, I notice the receptionist desk has a stack of McCain/Palin 2008 bumper stickers. The next couple of months were filled with employees talking non-stop about the election, from their deeply conservative point of view. Being quite progressive left-leaning this was pretty frustrating and distracting to listen to while I tried to just get some work done. They all seemed to believe Obama would send people to their door to take away their guns and assault rifles, and somehow also turn us into the Soviet Union. The thing is, these weren't bad people. They took a chance on an self-taught programmer / art-school dropout in their late 20s with 1 year of professional experience, and they treated me well. When I moved back to New York (for other dramatic family reasons), the CEO offered for me to stay at their own house. I just didn't agree with their political opinions. I think for most folks working in tech hubs its just the other way around, where they are in a left-leaning bubble and its hard to imagine another POV. Coming from someone who was on the outside, I can say for me it was at best distracting and at worst alienating, and I can see why companies want to put an end to it.

JPKab 5y ago
I worked years ago in defense contracting, and remember being treated in a hostile fashion for admitting I was an Obama supporter. Mostly good people, but super isolating when they would talk politics. And I should note, that the pattern I noticed then and notice now with my mindlessly, tribally left colleagues who are mirror images of the right wing lemmings in defense: People who are really into politics at work are mediocre at best, borderline incompetent more often. Anecdotal of course, but I honestly don't think basecamp will be impacted badly by this months down the road. I don't see a single standout amongst the folks leaving. Sorry.
- predaking 5y ago
  “I don’t see a single standout among the folks leaving” (emphasis mine) Considering that those folks include one of the Rails core contributors, the Head of Design, and the Head of Marketing, either: A) you’re mistaken in your read B) you’re not mistaken, and Basecamp made some massive hiring and staffing flaws including but not limited to who they put in leadership positions I’m not saying which is which, just pointing out the limited possibilities.
  - JPKab 5y ago
    Fair point on Rails core contrib. I was definitely wrong on that.
    - predaking 5y ago
      LOL I take it you’re not a fan of design or marketing by this response? ;) (Just having fun btw and not meaning to insult/offend)
      - JPKab 5y ago
        Indeed. I respect designers, but they can go too far (jony I've with the obsession with thinness). Basecamps business isn't at risk from that change. Marketing: No comment.
tweetle_beetle 5y ago
I think you're right, but I also think that in reality it is very difficult to draw a line between personal political discussions and company policy decisions in the modern world. Yes it's always boring when someone in the workplace makes bold political statements that no one asked for, but what happens when the company you work for outsources jobs abroad, is making questionable HR decisions, etc. I'm not sure it's right to say that any discussion about anything political is banned when a company policy that affects an employee can be political in nature. Creating a positive and productive culture is hard. I don't have all the answers, but bans seem like a very blunt instrument.
- chipgap98 5y ago
  Yeah I think you are making the important parts. The issues don't sounds like there were long winded debates about left wing and right wing ideologies. If someone is being racist am I not allowed to bring acknowledge that because it is political?
- vp8989 5y ago
  "I'm not sure it's right to say that any discussion about anything political is banned when a company policy that affects an employee can be political in nature." Why do you think that's the policy? Did you read the blog posts? According to DHH's post, political discussion that is related to the business is allowed. Any other political discussion is encouraged but must take place in a dedicated non-work channel. The policy is also not zero-tolerance.
  - tweetle_beetle 5y ago
    https://world.hey.com/dhh/basecamp-s-new-etiquette-regarding-societal-politics-at-work-b44bef69 https://world.hey.com/dhh/basecamp-s-new-etiquette-regarding... > Therefore, we’re asking everyone, including Jason and me, to refrain from using our company Basecamp or HEY to discuss societal politics at work effective immediately. > This includes everything from sharing political stories in campfire, using message threads to elucidate others on political beliefs that go beyond the topic directly, or performing political advocacy in general. > ... > Note that we will continue to engage in politics that directly relate to our business or products. Not so interested in nitpicking about whether banning is semantically correct - I think you know what I meant. What's more interesting is the awkward situation they have created, which I'd argue is a false dichotomy - where does "societal politics" end and "politics that directly relate to our business or products" start?
nph5667 5y ago
I remember the same thing in 2000 when my colleague brought "Sore/Loserman" sign mocking (unknowingly) my candidates. I could not help but think less of him. I am not proud of that, but that was it. It's inside our DNA, to live in tribes. At work, it'd be better if we belong to the same tribe. Please, keep your other tribes outside.
- someguydave 5y ago
  consider not labeling any politician as "my candidate"
ascorbic 5y ago
What lots of people seem to be missing here is that this wasn't that sort of political discussion at all. It wasn't about Trump/Biden, or even policy issues. It was purely about internal actions of employees and leadership. There's a world of difference between presidential campaign posters behind reception, and discussions about the handling of a list of customers' names. The problem with jumping to blanket "no politics" rules is that it prevents any nuance. https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basec...
- scientismer 5y ago
  Pretty sure it was about politics, because some employees felt it was an identity politics issue and the list of funny names would lead directly to holocaust. DEI issues were also directly mentioned in the blog posts.
  - ascorbic 5y ago
    That's a pretty disingenuous reading of the meaning of the ADL pyramid of hate. All it says is that tolerating one level of discrimination makes the next level easier. So in this example, stereotyping makes it easier to ridicule.
    - scientismer 5y ago
      That's the literal interpretation given by DHH in his blog, when describing what happened. Personally I don't see how it is wrong, it literally says "first step to genocide". In any case, discussing whether it leads to genocide or not is clearly about political beliefs.
      - deanCommie 5y ago
        Yes, and DHH's interpretation is completely uncharitable and naive, and I don't know why you are buying into it. The ADL's goal is to fight anti-semitism. The Holocaust opened some people's eyes about their anti-semitism and look to a new path. But in others it simply enabled and licensed their own prejudices because it allowed them to think "Well whatever I think/say/do isn't THAT bad." The ADL's pyramid shows that genocide doesn't happen overnight with the snap of the fingers. Each incremental step is minor and ignorable. But it starts with stereotyping and biased attitudes.

JPKab 5y ago

I worked years ago in defense contracting, and remember being treated in a hostile fashion for admitting I was an Obama supporter. Mostly good people, but super isolating when they would talk politics. And I should note, that the pattern I noticed then and notice now with my mindlessly, tribally left colleagues who are mirror images of the right wing lemmings in defense: People who are really into politics at work are mediocre at best, borderline incompetent more often. Anecdotal of course, but I honestly don't think basecamp will be impacted badly by this months down the road. I don't see a single standout amongst the folks leaving. Sorry.

predaking 5y ago
“I don’t see a single standout among the folks leaving” (emphasis mine) Considering that those folks include one of the Rails core contributors, the Head of Design, and the Head of Marketing, either: A) you’re mistaken in your read B) you’re not mistaken, and Basecamp made some massive hiring and staffing flaws including but not limited to who they put in leadership positions I’m not saying which is which, just pointing out the limited possibilities.
- JPKab 5y ago
  Fair point on Rails core contrib. I was definitely wrong on that.
  - predaking 5y ago
    LOL I take it you’re not a fan of design or marketing by this response? ;) (Just having fun btw and not meaning to insult/offend)
    - JPKab 5y ago
      Indeed. I respect designers, but they can go too far (jony I've with the obsession with thinness). Basecamps business isn't at risk from that change. Marketing: No comment.

tweetle_beetle 5y ago

I think you're right, but I also think that in reality it is very difficult to draw a line between personal political discussions and company policy decisions in the modern world. Yes it's always boring when someone in the workplace makes bold political statements that no one asked for, but what happens when the company you work for outsources jobs abroad, is making questionable HR decisions, etc. I'm not sure it's right to say that any discussion about anything political is banned when a company policy that affects an employee can be political in nature. Creating a positive and productive culture is hard. I don't have all the answers, but bans seem like a very blunt instrument.

chipgap98 5y ago
Yeah I think you are making the important parts. The issues don't sounds like there were long winded debates about left wing and right wing ideologies. If someone is being racist am I not allowed to bring acknowledge that because it is political?
vp8989 5y ago
"I'm not sure it's right to say that any discussion about anything political is banned when a company policy that affects an employee can be political in nature." Why do you think that's the policy? Did you read the blog posts? According to DHH's post, political discussion that is related to the business is allowed. Any other political discussion is encouraged but must take place in a dedicated non-work channel. The policy is also not zero-tolerance.
- tweetle_beetle 5y ago
  https://world.hey.com/dhh/basecamp-s-new-etiquette-regarding-societal-politics-at-work-b44bef69 https://world.hey.com/dhh/basecamp-s-new-etiquette-regarding... > Therefore, we’re asking everyone, including Jason and me, to refrain from using our company Basecamp or HEY to discuss societal politics at work effective immediately. > This includes everything from sharing political stories in campfire, using message threads to elucidate others on political beliefs that go beyond the topic directly, or performing political advocacy in general. > ... > Note that we will continue to engage in politics that directly relate to our business or products. Not so interested in nitpicking about whether banning is semantically correct - I think you know what I meant. What's more interesting is the awkward situation they have created, which I'd argue is a false dichotomy - where does "societal politics" end and "politics that directly relate to our business or products" start?

nph5667 5y ago

I remember the same thing in 2000 when my colleague brought "Sore/Loserman" sign mocking (unknowingly) my candidates. I could not help but think less of him. I am not proud of that, but that was it. It's inside our DNA, to live in tribes. At work, it'd be better if we belong to the same tribe. Please, keep your other tribes outside.

someguydave 5y ago
consider not labeling any politician as "my candidate"

ascorbic 5y ago

What lots of people seem to be missing here is that this wasn't that sort of political discussion at all. It wasn't about Trump/Biden, or even policy issues. It was purely about internal actions of employees and leadership. There's a world of difference between presidential campaign posters behind reception, and discussions about the handling of a list of customers' names. The problem with jumping to blanket "no politics" rules is that it prevents any nuance. https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basecamp https://www.platformer.news/p/-what-really-happened-at-basec...

scientismer 5y ago
Pretty sure it was about politics, because some employees felt it was an identity politics issue and the list of funny names would lead directly to holocaust. DEI issues were also directly mentioned in the blog posts.
- ascorbic 5y ago
  That's a pretty disingenuous reading of the meaning of the ADL pyramid of hate. All it says is that tolerating one level of discrimination makes the next level easier. So in this example, stereotyping makes it easier to ridicule.
  - scientismer 5y ago
    That's the literal interpretation given by DHH in his blog, when describing what happened. Personally I don't see how it is wrong, it literally says "first step to genocide". In any case, discussing whether it leads to genocide or not is clearly about political beliefs.
    - deanCommie 5y ago
      Yes, and DHH's interpretation is completely uncharitable and naive, and I don't know why you are buying into it. The ADL's goal is to fight anti-semitism. The Holocaust opened some people's eyes about their anti-semitism and look to a new path. But in others it simply enabled and licensed their own prejudices because it allowed them to think "Well whatever I think/say/do isn't THAT bad." The ADL's pyramid shows that genocide doesn't happen overnight with the snap of the fingers. Each incremental step is minor and ignorable. But it starts with stereotyping and biased attitudes.