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Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should pro

Flip that. What's the social value of criminalizing any drug consumption? Profit and advertisement of these products should be banned, and the state should provide addicts with clean supplies at-cost to out compete criminal enterprises. The amount of violence this would avoid in the Americas is staggering, and clearly desirable.

grphtrdr 5y ago
I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.
- ianai 5y ago
  Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.
  - randompwd 5y ago
    ...or force them to quadruple down on alternative income streams such as human smuggling instead of drug smuggling.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      Are the cartels facing a labour shortage or something and sticking to their core competency and opting-out of other industries?
- Gravey 5y ago
  Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels? With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Canada’s marijuana legalization has lead to 2 things: 1. A big (and increasing) shift into purchasing from the legal market 2. A price crash on the illegal market. Like half the dollars per ounce going into the black market. No real sign of increased consumption. And marijuana isn’t this cool and exciting thing anymore. It’s just there if you want it, otherwise carryon.
    - Gravey 5y ago
      So there is a big difference between legalization and decriminalization. I was asking about the latter. While I can see some of the benefits of decriminalization (easier to provide help to those who need it, enforcement can target distributors rather than users, etc), it really just seems like a political half measure to me.
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        Yes, and I fear when decriminalization leads to civil penalties instead, it leads to wonky enforcement because it becomes about revenue (fines).
awillen 5y ago
At the very minimum we should immediately legalize anything that's clearly less dangerous than alcohol (which is a lot of stuff given that alcohol is very dangerous/destructive). Marijuana, most hallucinogens, etc. Anyone who is arguing that marijuana, MDMA, etc. should not be legalized is an absolute hypocrite unless they're also campaigning to bring back prohibition of alcohol.
- dTal 5y ago
  Devil's advocate - it is not necessarily the case that the social harm of a drug is matched by the personal harm. Arguably, the law has more business policing the social harm than the personal harm. Maybe it happens to be that alcohol - while poisonous - strengthens social bonds and is an overall net good, while cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV. Indeed, I believe this is a popular counterculture "conspiracy theory" - that the drugs that are illegal are the ones that cause the user to question the structure of society, in particular competitive capitalism. I'm not endorsing any of the above - just pointing out that there are other reasons one might want a drug to be illegal than mere medical danger.
  - alpineidyll3 5y ago
    I agree you're onto something. There must be some reason society loves the war on drugs. I've always felt it was a tribal ritual of control and denial. Similar to food prohibitions that exist in many religions (kosher food, haram
  - wmichelin 5y ago
    > cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV You sound like your knowledge of cannabis is from anti-drug TV commercials. Speak for yourself, cannabis can definitely be a social drug. People are just forced to do it in the privacy of their own homes due to prohibition.
    - meowface 5y ago
      That's not the point they're trying to make. You should re-read their post in full. It's a meta-level discussion, not an object-level one.

grphtrdr 5y ago

I think we are at the point in the United States that we almost have a moral responsibility to decriminalize all drugs just to assist with defunding the Mexican cartels. When you add that in with what it would do to violence in the US directly, I don't see how someone can argue the other side from a moral perspective.

ianai 5y ago
Agreed. Want to make serious strides on illegal immigration to the US? Remove the funding of the cartels.
- randompwd 5y ago
  ...or force them to quadruple down on alternative income streams such as human smuggling instead of drug smuggling.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Are the cartels facing a labour shortage or something and sticking to their core competency and opting-out of other industries?
Gravey 5y ago
Could you explain how decriminalization helps to defund the cartels? With legalization comes regulation and better control over the supply chain. I don’t see how decriminalization accomplishes anything other than saving court costs/costs of imprisonment.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Canada’s marijuana legalization has lead to 2 things: 1. A big (and increasing) shift into purchasing from the legal market 2. A price crash on the illegal market. Like half the dollars per ounce going into the black market. No real sign of increased consumption. And marijuana isn’t this cool and exciting thing anymore. It’s just there if you want it, otherwise carryon.
  - Gravey 5y ago
    So there is a big difference between legalization and decriminalization. I was asking about the latter. While I can see some of the benefits of decriminalization (easier to provide help to those who need it, enforcement can target distributors rather than users, etc), it really just seems like a political half measure to me.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      Yes, and I fear when decriminalization leads to civil penalties instead, it leads to wonky enforcement because it becomes about revenue (fines).

awillen 5y ago

At the very minimum we should immediately legalize anything that's clearly less dangerous than alcohol (which is a lot of stuff given that alcohol is very dangerous/destructive). Marijuana, most hallucinogens, etc. Anyone who is arguing that marijuana, MDMA, etc. should not be legalized is an absolute hypocrite unless they're also campaigning to bring back prohibition of alcohol.

dTal 5y ago
Devil's advocate - it is not necessarily the case that the social harm of a drug is matched by the personal harm. Arguably, the law has more business policing the social harm than the personal harm. Maybe it happens to be that alcohol - while poisonous - strengthens social bonds and is an overall net good, while cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV. Indeed, I believe this is a popular counterculture "conspiracy theory" - that the drugs that are illegal are the ones that cause the user to question the structure of society, in particular competitive capitalism. I'm not endorsing any of the above - just pointing out that there are other reasons one might want a drug to be illegal than mere medical danger.
- alpineidyll3 5y ago
  I agree you're onto something. There must be some reason society loves the war on drugs. I've always felt it was a tribal ritual of control and denial. Similar to food prohibitions that exist in many religions (kosher food, haram
- wmichelin 5y ago
  > cannabis - though relatively harmless - causes people to space out uselessly in front of the TV You sound like your knowledge of cannabis is from anti-drug TV commercials. Speak for yourself, cannabis can definitely be a social drug. People are just forced to do it in the privacy of their own homes due to prohibition.
  - meowface 5y ago
    That's not the point they're trying to make. You should re-read their post in full. It's a meta-level discussion, not an object-level one.